Gun Politics

[Paingod]

An unyielding, irrational "Yes" is just as bad as an unyielding, irrational "No."

I know division is all the rage these days but it doesn't result in meaningful, positive change.

The NRA isn't going to suddenly learn moderation. "No" is their platform. If anything is going to change and the power that "No" wields needs to be negated, it seems a polar opposite is required. If a congressperson gets 100 calls for "No" and 100 calls for "Yes" with $1m in support from "No" and $1m in support from "Yes" that leaves them to vote based on their conscience, doesn't it?

[Max Peck]

An unyielding, irrational "Yes" is just as bad as an unyielding, irrational "No."

I know division is all the rage these days but it doesn't result in meaningful, positive change.

The NRA isn't going to suddenly learn moderation. "No" is their platform. If anything is going to change and the power that "No" wields needs to be negated, it seems a polar opposite is required. If a congressperson gets 100 calls for "No" and 100 calls for "Yes" with $1m in support from "No" and $1m in support from "Yes" that leaves them to vote based on their conscience, doesn't it?

It would mean that they maximize their intake by maintaining the status quo.

[YellowKing]

Really this issue is never going to be solved from the top down. It has to be solved from the bottom up. Which is going to require a real cultural shift that I don't see happening until maybe we're having a mass shooting as the major headline every week. Apparently Americans are OK with dozens of people getting gunned down once every couple of months or so.

I mean hell, if we can't get a change to bump stock laws after 58 people are killed and over 500 wounded, and WITH the consent of the NRA, then we are totally fucked.The American people just don't give a shit.

[Smoove_B]

I mean hell, if we can't get a change to bump stock laws after 58 people are killed and over 500 wounded, and WITH the consent of the NRA, then we are totally fucked.The American people just don't give a shit.

You can read more here, but the end quote states what I've thought since it happened:

After Britain had a mass shooting in 1987, the country instituted strict gun control laws. So did Australia after a 1996 shooting. But the United States has repeatedly faced the same calculus and determined that relatively unregulated gun ownership is worth the cost to society.

That choice, more than any statistic or regulation, is what most sets the United States apart.

“In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate,” Dan Hodges, a British journalist, wrote in a post on Twitter two years ago, referring to the 2012 attack that killed 20 young students at an elementary school in Connecticut. “Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”

[Kraken]

Really this issue is never going to be solved from the top down. It has to be solved from the bottom up.

Agree completely. MA has some of the toughest gun laws in the country and is near the bottom for gun violence. We also have almost no pro-gun culture. If you could impose our laws on a free-fire state like TX, you would not see good results. Strict control only works where people want it.

How do you change the culture? IDK. I suspect it will be generational; maybe the Millennials will have a saner prevailing opinion, or maybe it will be their children. I'm sure it will also be regional; the reddest states are never going to change.

Popular culture might be a good place to start. The last two episodes of The Walking Dead were orgies of gunplay. As long as we enjoy entertainments that center around solving problems with the most and biggest guns, I don't see attitudes changing much in the real world.

[noxiousdog]

Really this issue is never going to be solved from the top down. It has to be solved from the bottom up. Which is going to require a real cultural shift that I don't see happening until maybe we're having a mass shooting as the major headline every week. Apparently Americans are OK with dozens of people getting gunned down once every couple of months or so.

I mean hell, if we can't get a change to bump stock laws after 58 people are killed and over 500 wounded, and WITH the consent of the NRA, then we are totally fucked.The American people just don't give a shit.

FWIW, I asked for a response from some rabid gun rights folks and they simply don't believe the government can protect them and therefore don't want their rights curtailed. Things like this most recently one, just cement their belief. Had the government done it's job with the existing laws, that guy wouldn't have been able to do what he did. The "Fast and Furious" sting operation is another example.

So, if you want these folks to embrace more gun laws, you're going to have to convince them the next law is going to work better than the existing 300 federal and state gun laws.

edit: Related Vox Article

[Paingod]

I can see that being too true.

Gun fanatics just got big time 15-minutes style proof that ownership and carrying are justified.

[hepcat]

So did gun control advocates though. Remember, all the guns involved were purchased from a gun store.

[Rip]

So did gun control advocates though. Remember, all the guns involved were purchased from a gun store.

Despite being a textbook case of someone who should not have been able to under existing laws.

It is interesting that the people who push for these laws the hardest are the ones who push back hardest against the enforcement of laws and are the most critical of the people that are expected to enforce them.

[hepcat]

It's more interesting to me that you're getting "the people who push for these laws the hardest are the ones who push back hardest against the enforcement of laws" from my post. Considering the well documented stance of the NRA over the last few decades, I'd say the opposite is true.

[LawBeefaroni]

I mean hell, if we can't get a change to bump stock laws after 58 people are killed and over 500 wounded, and WITH the consent of the NRA, then we are totally fucked.The American people just don't give a shit.

Here's he thing. Bump stocks are mall ninja shit. The NRA should have no problem with their ban on a practical level. However, they are hamstrung by their need for "No" on an idealogical level. This should be a weakness to exploit, not to emulate.

[Carpet_pissr]

How?

[Pyperkub]

An oldie but a goodie:

In testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee today, National Rifle Association C.E.O. Wayne LaPierre warned that the N.R.A. would vigorously oppose any legislation that “limits the sale, purchase, or ownership of politicians.”

“Politicians pose no danger to the public if used correctly,” said Mr. LaPierre, who claims to have over two hundred politicians in his personal collection. “Everyone hears about the bad guys in Congress. Well, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a vote is a good guy with a vote. I’m proud to be the owner of many of those guys.”

[Smoove_B]

Here's he thing. Bump stocks are mall ninja shit. The NRA should have no problem with their ban on a practical level. However, they are hamstrung by their need for "No" on an idealogical level. This should be a weakness to exploit, not to emulate.

So let's take a page from the conservative handbook and come at the problem from the side - like how they try to undermine same-sex marriage or abortion. Instead of banning bump stocks, let's ban the specific polymer that bump stocks are made out of. You can still buy one, but the manufacturers will need to create it out of something else. And then after they go through the process of coming up with a new material, we'll ban that too. Eventually it will become so difficult or expensive to own, few will.

[YellowKing]

Just a friendly reminder that we almost had Sandy Hook 2 occur yesterday, saved only by a school going on lockdown. I'm sure this incident will get forgotten within a couple of days since dozens of elementary school kids managed to avoid being gunned down. (If they had been gunned down, it would have probably taken an entire week to get over it!)

But again, nothing to see here, folks. Just the price of doing business in 'MURRICA.

[msteelers]

Just a friendly reminder that we almost had Sandy Hook 2 occur yesterday, saved only by a school going on lockdown. I'm sure this incident will get forgotten within a couple of days since dozens of elementary school kids managed to avoid being gunned down. (If they had been gunned down, it would have probably taken an entire week to get over it!)

But again, nothing to see here, folks. Just the price of doing business in 'MURRICA.

And the best part was the Trump just sent out the exact same tweet he did after the Texas church shooting. He didn't even bother to change the location! Seriously.

When we copy and paste our sympathy tweets, well... we're just fucked I guess.

[Carpet_pissr]

Obviously the answer is to arm every elementary school kid. Instead of “an iPad for every child” it should be “a Glock for every child”. Complete with Dora and Sponge Bob holsters.

[Scoop20906]

Just a friendly reminder that we almost had Sandy Hook 2 occur yesterday, saved only by a school going on lockdown. I'm sure this incident will get forgotten within a couple of days since dozens of elementary school kids managed to avoid being gunned down. (If they had been gunned down, it would have probably taken an entire week to get over it!)

But again, nothing to see here, folks. Just the price of doing business in 'MURRICA.

And the best part was the Trump just sent out the exact same tweet he did after the Texas church shooting. He didn't even bother to change the location! Seriously.

When we copy and paste our sympathy tweets, well... we're just fucked I guess.

And the tweet is still up too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Carpet_pissr]

Preposterous golem does not give a fuck about dead babbies. Was he, or his image in danger or being attacked? No? Fuck off.

[em2nought]

Obviously the answer is to arm every elementary school kid. Instead of “an iPad for every child” it should be “a Glock for every child”. Complete with Dora and Sponge Bob holsters.

It would be better to arm the little tykes with Smith & Wesson M&P Shields as they're all made in the USA and would fit their little hands better than a Glock. Why do you hate America and want to send money to Austria?

[Moliere]

5 Reforms To Gun Laws That Would Actually Make A Difference

1. Clarify Which Records Must Be Submitted to NICS
2. Prosecute Buyers for False Application Information
3. Cross-Reference with DHS
4. Increase NICS Investigation Time
5. Expand NICS for Broader Use

[Enough]

Before we get too crazy about celebrating bipartisan gun control, let's come back to earth.

But no action has been taken by Congress. Instead, Republican lawmakers punted the responsibility to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which in turn says it cannot regulate bump stocks unless Congress changes the law.

The only thing that has happened with bump stocks since the Las Vegas shooting is that a leading manufacturer of the device, Slide Fire, resumed selling them. Slide Fire had announced in the wake of the shooting that it was temporarily suspending sales.

In 2010, ATF said that it did not need to regulate bump stocks because they do not fit the legal definition of a machine gun.

But Sen. Dianne Feinstein (Calif.), the ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, said that at a committee briefing on Oct. 12, ATF officials told senators that the agency had concluded it lacks the authority to ban bump stocks.

In addition, current and former ATF agents wrote a letter to lawmakers, saying that it is Congress that must take action. ­Under the law, they wrote, attaching a bump stock to a gun “does not make it a machine gun,” so ATF cannot regulate it.

“The law is very clear, and it does not currently allow ATF to regulate such accessories,” ­Michael R. Bouchard, former ATF assistant director and now president of ATF Association, wrote in the letter, which was obtained by The Washington Post.

Do thoughts and prayers help pass legislation too? What a bunch of ever-livin horsepoo.

[Enough]

This week's 99% Invisible rocks! They are making the exact argument I have been trying to make here for ages (and doing a much better job, heh) that we need to sick the public health researchers and insurance industry on gun deaths like we have with auto safety.

[LawBeefaroni]

House just passed the concealed carry reciprocity bill. It would allow and require states to recognize a legal CCW from another state.

The Republican-controlled chamber passed the bill by 231-198, in their first major gun legislation since a 2012 Connecticut school massacre.

Republicans said the bill would allow gun owners to travel without having to worry about conflicting state laws.

The measure will need a handful of Democrats' support to pass the Senate.

To make the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act more palatable, Republicans have included measures to strengthen the national background check system.

[Aside]. I'm sure out Canadian friends just love how the BBC puts US news under "world-us-canada".[/aside]

[Isgrimnur]

"We're all for State's rights, except when we're not!"

[LawBeefaroni]

"We're all for State's rights, except when we're not!"

They can still have their own onerous CCW requirements. They just have to honor other states'. Kind of like driver's licenses.


Or marriages.



This is a big one for the NRA but they still want "constitutional carry" in every state.

[Punisher]

"We're all for State's rights, except when we're not!"

They can still have their own onerous CCW requirements. They just have to honor other states'. Kind of like driver's licenses.
Or marriages.

This is a big one for the NRA but they still want "constitutional carry" in every state.

If this goes all the way, it will in function be constitutional carry. The States onerous CCW requirements will be useless/null and void. Mostly because there are plenty of states that issue to out of state citizens. EX: I live in NJ (and have an NJ CCW), but I also have a PA CCW. The NJ one took me almost a year to get. The PA one took me 5 hours.. and it only took that long because their computer was down. Once it was up, the whole process took 1/2 hour. So, with the new law, I could go to PA and get one easily, then use it anywhere.

[malchior]

Sort of also awesome to note they never took up a bump stock ban. There is a lot of uncertainty around whether existing law can be used to enforce it.

As to CCW it is clear they'd like to stomp on blue states choosing on their own. Disclaimer: I'm also not a fan of how NJ does it presently. But it doesn't mean I want the Federales saying that the lowest common denominator wins. IMO - this is another political attack on blue by red.

[Remus West]

"We're all for State's rights, except when we're not!"

They can still have their own onerous CCW requirements. They just have to honor other states'. Kind of like driver's licenses.
Or marriages.

This is a big one for the NRA but they still want "constitutional carry" in every state.

If this goes all the way, it will in function be constitutional carry. The States onerous CCW requirements will be useless/null and void. Mostly because there are plenty of states that issue to out of state citizens. EX: I live in NJ (and have an NJ CCW), but I also have a PA CCW. The NJ one took me almost a year to get. The PA one took me 5 hours.. and it only took that long because their computer was down. Once it was up, the whole process took 1/2 hour. So, with the new law, I could go to PA and get one easily, then use it anywhere.

Think of the sad gun owners that live more than a short drive from a state with loose regulation. Do you want them to have to travel further to ignore their own states laws? You anti-2nd amendment loonie. Sheesh.

[LawBeefaroni]

"We're all for State's rights, except when we're not!"

They can still have their own onerous CCW requirements. They just have to honor other states'. Kind of like driver's licenses.
Or marriages.

This is a big one for the NRA but they still want "constitutional carry" in every state.

If this goes all the way, it will in function be constitutional carry. The States onerous CCW requirements will be useless/null and void. Mostly because there are plenty of states that issue to out of state citizens. EX: I live in NJ (and have an NJ CCW), but I also have a PA CCW. The NJ one took me almost a year to get. The PA one took me 5 hours.. and it only took that long because their computer was down. Once it was up, the whole process took 1/2 hour. So, with the new law, I could go to PA and get one easily, then use it anywhere.

I think that as a resident of NJ, your NJ status would trump the out-of-state CCW just as it does now. And/or all out-of-state issued CCWs would be null and void. It might work in 49 states but not the one you reside in.


I can get a Virginia CCW online in a few minutes but it's no good for me in my home state (and wouldn't be even if my state recognized it).

[Punisher]

"We're all for State's rights, except when we're not!"

They can still have their own onerous CCW requirements. They just have to honor other states'. Kind of like driver's licenses.
Or marriages.

This is a big one for the NRA but they still want "constitutional carry" in every state.

If this goes all the way, it will in function be constitutional carry. The States onerous CCW requirements will be useless/null and void. Mostly because there are plenty of states that issue to out of state citizens. EX: I live in NJ (and have an NJ CCW), but I also have a PA CCW. The NJ one took me almost a year to get. The PA one took me 5 hours.. and it only took that long because their computer was down. Once it was up, the whole process took 1/2 hour. So, with the new law, I could go to PA and get one easily, then use it anywhere.

I think that as a resident of NJ, your NJ status would trump the out-of-state CCW just as it does now. And/or all out-of-state issued CCWs would be null and void. It might work in 49 states but not the one you reside in.


I can get a Virginia CCW online in a few minutes but it's no good for me in my home state (and wouldn't be even if my state recognized it).

I dont think the last part is not true. If your state recognizes another states CCW through reciprocity, then yes, yours should be valid. NJ, doesn't have reciprocity with any other states, but some other states will recognize a NJ CCW.
With the new law, it seems to be a blanket statement to recognize other states CCW. Don't think it says anything about being a citizen of that other state.
I do think that we could use a single CCW universal license, but I also think you should be required to go through a background check, gun safety course and yearly qualification.

[LawBeefaroni]

With the new law, it seems to be a blanket statement to recognize other states CCW. Don't think it says anything about being a citizen of that other state.

It's not the other state. If you're a NJ resident, your PA CCW will work in 49 states. Just not NJ.

I could be wrong but I don't see them eliminating the home state rule. Otherwise everyone would just get VA CCWs and that's it.

I do think that we could use a single CCW universal license, but I also think you should be required to go through a background check, gun safety course and yearly qualification.

Makes sense. The NRA hates you though.

[Punisher]

With the new law, it seems to be a blanket statement to recognize other states CCW. Don't think it says anything about being a citizen of that other state.

It's not the other state. If you're a NJ resident, your PA CCW will work in 49 states. Just not NJ.

I could be wrong but I don't see them eliminating the home state rule. Otherwise everyone would just get VA CCWs and that's it.

I do think that we could use a single CCW universal license, but I also think you should be required to go through a background check, gun safety course and yearly qualification.

Makes sense. The NRA hates you though.

For the out of state CCW, I guess we'd have to wait until everything is final and see what the actual wording is. That will be the big thing... Then we have to wait until it gets tested in court probably.

As for the NRA, I don't usually follow politics at all. Are they really against background checks and training? Cause, I do consider myself "pro gun", but I'm not unreasonable..

[Carpet_pissr]

Are you an NRA member?

[Moliere]

Westgate began testing a discreet weapon-sensing device called the Patscan Cognitive Microwave Radar. Marketed by Canadian security outfit PatriotOne, the Patscan CMR combines short-range radar with machine learning algorithms to scan individual guests for guns, knives, and bombs in real time—without forcing them to line up and walk through metal detectors. And unlike the giant, whole-body scanners you see in places like airports, Patscan units are small enough to hide inside existing infrastructure, from walls and doorways to turnstiles and elevator banks. Most people will never realize they're there—and that's exactly how Westgate wants it.

[Daehawk]

Are you an NRA member?

I was. I joined after the banning of ammo types. But they nagged me to death over donations for all their crazy shit so I never renewed. They still send me a NRA badge but I dont pay them now. Buncha greedy asshats.

[Moliere]

Buncha greedy asshats.

Really? This is every nonprofit and charity. Don't ever give money to a political party unless you want to be bugged every 5 minutes for more money.

[Punisher]

Are you an NRA member?

Nope.. Thought about it in the past but didn't see a need.

[Fitzy]

The wild west may not have been so wild

The article is from Smithsonian Magazine, so it should be free of pay walls for now. However, it's an interesting historical take on gun control, so it's possible the White House will have it removed.

The article sums up the gun control laws of the Wild West, and it seems they were highly prevalent in the towns. The laws required people coming into town to lock up their guns, either at the law enforcement office or a hotel. The Tombstone version contributed to the Shootout at OK Corral. I'd never heard that before, but I never read deeply into the Old West either. The article concentrates on a few of the more famous cowboy towns.

There is also a discussion on murder statistics. There weren't anywhere near as many as John Wayne led me to believe.

To sum up, the idea of a wild, gun slinging, open carrying, Wild West = Myth. At least in town. The legal and social push was for responsible gun ownership. Leave the gun at home when drinking in the saloon and whoring.

[The Meal]

Way cool! Thanks for sharing.