Gun Politics

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em2nought
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by em2nought »

I hate to tell those advocates of "clear" backpacks, but here's the number two use for a school text book.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Zaxxon »

El Guapo wrote:Isn't mocking Hogg over college rejections, while super petty, probably the #497th most outrageous thing that Ingraham has said? Kind of funny that this is what her advertisers jump ship over.
That was my thought. 5% credit to them for jumping ship. 95% demerit for being on the ship in the first place.
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El Guapo
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by El Guapo »

Zaxxon wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:55 pm
El Guapo wrote:Isn't mocking Hogg over college rejections, while super petty, probably the #497th most outrageous thing that Ingraham has said? Kind of funny that this is what her advertisers jump ship over.
That was my thought. 5% credit to them for jumping ship. 95% demerit for being on the ship in the first place.
It's funny, when I saw the headlines like "Ingraham gets blowback over mocking Parkland student", I was picturing something a million times worse.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Isgrimnur »

When Captain America calls you out, you know you done fucked up:


Spoiler:
What is the purpose of this tweet? What is wrong with you? Are you actually proud of this? Regardless of your political beliefs and motivations, THIS is how you choose to present yourself? You must be so sad, angry and scared.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by hepcat »

Ted Nugent takes a break from attempting to have sex with children long enough to to make fun of them.

p.s. I wish I was making that first part up, but the man does love underage girls.

Update: Frank Stallone jumped on the bandwagon and called the Parkland students a bunch of pussies. Then he immediately began to apologize profusely when the internet reminded him he was Frank Stallone.

Covfefe!
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by em2nought »

Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by hepcat »

The mere thought of being able to fire your guns at someone really gets some folks off, doesn't it.
Covfefe!
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Rip
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Rip »

I'm getting a lot of entertainment from Parkland students upset with the things to make them safe as they protested for.




Well that sucks. A lot like knee jerk gun restrictions.

False senses of security for everyone.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Carpet_pissr »

They're fucking kids. If the so-called grown-ups in this country had done their jobs and offered even a modicum of concern about school shootings, via legislation, we probably wouldn't be reading and listening seriously to teenagers' desperate, flawed ideas about how to make them more safe from gun wielding assholes while they are trying to learn geometry.

"Do nothing", or actually "LOOSEN gun restrictions" after multiple school shootings is suckier than silly ideas, or knee jerk reactions IMO. At least they are fucking trying.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Punisher »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:33 pm They're fucking kids. If the so-called grown-ups in this country had done their jobs and offered even a modicum of concern about school shootings, via legislation, we probably wouldn't be reading and listening seriously to teenagers' desperate, flawed ideas about how to make them more safe from gun wielding assholes while they are trying to learn geometry.

"Do nothing", or actually "LOOSEN gun restrictions" after multiple school shootings is suckier than silly ideas, or knee jerk reactions IMO. At least they are fucking trying.
I think RIP's point was that as people have suggested. "something" is better than nothing.. So what happens? They increase police presence, they start the talks on clear backpacks and checkpoints and then the same people who wanted s"something" done, complain about "something" being done...
The post above illustrates this even more. Like people opposed to knee-jerk gun restrictions because it doesn't really solve the issue, the clear backpacks and checkpoints don't really solve the issue because "people can hide guns in their pockets"
Additionally, by referring to hiding guns in their pockets, unless you are talking about MC Hammer, nobody is going to hide an assault weapon in their pocket, so an assault weapon wouldn't solve the issue either.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy »

I suppose we can continue to laugh at measures like clear backpacks and checkpoint and claim they do nothing, but do we really know that?

Maybe the kid who was leaning towards bringing a gun to school decided not to because it wouldn't be as easy to hide. Maybe having to pass through a checkpoint dissuaded another kid because he knew he'd get in trouble. While I'd agree that these solutions are mostly security theater, there's no way to prove that they have absolutely no positive effect.

Even if that effect is minor and saves one kid's life, it's tough to say that they're not worth the effort.
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Rip
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Rip »

Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:38 pm I suppose we can continue to laugh at measures like clear backpacks and checkpoint and claim they do nothing, but do we really know that?

Maybe the kid who was leaning towards bringing a gun to school decided not to because it wouldn't be as easy to hide. Maybe having to pass through a checkpoint dissuaded another kid because he knew he'd get in trouble. While I'd agree that these solutions are mostly security theater, there's no way to prove that they have absolutely no positive effect.

Even if that effect is minor and saves one kid's life, it's tough to say that they're not worth the effort.

You should give a speech to that effect to all the Parkland students having a hissy fit about security measures. They aren't looking for half measures that don't "solve" the issue. They want the magic unicorns they were promised by the left.

Also for the record I am not laughing at the students. I am laughing at all the instigators that promised them magical solutions without warning of the sacrifices. My kids have had to use see-through backpacks for years.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by noxiousdog »

Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:38 pm Even if that effect is minor and saves one kid's life, it's tough to say that they're not worth the effort.
Really?
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:05 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:38 pm Even if that effect is minor and saves one kid's life, it's tough to say that they're not worth the effort.
Really?
You don’t think the trade off of clear backpacks to save a kid’s life is worth it?
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by El Guapo »

hepcat wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:24 pm Ted Nugent takes a break from attempting to have sex with children long enough to to make fun of them.

p.s. I wish I was making that first part up, but the man does love underage girls.

Update: Frank Stallone jumped on the bandwagon and called the Parkland students a bunch of pussies. Then he immediately began to apologize profusely when the internet reminded him he was Frank Stallone.

The asshole who called out the Parkland students? You guessed it, Frank Stallone.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by noxiousdog »

Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:48 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:05 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:38 pm Even if that effect is minor and saves one kid's life, it's tough to say that they're not worth the effort.
Really?
You don’t think the trade off of clear backpacks to save a kid’s life is worth it?
It depends. What does the transition, enforcement, and draw backs to clear backpacks cost? Is that money that could be better spent elsewhere? What is the psychological effect of checkpoints?

Personally I would guess the cost is more than a theoretical life saved (color me skeptical), but since we haven't really stopped to think about any of that since 9/11, I don't know why we would start now.
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El Guapo
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by El Guapo »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:20 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:48 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:05 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:38 pm Even if that effect is minor and saves one kid's life, it's tough to say that they're not worth the effort.
Really?
You don’t think the trade off of clear backpacks to save a kid’s life is worth it?
It depends. What does the transition, enforcement, and draw backs to clear backpacks cost? Is that money that could be better spent elsewhere? What is the psychological effect of checkpoints?

Personally I would guess the cost is more than a theoretical life saved (color me skeptical), but since we haven't really stopped to think about any of that since 9/11, I don't know why we would start now.
My main concern with clear backpacks is that it seems like a potentially massive privacy issue. It's not hard to imagine school administrators in some schools making them mandatory on public safety grounds. That's going to dramatically impact what students are willing to tote around in their backpacks, including a broad swath of things that are 100% legal and not at all dangerous. It's also not at all hard to imagine clear bag requirements spreading to a variety of other public locations, with similar results.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Zaxxon »

This certainly seems like security theater. Is anyone seriously arguing that a person who wants to shoot up a school will be deterred because his backpack is clear? That's the thing that is a bridge too far?

You can work around that hurdle in under five seconds of thinking about it.

It's theater, and it has major drawbacks (mainly privacy) of its own. The fact that the Parkland kids (the ones who just went through a shooting and are looking for solutions to prevent future shootings) are ranting about it on Twitter should be a signal of how terrible an idea it is.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Smoove_B »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:25 pmMy main concern with clear backpacks is that it seems like a potentially massive privacy issue.
If there's one thing schools are known for, it's making sure that your rights as a citizen are protected. Additionally, there's nothing American's value more than privacy. If you'll excuse me, I need to update my Facebook profile and share with everyone exactly what I did today.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Archinerd »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:31 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:25 pmMy main concern with clear backpacks is that it seems like a potentially massive privacy issue.
If there's one thing schools are known for, it's making sure that your rights as a citizen are protected. Additionally, there's nothing American's value more than privacy. If you'll excuse me, I need to update my Facebook profile and share with everyone exactly what I did today.
Every school I've ever been to could search your locker without notice for any reason.

My issue with this "solution" is that it is not addressing the real problem and is a misuse of resources. Not unlike Trump's border wall.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by noxiousdog »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:31 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:25 pmMy main concern with clear backpacks is that it seems like a potentially massive privacy issue.
If there's one thing schools are known for, it's making sure that your rights as a citizen are protected. Additionally, there's nothing American's value more than privacy. If you'll excuse me, I need to update my Facebook profile and share with everyone exactly what I did today.
Teens are very concerned about Facebook privacy issues.
Most of the survey takers were highly concerned about their privacy online, with the ability for anyone to see what's on their account being a major concern. They actively sought out "customizable" apps that would allow them to control who saw what they were posting. Some had multiple accounts, including a public facing profile and another for closer friends.
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"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy »

Zaxxon wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:31 pm This certainly seems like security theater. Is anyone seriously arguing that a person who wants to shoot up a school will be deterred because his backpack is clear? That's the thing that is a bridge too far?
I'm not arguing that someone who is truly determined will find a way. They always do. I do think that someone who is on the edge and not 100% committed to the act might be ultimately end up deterred by some of these more minor security measures. There's no way to prove that negative though, so all of these ideas simply get rejected.

I guess I'm just frustrated that the idea of any intermediate steps that don't immediately and completely solve the entire problem are just dismissed as stupid and worthless. I'd agree that clear backpacks probably fall more in that category, but since there aren't any other alternate suggestions that anyone is willing to take seriously, that's what we're left with.

Maybe if there could actually be a (gasp) reasonable dialog and discussion about the issue, something intelligent might actually happen. No one seems willing to do that though.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Zaxxon »

Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:47 pmI'm not arguing that someone who is truly determined will find a way. They always do. I do think that someone who is on the edge and not 100% committed to the act might be ultimately end up deterred by some of these more minor security measures.
Where are these not-100%-committed people shooting up schools? If you enter a school with a gun and shoot it up, you were pretty goddamned committed.
I guess I'm just frustrated that the idea of any intermediate steps that don't immediately and completely solve the entire problem are just dismissed as stupid and worthless.
That's certainly not what's happening here. Clear backpacks are not an intermediate step. They're security theater, with no more worth than asking everyone nicely to please not shoot up schools.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy »

Zaxxon wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:09 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:47 pmI'm not arguing that someone who is truly determined will find a way. They always do. I do think that someone who is on the edge and not 100% committed to the act might be ultimately end up deterred by some of these more minor security measures.
Where are these not-100%-committed people shooting up schools? If you enter a school with a gun and shoot it up, you were pretty goddamned committed.
If a kid actually brings the gun to a school, then yes, he's 100% committed.

I'm thinking more about the kid who is waffling on whether or not to actually go through with it. Maybe a few extra security measures ultimately tip him towards leaving the gun at home.
That's certainly not what's happening here. Clear backpacks are not an intermediate step. They're security theater, with no more worth than asking everyone nicely to please not shoot up schools.
OK, fine. Clear backpacks fall in the "stupid idea" category.

Since it feels like we (the collective "we", not OO) have decided to reject any idea, we're right back at square one: either stupid ideas or doing nothing. Awesome.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Zaxxon »

Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:23 pm I'm thinking more about the kid who is waffling on whether or not to actually go through with it. Maybe a few extra security measures ultimately tip him towards leaving the gun at home.
I can see that, but I disagree that this is one of those measures. Like, it literally has no chance of helping, IMO. Maybe I'm wrong.
Since it feels like we (the collective "we", not OO) have decided to reject any idea, we're right back at square one: either stupid ideas or doing nothing. Awesome.
I don't think we've done that. Certainly the NRA has, and the GOP in general. But there's more general support in this area than I've seen before. The March for Our Lives was not a one-day thing. It's going to take time. I think they still have momentum. Let's see how that progresses from here to November, and what the Congress looks like after that. That's when we'll know whether there's a chance for any serious reform.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Smoove_B »

Doing nothing is what we ultimately end up doing because as soon as someone suggests something that would make a difference (like maybe reducing the number of guns or severely restricting access to them) the hardcore gun nuts come out in droves and shout everyone down. Not here specifically but in general. As long as one-issue voters have power in elections, this will never end.

So we're back to doing nothing until the next time [X] number of children, adults or elderly people are gunned down. Then we will collectively lament that something should be done.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:28 pm Doing nothing is what we ultimately end up doing because as soon as someone suggests something that would make a difference (like maybe reducing the number of guns or severely restricting access to them) the hardcore gun nuts come out in droves and shout everyone down. Not here specifically but in general. As long as one-issue voters have power in elections, this will never end.

So we're back to doing nothing until the next time [X] number of children, adults or elderly people are gunned down. Then we will collectively lament that something should be done.
Yeah, this endless cycle of nothingness has me overly frustrated today. Yet another shooting is literally happening as we discuss it.

I'm just fucking sick of it.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Zaxxon »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:28 pmAs long as one-issue voters have power in elections, this will never end.
Well, we added a whole lot of one-issue voters after Parkland.
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:32 pmYeah, this endless cycle of nothingness has me overly frustrated today. Yet another shooting is literally happening as we discuss it.

I'm just fucking sick of it.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Carpet_pissr »

noxiousdog wrote:What is the psychological effect of checkpoints?
What is the psychological effect of the now quite frequent lockdown drills?
What is the psychological effect of going to school worried that someone will shoot it up? Not knife it up, beat it senseless, or drive a car into it. Shoot it up.
What is the psychological effect of kids wondering why their parents and the rest of the so called adults in the country, of voting age, have done fuck all after so many school shootings?
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Remus West »

Archinerd wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:37 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:31 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:25 pmMy main concern with clear backpacks is that it seems like a potentially massive privacy issue.
If there's one thing schools are known for, it's making sure that your rights as a citizen are protected. Additionally, there's nothing American's value more than privacy. If you'll excuse me, I need to update my Facebook profile and share with everyone exactly what I did today.
Every school I've ever been to could search your locker without notice for any reason.

My issue with this "solution" is that it is not addressing the real problem and is a misuse of resources. Not unlike Trump's border wall.
Schools can search your locker because it belongs to them and thus by leaving something in it you have tacitly given them permission. A bag you carry around with you is a different story. Any time we need to check a bag we call the SRO to collect and search it properly. A lot of times he can not search without their permission. The times he can worry me far more than when he can not.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Chaz »

I suspect the frustration around the backpacks and checkpoints is a combination of having zero faith that they'll make a difference, and that this is going to be the only change implemented. If it was "we'll do this now while we work on the bigger, harder changes", I don't think you get the same reaction, but we've watched the reaction to calls for any kind of gun control being ignored, so you can imagine why they think this will be the beginning and end of any changes.

Also funny how the right responds to proposals for gun control changes with pointing out why that won't fix the problem completely, so why bother, but are now saying that while clear backpacks won't save all the lives, they might save some, so shouldn't we do it?
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Rip »

Chaz wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:07 pm I suspect the frustration around the backpacks and checkpoints is a combination of having zero faith that they'll make a difference, and that this is going to be the only change implemented. If it was "we'll do this now while we work on the bigger, harder changes", I don't think you get the same reaction, but we've watched the reaction to calls for any kind of gun control being ignored, so you can imagine why they think this will be the beginning and end of any changes.

Also funny how the right responds to proposals for gun control changes with pointing out why that won't fix the problem completely, so why bother, but are now saying that while clear backpacks won't save all the lives, they might save some, so shouldn't we do it?
Hold the phone. You are suggesting that this clear backpacks thing is the result of a push from the right?

http://browardschools.com/superintendent/bio



https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/21/us/f ... packs.html
Robert W. Runcie, the superintendent of Broward County Public Schools, sent a letter to the families of Stoneman Douglas High students imposing the new backpack rule, reminiscent of security measures at airports and professional sports venues. He said any student without a clear backpack would be provided one at no cost after spring break, which takes place next week.

Students also will be issued identification badges, which they will be required to wear at all times while in school. Staff members have badges as well.

In addition, Mr. Runcie said the district was considering using metal-detecting wands at school entrances and installing permanent metal detectors — a safety measure Mr. Runcie recently criticized as ineffective. A person intent on committing an atrocity would find his or her way around them, he said in an interview last month.
Yea that Runcie sounds like a total right-wing bible-thumping gun-totin whackjob.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni »

The NFL has had a "clear bag" policy for years. Total theater. Last few times I went to a game I just stuck my non-compliant bag in a clear bag and they waved me through. The only winner is the manufacturer of clear bags. I think the official NFL ones are like $25. For what is essentially the the kind of bag that linens come in.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by noxiousdog »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:43 pm
noxiousdog wrote:What is the psychological effect of checkpoints?
What is the psychological effect of the now quite frequent lockdown drills?
What is the psychological effect of going to school worried that someone will shoot it up? Not knife it up, beat it senseless, or drive a car into it. Shoot it up.
What is the psychological effect of kids wondering why their parents and the rest of the so called adults in the country, of voting age, have done fuck all after so many school shootings?
You tell me. You're the one that is so excited about the new changes.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo »

Bad.

Unless you're suggesting having your privacy invaded is worse than being killed, I'm not sure what you want from this?
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:37 am The NFL has had a "clear bag" policy for years. Total theater. Last few times I went to a game I just stuck my non-compliant bag in a clear bag and they waved me through. The only winner is the manufacturer of clear bags. I think the official NFL ones are like $25. For what is essentially the the kind of bag that linens come in.
But that's not the clear bag's fault, or a natural outcome of a clear bag policy.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by noxiousdog »

GreenGoo wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:22 am Bad.

Unless you're suggesting having your privacy invaded is worse than being killed, I'm not sure what you want from this?
It's not just your privacy. It's a whole way of life. On one side you have folks so terrified of guns they are willing to send their kids to school with clear backpacks. Seriously. Clear backpacks. That's the solution. On the other side, you have a group that wants to ban Muslims because they are scared of terrorists.

It's the same culture with a different demon. How do you think we got to this point? It's because we embrace the culture of fear.

So you tell me. Are enough lives going to be saved by clear backpacks that it's worth perpetuating the culture of fear?
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
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em2nought
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by em2nought »

If I had a brat, I'd probably put one of these https://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor- ... armor.html in his wee clear backpack.

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Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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GreenGoo
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo »

noxiousdog wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:32 am
GreenGoo wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:22 am Bad.

Unless you're suggesting having your privacy invaded is worse than being killed, I'm not sure what you want from this?
It's not just your privacy. It's a whole way of life. On one side you have folks so terrified of guns they are willing to send their kids to school with clear backpacks. Seriously. Clear backpacks. That's the solution. On the other side, you have a group that wants to ban Muslims because they are scared of terrorists.
Omg no, a clear backpack? How outrageous.

As pointed out, courts have already ruled that kids get less rights at school, including privacy. It's not like people are advocating strip searches.

Actually I don't give a crap. Keep planting your kids and abusing the ones that live.

Totally worth it for freedom.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zaxxon
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Zaxxon »

It really is, in context. These kids just went through a school shooting, and the PTB are seriously suggesting clear backpacks will help. Can you not see how depressing/humiliating/embarrassing that is?

It's terrible, and we should all be furious.
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