Gun Politics

[Holman]

There are dozens of countries where players (especially young males with bad judgment) love violent videogames.

Nearly all of them have reasonably strict gun laws, and mass shootings are rare-to-unheard-of where they do.

[noxiousdog]

There are dozens of countries where players (especially young males with bad judgment) love violent videogames.

Nearly all of them have reasonably strict gun laws, and mass shootings are rare-to-unheard-of where they do.

They have had reasonably strict weapons laws for decades as opposed to 1/3 of the population owning them.

Mass shootings are rare here too. We just have 300 million people and way more criminal activity.

[Pyperkub]

gun manufacturers

Are restrictions on gun manufacturers considered to infringe on individual rights historically?

I don't think so, but I really have no idea.

[Holman]

There are dozens of countries where players (especially young males with bad judgment) love violent videogames.

Nearly all of them have reasonably strict gun laws, and mass shootings are rare-to-unheard-of where they do.

They have had reasonably strict weapons laws for decades as opposed to 1/3 of the population owning them.

Mass shootings are rare here too. We just have 300 million people and way more criminal activity.

I shouldn't have said "mass shootings," which are indeed rare.

Run-of-the-mill shootings, however, still occur here -way- out of proportion to population compared to other countries.

[noxiousdog]

There are dozens of countries where players (especially young males with bad judgment) love violent videogames.

Nearly all of them have reasonably strict gun laws, and mass shootings are rare-to-unheard-of where they do.

They have had reasonably strict weapons laws for decades as opposed to 1/3 of the population owning them.

Mass shootings are rare here too. We just have 300 million people and way more criminal activity.

I shouldn't have said "mass shootings," which are indeed rare.

Run-of-the-mill shootings, however, still occur here -way- out of proportion to population compared to other countries.

Indeed. It's non firearm homicide rate is way out of proportion too.

[Victoria Raverna]

So what do you think about the other things that glorify the gun culture like tv, movies, and video games?

Is it a chicken and egg thing? I honestly have no idea. Do we glorify gun culture because of our Constitutionally guaranteed rights to "bear arms" or are some people motivated to exercise their rights because of how sexy it is to kill bad guys in video games or see them getting shot on the TV and in the movies? No snark, I really don't know. At the risk of sounding ridiculous, Game of Thrones is arguably one of the most popular TV shows ever created - at least in terms of viewership. I'm also pretty confident people aren't buying dozens of swords because of it, or at least if they aren't they're not wading into a crowd of hundreds of people and hacking away at them.

Also tv, movies and video games that glorified guns are available worldwide including in countries that ban guns. You don't see a lot of people buying guns illegally on those countries because of the tv, movies, and video games.

[noxiousdog]

Also tv, movies and video games that glorified guns are available worldwide including in countries that ban guns. You don't see a lot of people buying guns illegally on those countries because of the tv, movies, and video games.

?

Then how is they have homicide by firearms?

[Max Peck]

Also tv, movies and video games that glorified guns are available worldwide including in countries that ban guns. You don't see a lot of people buying guns illegally on those countries because of the tv, movies, and video games.

?

Then how is they have homicide by firearms?

We have firearms in Canada. If we're willing to jump through the administrative hoops, we can have AR-15 carbines, sidearms, hunting rifles, shotguns, whatever.

We consume exactly the same television, film and video game media as the United States, and yet:

[noxiousdog]

Also tv, movies and video games that glorified guns are available worldwide including in countries that ban guns. You don't see a lot of people buying guns illegally on those countries because of the tv, movies, and video games.

?

Then how is they have homicide by firearms?

and yet[/url]:

Right. I was simply referring to Victoria's nonsense.

But we have more rape and burglary and assault and all the other non-firearm offenses. So, I have no doubt that gun control will affect suicide rates and domestic altercations. I'm not convinced that it will have much effect beyond that and it's bothersome when these stats are trotted out when they aren't comparable.

From the Guardian in a pro-gun control article:

Mark Mastaglio, an expert on firearms who worked for the Forensic Science Service for 20 years, said there was no evidence that the ban on handguns after Dunblane had done anything to cut the criminal use of firearms. “It was very rare that there was ever leakage from the licensed gun owners to the criminal fraternity. Most guns used by criminal are either illegally imported or converted weapons. And that remains the case today,” said Mastaglio.

Crime statistics in the years after the ban was introduced appear to support the theory that it had little impact. Gun crime rose sharply, to peak at 24,094 offences in 2003/4. After that the number of crimes in which a firearm was involved fell consistently, to 4,779 offences in 2013. In the year ending September 2015 there was a small rise of 4% to 4,994 offences.

[Paingod]

If it's not the media or the access to guns, then it's something fundamentally broken in our mentality and overall culture that no one wants to admit to, or that no one has pieced together yet.

[noxiousdog]

/tangent

Here's a weird one.

Sweden has a serious rape problem.

The US, Austrailia, and New Zealand are 50% worse than any other OECD country (exception Iceland, but still much higher than Iceland).

[Paingod]

What's happened there in the last 13 years that would almost triple that statistic for them? Jeebus. In 2004, they had like 251/100,000. Now they've got 635/100,000.

I've read before that Swedish folks have a pretty liberal view of sex, but you'd think that would mean more respect and understanding - not a metric ton of rape.

[Max Peck]

Right. I was simply referring to Victoria's nonsense.

No, you've been repeatedly pushing the discredited idea that maybe violent media is the problem. It isn't, or else it would have a similar effect in other countries and cultures. It doesn't.

[Max Peck]

/tangent

Here's a weird one.

Sweden has a serious rape problem.

The US, Austrailia, and New Zealand are 50% worse than any other OECD country (exception Iceland, but still much higher than Iceland).

You might want to look at how different countries define a crime and handle reporting of the crime statistics before you dive too deeply into that rabbit hole.

On the face of it, it would seem Sweden is a much more dangerous place than these other countries.

But that is a misconception, according to Klara Selin, a sociologist at the National Council for Crime Prevention in Stockholm. She says you cannot compare countries' records, because police procedures and legal definitions vary widely.

"In Sweden there has been this ambition explicitly to record every case of sexual violence separately, to make it visible in the statistics," she says.

"So, for instance, when a woman comes to the police and she says my husband or my fiance raped me almost every day during the last year, the police have to record each of these events, which might be more than 300 events. In many other countries it would just be one record - one victim, one type of crime, one record."

[noxiousdog]

Right. I was simply referring to Victoria's nonsense.

No, you've been repeatedly pushing the discredited idea that maybe violent media is the problem. It isn't, or else it would have a similar effect in other countries and cultures. It doesn't.

You clearly have a reading comprehension problem.

Regardless, I'm talking about the whole culture of violence coupled with young males and bad judgement.

.....

And absolutely it's a feedback loop, but if we are trying to change the culture....

[Max Peck]

If it's not the media or the access to guns, then it's something fundamentally broken in our mentality and overall culture that no one wants to admit to, or that no one has pieced together yet.

One fundamentally unique American concept that underlies much of your public policy is the belief that individual liberty is ascendant over the welfare of the community. That ideal informs everything from free speech to healthcare to welfare to firearms ownership. Most of the western developed world leans more toward the idea that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

Counterpoint: It's a feature, not a bug. Working as intended.

[Max Peck]

Right. I was simply referring to Victoria's nonsense.

No, you've been repeatedly pushing the discredited idea that maybe violent media is the problem. It isn't, or else it would have a similar effect in other countries and cultures. It doesn't.

You clearly have a reading comprehension problem.

Regardless, I'm talking about the whole culture of violence coupled with young males and bad judgement.

.....

And absolutely it's a feedback loop, but if we are trying to change the culture....

OK. Carry on with your monologue.

[LawBeefaroni]

Be definition, only criminals obtain illegal firearms. Criminals can obtain legal ones too but why bother?

[noxiousdog]

You might want to look at how different countries define a crime and handle reporting of the crime statistics before you dive too deeply into that rabbit hole.[/url]

Wiki

In Sweden there is a comparatively broad definition of what constitutes rape. This means that more sexual crimes are registered as rape than in most other countries. For this reason, criminologists tend to recommend crime comparisons between countries based on large surveys of the general public, so-called victim surveys.

The Swedish Crime Survey (SCS) is a recurrent survey by Brå of the attitudes and experiences of the general population regarding victimization, fear of crime and public confidence in the justice system, with an annual sample size of around 15,000 respondents.

The rate of exposure to sexual offences has remained relatively unchanged, according to the SCS, since the first survey was conducted in 2006, despite an increase in the number of reported sex crimes. This discrepancy can largely be explained by reforms in sex crime legislation, widening of the definition of rape, and an effort by the Government to decrease the number of unreported cases.

In SCS 2013, 0.8 per cent of respondents state that they were the victims of sexual offences, including rape; or an estimated 62,000 people of the general population (aged 16–79). Of these, 16 per cent described the sexual offence as "rape"—which would mean approximately 36,000 incidents of rape in 2012. It should be noted that it may be difficult for a layperson to determine whether an incident should be assessed as rape or sexual coercion, which is a similar but lesser offence in the Swedish Penal Code, meaning this number may be exaggerated. On the other hand, relationship rape may also be under-represented, because of how sensitive the issue is. Most of the sexual offences are committed in a public place (50%), and the perpetrator(s) are most often unknown to the victim (63%).

That makes a rate of 404 per 100,000. Note: this was estimated on the population of Sweden over 14.

In the US, which is one of the worst in OECD is 210. Note: this is reported on age 12 and older as opposed to Sweden's 16 and over.

[Lagom Lite]

/tangent

Here's a weird one.

Sweden has a serious rape problem.

The US, Austrailia, and New Zealand are 50% worse than any other OECD country (exception Iceland, but still much higher than Iceland).

Max Peck beat me to it, but yeah - what constitutes as "rape" was broadened in a 2005 law change to include every separate act of sexual violence, which resulted in much higher statistics even though nothing really changed. That doesn't mean we don't have any problems, but the rape thing specifically is kinda bogus.

We've seen a recent increase in computer related crimes (frauds, hacking), and also deadly violence in certain urban areas have increased. The penalty for carrying an illegal weapon is very low (less than six months in jail), and there are quite a few guns and explosives in circulation now. Oh, and we also have real nazis. Lawmakers are looking at all this stuff, hopefully things will improve.

Still, I don't think the Scandinavian crime rate approaches anything near the US crime rate.

Maybe it has something to do with the prison system? You have millions of Americans living out their lives in prisons. Compare with Russia, who also have a high prison population. If the crime rate is comparable between Russia and the US, you might say there's a correlation between crime rate and having lots of people in prison (high penalties/punish rather than rehabilitate). I'd imagine there's a bit of a sub-culture going on in the System. How do you treat your convicts? Is there an alternative to going back to a life of crime when you get out of prison? What happens to the son of a convicted father? Etc.

One fundamentally unique American concept that underlies much of your public policy is the belief that individual liberty is ascendant over the welfare of the community. That ideal informs everything from free speech to healthcare to welfare to firearms ownership. Most of the western developed world leans more toward the idea that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

That is such bullshit. Just because euro countries spend their tax money on social welfare rather than cruise missiles doesn't mean euros don't prioritize human rights.

Apparently the liberty to own a gun is something you value very highly. What about the liberty to marry whichever gender you like? How's the attitude on drugs? Drafting into the Army, being shipped off to fight some war? The rights of the former convict, who loses his right to vote? Y'all let the ideas of individual liberty guide you in all these areas?

Face it, guns are just the drugs of your choice.

[noxiousdog]

Still, I don't think the Scandinavian crime rate approaches anything near the US crime rate.

Of course not. That's why it was such a weird outlier.

Maybe it has something to do with the prison system? You have millions of Americans living out their lives in prisons. Compare with Russia, who also have a high prison population. If the crime rate is comparable between Russia and the US, you might say there's a correlation between crime rate and having lots of people in prison (high penalties/punish rather than rehabilitate). I'd imagine there's a bit of a sub-culture going on in the System. How do you treat your convicts? Is there an alternative to going back to a life of crime when you get out of prison? What happens to the son of a convicted father? Etc.

For whatever reason there is a culture of crime and violence in America. All of the crime rates are significantly higher than nearly all OECD countries. This goes way beyond guns.

[Paingod]

For whatever reason there is a culture of crime and violence in America. All of the crime rates are significantly higher than nearly all OECD countries. This goes way beyond guns.

I'm sure people with PhD's in Sociology are debating it and don't have an answer. We're a young nation in the world as a whole, we have a short and violent history. Maybe the US is going through the "Angsty Moody Teen Years" of country-ness?

[Rip]

The terrible 200s

[Paingod]

Don't know if it's been posted here.

Buying a gun in Japan, YouTube video from 2013.

[Enough]

Because of course they did.

The National Rifle Association (NRA) on Thursday said it opposes legislation in both the House and the Senate that would ban the use of bump stocks, a device that can be used to increase a semi-automatic rifle’s rate of gunfire and was found in the hotel room of the suspected Las Vegas shooter.

“The NRA opposes the Feinstein and Curbelo legislation,” Jennifer Baker, the director of public affairs for the NRA’s Institute for Legislative Action (ILA), told The Hill, referencing legislation in both chambers.

[gbasden]

Because of course they did.

The National Rifle Association (NRA) on Thursday said it opposes legislation in both the House and the Senate that would ban the use of bump stocks, a device that can be used to increase a semi-automatic rifle’s rate of gunfire and was found in the hotel room of the suspected Las Vegas shooter.

“The NRA opposes the Feinstein and Curbelo legislation,” Jennifer Baker, the director of public affairs for the NRA’s Institute for Legislative Action (ILA), told The Hill, referencing legislation in both chambers.

Of course. It simply goes to show that even with something of no sporting purpose where the only real use is in mass murder the NRA still comes down on the side of more killing and more death.

[Kraken]

Because of course they did.

The National Rifle Association (NRA) on Thursday said it opposes legislation in both the House and the Senate that would ban the use of bump stocks, a device that can be used to increase a semi-automatic rifle’s rate of gunfire and was found in the hotel room of the suspected Las Vegas shooter.

“The NRA opposes the Feinstein and Curbelo legislation,” Jennifer Baker, the director of public affairs for the NRA’s Institute for Legislative Action (ILA), told The Hill, referencing legislation in both chambers.

Of course. It simply goes to show that even with something of no sporting purpose where the only real use is in mass murder the NRA still comes down on the side of more killing and more death.

When your entire mission boils down to the word No, your members know exactly what you stand for and what to expect. As soon as it starts entertaining shades of gray, the NRA's message starts to waver. There must never be any doubts. Its power comes from its simple purity. Well, that and eleventy billion dollars.

[Enough]

And in terms of Rip's preferred BATF regulation approach, per the ever conservative National Review, they lack the proper authority to make such a change.

Paul Ryan has said that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, not Congress, should be the one making the change. “I’d frankly like to know how it happened in the first place,” he added. I explained here how it happened. The text of the law simply does not give the ATF the authority to regulate these devices. Believe me, if it were otherwise, the Obama ATF would not have certified the legality of at least two of these products. Conservatives have long insisted, correctly, that Congress, not the executive branch, should write laws. They shouldn’t discard this principle as soon as making laws becomes difficult.

I am not an expert on this law, but the article's claims seem to make sense to me.

[Kasey Chang]

Someone wrote down what I thought about the most bogus fallacy of 2nd amendment...

Thomas Jefferson believed that “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants.” These thoughts led directly to the Second Amendment, which protects the idea of armed rebellion as a limitation on governmental power. This idea is what is intended to be protected, not the physical objects of guns, whether or not in the context of a militia. But guns are now as obsolete for rebellion as the printing press is for freedom of the press.

The problem is that the disparity of destructive power between the weaponry of the government and the weaponry that people can own has become too great. Even if all citizens were armed with fully automatic assault rifles, this arsenal would pale in comparison to the firepower available to state and local police forces, never mind the world-ending power of the national armed forces.

https://medium.com/ginsudo/youre-wrong- ... 5af5253674

2nd amendment, as written, had been obsolete since Gatling guns were introduced.

[LawBeefaroni]

If you think tyranny will take the form of drone attacks, bomber sorties, and nuclear detonations, sure.

[Kasey Chang]

If you think tyranny will take the form of drone attacks, bomber sorties, and nuclear detonations, sure.

Don't even need that. Local SWAT teams are powerful enough to take on most threats. And drones can easily do surveillance. No need to call out the army for that.

[Isgrimnur]

And yet we’ve been in Afghanistan for fourteen years.

[LawBeefaroni]

If you think tyranny will take the form of drone attacks, bomber sorties, and nuclear detonations, sure.

Don't even need that. Local SWAT teams are powerful enough to take on most threats. And drones can easily do surveillance. No need to call out the army for that.

Even someone with a .308 bolt action can give SWAT fits. A bunch of individuals with various small arms can stop SWAT cold. Several million individuals with small arms are a bit of a problem.


Drones can survey all they want. Unless you're dropping bombs you'll need to follow up with boots.

[Kasey Chang]

Even someone with a .308 bolt action can give SWAT fits. A bunch of individuals with various small arms can stop SWAT cold. Several million individuals with small arms are a bit of a problem.

Agreed. That's when SWAT roll out the surplus armored cars they've been getting from the army, and rules of engagement go out the window and deadly force is authorized, like when they used the bomb on that gunman who barricaded himself in.

The problem with "several million individuals with small arms" is most will simply melt away at the point of any resistance. If a tyranny truly want control, it will do counter-insurgency ops on US soil, and that will be VERY ugly indeed. Red Dawn is fiction, and one of those where the "good guys" win.

US ROE never allowed "no holds barred" counterinsurgency ops in Afghanistan or Vietnam. If it did, Afghanistan would have been done and over with. I may be overly optimistic, but I do know this is drifting way off topic.

[Rip]

There are lots of places in the USA that those fancy toys don't work so well. Like swamps, mountains, dense wilderness.

[Zarathud]

You are in delusional fantasy land if you harbor dreams of saving America with your gun. A modern day tyrant has so many more tools available than in the Revolutionary War.

Anyone hiding out where they can't be found becomes only a nuisance.

[Rip]

I am more interested in being among the 10% that live after we are decimated by an EMP attack.

[LawBeefaroni]

You are in delusional fantasy land if you harbor dreams of saving America with your gun. A modern day tyrant has so many more tools available than in the Revolutionary War.

Anyone hiding out where they can't be found becomes only a nuisance.

Pragmatically, it's not so much about saving America, it's more about making it more difficult to destroy America. It would be a political nightmare to pit US military and police against armed citizens on a massive scale. Let's say like if a President decides to enforce some fucked up executive order.


Sure, some people do have that delusional Invasion USA type fantasy about saving the world with their home arsenal but those people are just votes.

[LawBeefaroni]

Ho hum. And it's only Sunday morning. Can't wait for winter weather.

Willing to bet all were from illegal guns in the hands of felons. Didn't Trump command the ATF send like 20 agents here? Have they recovered a single firearm yet?

[Punisher]

I am more interested in being among the 10% that live after we are decimated by an EMP attack. living in a Zombie Apocalypse

fixed