Gun Politics

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em2nought
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by em2nought »

Max Peck wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:56 am
killbot737 wrote: Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:08 pm If you come for the guns by force, you will be sorry.
Probably not as sorry as you would be. If Trump sends someone to take your guns, they'll bring their big-boy toys. :coffee:
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by $iljanus »

hepcat wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:57 am Trump right after the Florida shooting: I'm not afraid of the NRA.

Trump today: I'm afraid of the NRA.
We should be thankful for a president that has the courage to stand by his rapidly changing convictions...
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni »

$iljanus wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:22 pm
hepcat wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:57 am Trump right after the Florida shooting: I'm not afraid of the NRA.

Trump today: I'm afraid of the NRA.
We should be thankful for a president that has the courage to stand by his rapidly changing convictions...
If you take both sides of an issue, you can say you were right in a few weeks when no one remembers what you said because they're wading through all the bullshit you've generated in the interim. Do it all the time and you can convince yourself that you are always right.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by $iljanus »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
$iljanus wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:22 pm
hepcat wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:57 am Trump right after the Florida shooting: I'm not afraid of the NRA.

Trump today: I'm afraid of the NRA.
We should be thankful for a president that has the courage to stand by his rapidly changing convictions...
If you take both sides of an issue, you can say you were right in a few weeks when no one remembers what you said because they're wading through all the bullshit you've generated in the interim. Do it all the time and you can convince yourself that you are always right.
Like a political Schrödinger's cat. Just have to translate it into some quantum physics type equation...
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Kraken »

Max Peck wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:42 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:29 pm
Max Peck wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:56 am
killbot737 wrote: Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:08 pm If you come for the guns by force, you will be sorry.
Probably not as sorry as you would be. If Trump sends someone to take your guns, they'll bring their big-boy toys. :coffee:
If it we're to happen, how it would happen is local law enforcement would be tasked with the job. If they have military surplus gear like Bradleys they'll use them but there will be a lot of regular cops sent to front doors with the very unenviable job of collecting firearms. Only after that goes predictably pear, will they send in federal units. National Guard commanded by the ATF? FBI? I have no idea.

And honestly, despite all the hype about "assault weapons", even just a regular old bolt action rifle is not something LEOs want to face. So unless by "big boy toys" you mean MBTs, drones and Hellfire missiles, it could easily get ugly for law enforcement. They'd ultimately win every time, sure, but it'd be ugly. And that's why no one wants to do it.
In the fantasy world where they come to pry your guns from your cold, dead hands, one presumes they will take advantage of the available resources to do a proper job of it. In the real world it simply isn't going to happen, so I didn't give the logistics much thought beyond pondering whether the typical gun-owner has anything that will counter an armored personnel carrier. :)
Yeah, gun confiscation is a conservative/survivalist/militia kind of fantasy. Eventually there will be a ban on new sales with voluntary buy-backs with ever-tighter restrictions on use and storage, and then it will be a matter of attrition. Given the number of weapons already in circulation and the durability of guns it will take a century to reduce them to rarity.

All the more reason to get started now.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by ImLawBoy »

Kraken wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:21 pm
Max Peck wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:42 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:29 pm
Max Peck wrote: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:56 am
killbot737 wrote: Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:08 pm If you come for the guns by force, you will be sorry.
Probably not as sorry as you would be. If Trump sends someone to take your guns, they'll bring their big-boy toys. :coffee:
If it we're to happen, how it would happen is local law enforcement would be tasked with the job. If they have military surplus gear like Bradleys they'll use them but there will be a lot of regular cops sent to front doors with the very unenviable job of collecting firearms. Only after that goes predictably pear, will they send in federal units. National Guard commanded by the ATF? FBI? I have no idea.

And honestly, despite all the hype about "assault weapons", even just a regular old bolt action rifle is not something LEOs want to face. So unless by "big boy toys" you mean MBTs, drones and Hellfire missiles, it could easily get ugly for law enforcement. They'd ultimately win every time, sure, but it'd be ugly. And that's why no one wants to do it.
In the fantasy world where they come to pry your guns from your cold, dead hands, one presumes they will take advantage of the available resources to do a proper job of it. In the real world it simply isn't going to happen, so I didn't give the logistics much thought beyond pondering whether the typical gun-owner has anything that will counter an armored personnel carrier. :)
Yeah, gun confiscation is a conservative/survivalist/militia kind of fantasy. Eventually there will be a ban on new sales with voluntary buy-backs with ever-tighter restrictions on use and storage, and then it will be a matter of attrition. Given the number of weapons already in circulation and the durability of guns it will take a century to reduce them to rarity.

All the more reason to get started now.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by em2nought »

Uh oh, ban foot bridges. :wink:
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Isgrimnur »

Buzzfeed
Democrats and Republicans in Congress have agreed on legislation that would open the doors to the federal government studying the effects gun violence, softening decades of legal language that encouraged the Centers for Disease Control to leave the issue alone.

A $1.3 trillion kitchen sink spending bill that must pass by Friday to avoid another government shutdown will not change gun control laws, but does contain two key measures to research gun violence and beef up background checks.
...
The House Rules Committee’s bill, which will need to pass both chambers of Congress this week, contains guidance language that is designed to embolden the CDC. “While appropriations language prohibits the CDC and other agencies from using appropriated funding to advocate or promote gun control, the Secretary of Health and Human Services has stated the CDC has the authority to conduct research on the causes of gun violence,” says the report.

It appears to be referencing comments made earlier this month to reporters by Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar, who said he did not interpret the language as banning CDC from studying gun violence.
...
The House and Senate must pass the omnibus bill and then have it signed by President Donald Trump by midnight Friday to avoid the third government shutdown in three months. The final bill released Wednesday night was written in part by leaders from both parties in the House and Senate.
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Re: Gun Politics

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Proposed Oregon initiative would ban assault weapons unless registered with the police.
SALEM, Ore. — A recently filed Oregon initiative would make manufacturing, importing, possessing, purchasing or selling an assault weapon or large capacity magazine a crime -- with only a few exceptions.

If passed, Oregon Initiative 42 would only allow owners to keep their assault weapons and large capacity magazines if they register them with Oregon State Police.

If the initiative goes into effect, anyone who owns an assault weapon or large capacity magazine will be required to remove them from the state, sell the items, surrender the items to a law enforcement agency for destruction, render the assault weapon permanently inoperable or, if eligible, register the assault weapon or large capacity magazine with Oregon State Police within 120 days.

In order to register an assault weapon under the act, the owner would need to submit a form to the Oregon State Police with the owner’s name and address and identification number of the assault weapon. The owner must also allow police to conduct a criminal background check to confirm the person is not a prohibited possessor.

Anyone hoping to register an assault weapon or large capacity magazine must prove to police that the items are securely stored and that they are only kept on property owned by the registered owner or on someone else’s property with express permission.

The initiative includes exceptions for government officers, members of the armed forces or peace officers. It would also allow firearm manufacturers to the build assault weapons to sell to the armed forces or law enforcement agencies in Oregon.
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Re: Gun Politics

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Exodor wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:47 am Proposed Oregon initiative would ban assault weapons unless registered with the police.
SALEM, Ore. — A recently filed Oregon initiative would make manufacturing, importing, possessing, purchasing or selling an assault weapon or large capacity magazine a crime -- with only a few exceptions.

If passed, Oregon Initiative 42 would only allow owners to keep their assault weapons and large capacity magazines if they register them with Oregon State Police.

If the initiative goes into effect, anyone who owns an assault weapon or large capacity magazine will be required to remove them from the state, sell the items, surrender the items to a law enforcement agency for destruction, render the assault weapon permanently inoperable or, if eligible, register the assault weapon or large capacity magazine with Oregon State Police within 120 days.

In order to register an assault weapon under the act, the owner would need to submit a form to the Oregon State Police with the owner’s name and address and identification number of the assault weapon. The owner must also allow police to conduct a criminal background check to confirm the person is not a prohibited possessor.

Anyone hoping to register an assault weapon or large capacity magazine must prove to police that the items are securely stored and that they are only kept on property owned by the registered owner or on someone else’s property with express permission.

The initiative includes exceptions for government officers, members of the armed forces or peace officers. It would also allow firearm manufacturers to the build assault weapons to sell to the armed forces or law enforcement agencies in Oregon.
That is about the widest definition of "Assault Weapons" I have ever seen. Should make for some interesting court cases.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Rip »

Rip wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:49 am
Exodor wrote: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:47 am Proposed Oregon initiative would ban assault weapons unless registered with the police.
SALEM, Ore. — A recently filed Oregon initiative would make manufacturing, importing, possessing, purchasing or selling an assault weapon or large capacity magazine a crime -- with only a few exceptions.

If passed, Oregon Initiative 42 would only allow owners to keep their assault weapons and large capacity magazines if they register them with Oregon State Police.

If the initiative goes into effect, anyone who owns an assault weapon or large capacity magazine will be required to remove them from the state, sell the items, surrender the items to a law enforcement agency for destruction, render the assault weapon permanently inoperable or, if eligible, register the assault weapon or large capacity magazine with Oregon State Police within 120 days.

In order to register an assault weapon under the act, the owner would need to submit a form to the Oregon State Police with the owner’s name and address and identification number of the assault weapon. The owner must also allow police to conduct a criminal background check to confirm the person is not a prohibited possessor.

Anyone hoping to register an assault weapon or large capacity magazine must prove to police that the items are securely stored and that they are only kept on property owned by the registered owner or on someone else’s property with express permission.

The initiative includes exceptions for government officers, members of the armed forces or peace officers. It would also allow firearm manufacturers to the build assault weapons to sell to the armed forces or law enforcement agencies in Oregon.
That is about the widest definition of "Assault Weapons" I have ever seen. Should make for some interesting court cases.
A semiautomatic pistol, or any semiautomatic, centerfire or rimfire rifle with a fixed magazine, that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds of ammunition.
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Re: Gun Politics

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Black Lives Matter.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Isgrimnur »

Delaware
A proposed ban on assault weapons was introduced in the Delaware General Assembly on Thursday, the latest and likely most contested bill among a slew of gun control measures being debated by state lawmakers this year.

The legislation sponsored by Sen. Bryan Townsend, D-Newark, seeks to block the sale, transfer or import of about 60 specific makes and models of semi-automatic rifles and handguns, along with so-called "copycat weapons" defined by features such as folding stocks, flash suppressors and grenade launchers.

Violation of the proposed law would be a felony punishable by up to three years in prison for a first offense and a five-year prison term for a second offense.

The list of banned weapons would include rifles commonly referred to as AK-47s and AR-15s, along with a variety of semi-automatic shotguns and "assault pistols," such as UZIs and the rapid-fire Beretta 93R.

Anyone who currently owns one of those weapons would be allowed to keep their guns, although using and transporting those grandfathered firearms would be strictly limited. There would be no requirement to register those guns with the state, however.

"These types of weapons are frequently used in mass shootings and the killing of police," Townsend said. "These are not firearms used in home defense like handguns or for hunting like other types of rifles. They are derived from the battlefield and their purpose is to kill in large numbers."
...
"There is no room for compromise or amendments on this," said Jeff Hague, president of NRA affiliate the Delaware State Sportsmen's Association. "This is bad legislation and we will not support it in any manner."
...
Hague contends the bill is "cosmetic" and being proposed purely for the appearance of action.

Citing data from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, he claims that four of the nearly 500 homicides in Delaware from 2007 through 2016 were committed with long guns compared to 24 slayings that involved "fists and feet."
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni »

On the one hand, there cosmetic bans are largely for show and are easily circumvented. On the other, they are largely for show and easily circumvented.
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Re: Gun Politics

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The Globe ran an interesting package today averring that 27,000 American lives would be saved annually if all 50 states adopted MA's gun laws (because we have the fewest gun deaths per capita in the US). Seven steps, 27,000 lives.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy »

It's been kinda fascinating to watch Fox News completely ignore the protests and rallys today. A couple small sidebar stories on their website is literally the only mention of them at all.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by tjg_marantz »

Skinypupy wrote:It's been kinda fascinating to watch Fox News completely ignore the protests and rallys today. A couple small sidebar stories on their website is literally the only mention of them at all.
Fascinating and expected.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Holman »

The Guardian's US edition has published a manifesto/proposal by Parkland high school students.

tl;dr:
--Ban semi-automatic weapons that fire high-velocity rounds
--Ban accessories that simulate automatic weapons
--Establish a database of gun sales and universal background checks
--Change privacy laws to allow mental healthcare providers to communicate with law enforcement
--Close gun show and secondhand sales loopholes
--Allow the CDC to make recommendations for gun reform
--Raise the firearm purchase age to 21
--Dedicate more funds to mental health research and professionals
--Increase funding for school security

NRA meltdown in 3, 2, 1...
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Kraken »

Impressive crowds all over the US, and the world. As much as I would love to believe that the NRA's going on the defensive as politicians follow overwhelming public sentiment, I predict that token reforms (like banning bump stocks) will pass with a great flourish, and a new generation of Americans will become disillusioned with politics as they discover that power derives from money, not people.

Or maybe it's different this time. I hope so.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Max Peck »

The NRA is keeping it classy, as always.

NRA host taunts Parkland teens: ‘No one would know your names’ if classmates were still alive
As they’ve stepped out of the hallways of Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School and into the national spotlight, the Parkland, Fla., teenagers have become Twitter influencers, TV news show mainstays and the stoic-faced subjects of a Time magazine cover.

But they’ve also increasingly become targets: Their most prominent critics are people who see them less as survivors of a tragedy and more as pawns in a larger effort to influence gun policy.

The latest attack came from Colion Noir, a host on NRATV who took to the airwaves on the eve of the Parkland teens-led March on Washington, telling them: “No one would know your names” if a student gunman hadn’t stormed into their school and killed three staff members and 14 students.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Chaz »

It's been super sad to see the #2A people consistently say that these kids are just being manipulated by the leftie agenda, because they couldn't possibly feel this way themselves. It denies these kids any agency, and sets them up for a life of "don't bother, you can't change anything." I mean, there's no way that a generation of kids who have spent their entire lives watching shootings happen at schools across the country, and doing active shooter drills since kindergarten. You can't imagine a reality where they think that's a really shitty state of affairs, and we've finally hit the breaking point where they're willing to speak out?

Yes, I'm certain that parents are helping, because parents have a vested interest in this too. I'm totally fine with that, because I'm right there with them.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by AWS260 »

Kraken wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:19 pmOr maybe it's different this time. I hope so.
Same here.

I remember the Million Mom March after Columbine. It felt like a sea change was coming. But it never came.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Kraken »

AWS260 wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:34 pm
Kraken wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:19 pmOr maybe it's different this time. I hope so.
Same here.

I remember the Million Mom March after Columbine. It felt like a sea change was coming. But it never came.
Unless teenagers have changed a lot, they expect quick and dramatic action when righteousness is on their side. That's why I think this movement will sputter out, too, despite periodic renewals by fresh massacres.

But politics in general are in upheaval like I've never seen, so who knows?
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Blackhawk »

Had this movement sprung up during a different administration, or a different congress, it could very well have made a difference.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by malchior »

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:23 am Had this movement sprung up during a different administration, or a different congress, it could very well have made a difference.
Sure if that Congress had a 60 Democrat Senate and a Democratic majority in the House - maybe...and a very doubtful maybe at that.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Blackhawk »

The comment was more to state that the entire movement has zero chance of success as things are right now. What they're more likely to actually achieve is more change in public sentiment, which is better than nothing.

And the biggest hurdle to real, lasting gun control will remain the Supreme Court, at least until the nation is willing to tweak the Constitution.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni »

I had to travel to Ann Arbor for a funeral yesterday. The deceased was a Navy veteran so they did the honor guard and 21 gun salute at the internment. Right in the middle of a protest. There weren't any issues if course (it's Ann Arbor)like but it was a strange juxtaposition.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Daehawk »

I dont know what they are protesting for exactly. What laws or changes do they expect that aren't already there? The only working change I can see if if a guy was standing at the entrance in the mornings and smacked each in the head with a hammer and did a thorough search of each student then tossed them inside .Once done and full the school would be locked. But you cant smack them with hammers...you cant search everyone and you cant lock the doors.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Blackhawk »

Daehawk wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:50 am I dont know what they are protesting for exactly. What laws or changes do they expect that aren't already there?
Holman wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:38 pm The Guardian's US edition has published a manifesto/proposal by Parkland high school students.

tl;dr:
--Ban semi-automatic weapons that fire high-velocity rounds
--Ban accessories that simulate automatic weapons
--Establish a database of gun sales and universal background checks
--Change privacy laws to allow mental healthcare providers to communicate with law enforcement
--Close gun show and secondhand sales loopholes
--Allow the CDC to make recommendations for gun reform
--Raise the firearm purchase age to 21
--Dedicate more funds to mental health research and professionals
--Increase funding for school security

NRA meltdown in 3, 2, 1...
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni »

They all seem reasonable to me. I really only have a problem with the first one, and that's on principle, since it doesn't affect me directly at the moment.

The only thing I'd add is more rigorous enforcement of existing laws and mandatory disclosure of all for firearms offense sentencing.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Holman »

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:39 am The comment was more to state that the entire movement has zero chance of success as things are right now. What they're more likely to actually achieve is more change in public sentiment, which is better than nothing.

And the biggest hurdle to real, lasting gun control will remain the Supreme Court, at least until the nation is willing to tweak the Constitution.
To the degree that a generation of high-schoolers and college students are poised to get off their butts and vote at 18+ rather than waiting until 30, it could be very consequential at the legislative level.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Fitzy »

--Change privacy laws to allow mental healthcare providers to communicate with law enforcement
I don't know the extent to which they are suggesting changing the laws, but this could be damn scary. You start reporting people for anything beyond a harm to self or others and it will get out. Lives could easily be destroyed.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Defiant »

Holman wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:11 am
To the degree that a generation of high-schoolers and college students are poised to get off their butts and vote at 18+ rather than waiting until 30, it could be very consequential at the legislative level.
I remain skeptical that they will (see a recent post of mine about the turnout in last weeks primaries where the voter turnout was 3% for those under 30 and 40+% for the Baby Boomers - there's no evidence yet of such a shift) But I hope my skepticism is proven wrong.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Zarathud »

There has been enough time and shootings that so many see the consequences of inaction. The civil rights movement didn't solve discrimination, but they eventually obtained major successes after many setbacks. Changing attitudes towards guns will be a long, hard fight.

There are now motivated teenagers willing to dedicate their lives to fighting the NRA and being leaders on gun control. That's the difference that makes me hopeful. But it would be foolishly hopeful to think one march will succeed but pessimistic or even cynical to think it can't have any effect.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Defiant »

Fitzy wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:49 am
--Change privacy laws to allow mental healthcare providers to communicate with law enforcement
I don't know the extent to which they are suggesting changing the laws, but this could be damn scary. You start reporting people for anything beyond a harm to self or others and it will get out. Lives could easily be destroyed.
Agreed.
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Daehawk
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Daehawk »

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:00 am
Daehawk wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:50 am I dont know what they are protesting for exactly. What laws or changes do they expect that aren't already there?
Holman wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:38 pm The Guardian's US edition has published a manifesto/proposal by Parkland high school students.

SNIP

NRA meltdown in 3, 2, 1...
I thought all that was already laws.Surprised they are not. But I do not agree with the 21 age limit. Thats not a good one. 18 is fine. But I do think some kind of mandatory gun training or at least demonstration on purchase is needed. If a gun is in the house then a parent should teach the kid about them . From age 1-8 I would say dont even touch them. But 8 on needs training. I owned my own guns at 8 but only with my dad teaching me all about them.
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Blackhawk
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Blackhawk »

You thought those were already laws?

Those should-be laws are pretty much what the entirety of three of these threads have been about.
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Skinypupy
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy »

When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
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Holman
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Holman »

Losing your incumbent senate seat by more than 17 points means STFU, Rick.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by malchior »

The "conservative" reaction to these kids is fascinating in the sense that you know they are repugnant, hollow excuses for human beings and they feel that it is ok to say things like this openly. And this is relatively mild on the shittiness scale.
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