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Gun Politics

For discussion of religion and politics

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El Guapo
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by El Guapo » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:42 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:53 am
El Guapo wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:23 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:02 am
Normal people don't go shoot other people. Just possessing a gun doesn't make normal people go shoot other people. It's a people problem.
Yeah, all we need to do is fix people. In any event, the bigger issue with the "it's a problem with people argument" is that it doesn't really explain the vast differences in frequency of mass shootings between nations (and really, between the United States and most nations), unless you think there is something uniquely American about shooting a lot of people.
You could have included the next sentence:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:02 am
Granted you can fix access much easier than fixing people so ultimately we probably need to work on both.
Right, but the thing is that I'm not disagreeing with that part (the "do anything that works" part). I'm saying that if "people" (and the fixing thereof) were a part of the problem, you would need to account for why mass shooting rates are disproportionately high in the United States. Presumably either there is something uniquely problematic about people in the United States, or the problem is disproportionately about access to guns rather than "people".

But again, all for any combination of things that works.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:18 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:23 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:19 am
Fort Hood was two handguns, one being a revolver. 46 shot with 14 fatalaties. On a military base.
Regular military personnel do not carry weapons, and certainly not combat loaded, while on base.
Of course not. But they have shooter protocols and base security. I think a civilian police officer engaged the shooter within a few minutes but he shot her. Several individuals attempted to subdue the shooter as well, with improvised weapons. Point was that it wasn't a school or concert or theater and a pair of handguns still did that much damage (and could have done a lot more if he hadn't intentionally avoided civilian targets).

Modern firearms are extremely effective at killing. All of them, not just the scary looking rifles.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:22 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:42 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:53 am
El Guapo wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:23 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:02 am
Normal people don't go shoot other people. Just possessing a gun doesn't make normal people go shoot other people. It's a people problem.
Yeah, all we need to do is fix people. In any event, the bigger issue with the "it's a problem with people argument" is that it doesn't really explain the vast differences in frequency of mass shootings between nations (and really, between the United States and most nations), unless you think there is something uniquely American about shooting a lot of people.
You could have included the next sentence:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:02 am
Granted you can fix access much easier than fixing people so ultimately we probably need to work on both.
Right, but the thing is that I'm not disagreeing with that part (the "do anything that works" part). I'm saying that if "people" (and the fixing thereof) were a part of the problem, you would need to account for why mass shooting rates are disproportionately high in the United States. Presumably either there is something uniquely problematic about people in the United States, or the problem is disproportionately about access to guns rather than "people".

But again, all for any combination of things that works.
Well, look at who we elected to be our president.


Point taken though. If we flooded England with the same per capita number of firearms we have there would be more shootings, no doubt. Would it equal our rate? Don't know. Would there be asany mass shootings? Don't know.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by El Guapo » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:24 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:18 pm
Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:23 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:19 am
Fort Hood was two handguns, one being a revolver. 46 shot with 14 fatalaties. On a military base.
Regular military personnel do not carry weapons, and certainly not combat loaded, while on base.
Of course not. But they have shooter protocols and base security. I think a civilian police officer engaged the shooter within a few minutes but he shot her. Several individuals attempted to subdue the shooter as well, with improvised weapons. Point was that it wasn't a school or concert or theater and a pair of handguns still did that much damage (and could have done a lot more if he hadn't intentionally avoided civilian targets).

Modern firearms are extremely effective at killing. All of them, not just the scary looking rifles.
Right, but again if the problem were primarily "modern firearms are better at killing", then presumably we would be seeing similar patterns of mass shootings between countries. That we are not (as I understand it) suggests that it's not some natural byproduct of the increase in firearms lethality, but is due at least in significant part to how these firearms are regulated from country to country.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Enough » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:19 pm

For f'ing f's sake. U.S. Rep. Ralph Norman pulls out loaded gun in constituent meeting to make point about safety
U.S. Rep. Ralph Norman, R-Rock Hill, told The Post and Courier he pulled out the weapon and placed it on a table for several minutes in attempt to make a point that guns are only dangerous in the hands of criminals. He was speaking to constituents about gun violence during a public meeting at a diner in Rock Hill.

"I'm not going to be a Gabby Giffords," Norman said afterward, referring to a former Arizona congresswoman who was shot outside a Tucson-area grocery store in 2011. "I don't mind dying, but whoever shoots me better shoot well or I'm shooting back."
Lori Carter, who also attended the meeting, said Norman put the gun on the table about 20 minutes in the conversation. She said he had just finished telling the group that gun violence is a mental or emotional issue, not a gun issue.

"And then he chose to take the gun out and put it on the table not knowing if any of us had mental health issues," said Carter, a public school teacher from Charlotte, N.C. "What was to prevent me from leaning across the table to take that gun? So to me, it was contradictory."
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by PLW » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:21 pm

I campaigned for his opponent and we almost won.

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Gun Politics

Post by Zarathud » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:05 pm

If you won't ever agree to a complete ban on guns, then you can't criticize banning only some some guns for not fixing 100% of the problem.

Similarly, it's illogical to insist that we fix the impossible problem of people instead of the easier problem of access to guns.

There can be no perfect solution when the NRA fights doing anything at all.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:30 pm

Enough wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:19 pm
For f'ing f's sake. U.S. Rep. Ralph Norman pulls out loaded gun in constituent meeting to make point about safety
U.S. Rep. Ralph Norman, R-Rock Hill, told The Post and Courier he pulled out the weapon and placed it on a table for several minutes in attempt to make a point that guns are only dangerous in the hands of criminals. He was speaking to constituents about gun violence during a public meeting at a diner in Rock Hill.

"I'm not going to be a Gabby Giffords," Norman said afterward, referring to a former Arizona congresswoman who was shot outside a Tucson-area grocery store in 2011. "I don't mind dying, but whoever shoots me better shoot well or I'm shooting back."
Lori Carter, who also attended the meeting, said Norman put the gun on the table about 20 minutes in the conversation. She said he had just finished telling the group that gun violence is a mental or emotional issue, not a gun issue.

"And then he chose to take the gun out and put it on the table not knowing if any of us had mental health issues," said Carter, a public school teacher from Charlotte, N.C. "What was to prevent me from leaning across the table to take that gun? So to me, it was contradictory."
I would have paid good money for someone to casually reach across the table and take that gun, just to see his reaction.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:36 am

Enough wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:19 pm
For f'ing f's sake. U.S. Rep. Ralph Norman pulls out loaded gun in constituent meeting to make point about safety
U.S. Rep. Ralph Norman, R-Rock Hill, told The Post and Courier he pulled out the weapon and placed it on a table for several minutes in attempt to make a point that guns are only dangerous in the hands of criminals. He was speaking to constituents about gun violence during a public meeting at a diner in Rock Hill.

"I'm not going to be a Gabby Giffords," Norman said afterward, referring to a former Arizona congresswoman who was shot outside a Tucson-area grocery store in 2011. "I don't mind dying, but whoever shoots me better shoot well or I'm shooting back."
Lori Carter, who also attended the meeting, said Norman put the gun on the table about 20 minutes in the conversation. She said he had just finished telling the group that gun violence is a mental or emotional issue, not a gun issue.

"And then he chose to take the gun out and put it on the table not knowing if any of us had mental health issues," said Carter, a public school teacher from Charlotte, N.C. "What was to prevent me from leaning across the table to take that gun? So to me, it was contradictory."
If it's not on you, it's not yours. Pretty basic rule of carry safety. The guy is an idiot and shouldn't be carrying a firearm. He undoubtedly muzzled someone as well.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Kraken » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:42 am

Federal judge upholds Mass. assault weapons ban
A federal judge on Friday dismissed a lawsuit that challenged Massachusetts’ 20-year ban on assault weapons, delivering a significant victory to gun-control advocates and to Attorney General Maura Healey, who had warned sellers of “copycat” firearms that they risked prosecution.

In his ruling, US District Judge William Young of Massachusetts wrote that the state’s ban on assault weapons and large-capacity magazines does not violate the right to bear arms under the Second Amendment.

“The AR-15 and its analogs, along with large capacity magazines, are simply not weapons within the original meaning of the individual constitutional right to ‘bear Arms,’ ” Young wrote in a 47-page ruling. “In the absence of federal legislation, Massachusetts is free to ban these weapons and large-capacity magazines. Other states are equally free to leave them unregulated and available to their law-abiding citizens. These policy matters are simply not of constitutional moment.”

Young cited a landmark 2008 Supreme Court decision that found that “weapons that are most useful in military service — M-16 rifles and the like” are not protected under the Second Amendment and “may be banned.”

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Isgrimnur » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:06 pm

AR-15s aren't useful in military service because they do not support burst or automatic fire.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by em2nought » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:17 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:06 pm
AR-15s aren't useful in military service because they do not support burst or automatic fire.
Magazine fed semi-autos are close enough to a military weapon to let "we the people" feel like we'd at least have a shot equal to what the Vietcong had (against our government) if it ever came to it. :horse:
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Smoove_B » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:29 pm

Well, this should be interesting:
Gov. Phil Murphy wants you to have better access to info about New Jersey's gun violence -- including where the firearms used in those crimes come from.

Murphy on Friday signed an executive order for the state to issue monthly reports online about gun crimes, showing where they occur, how many people were killed or injured, and the type of weapon involved.

And every three months, New Jersey will publish a report listing the states from which those guns originated.

"If it means naming and shaming other states, that's exactly what we're going do," Murphy, a Democrat, said during a news conference at Asbury Park Middle School.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by hepcat » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:25 pm

em2nought wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:17 pm
Isgrimnur wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:06 pm
AR-15s aren't useful in military service because they do not support burst or automatic fire.
Magazine fed semi-autos are close enough to a military weapon to let "we the people" feel like we'd at least have a shot equal to what the Vietcong had (against our government) if it ever came to it. :horse:
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by em2nought » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:53 am

hepcat wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:25 pm
em2nought wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:17 pm
Isgrimnur wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:06 pm
AR-15s aren't useful in military service because they do not support burst or automatic fire.
Magazine fed semi-autos are close enough to a military weapon to let "we the people" feel like we'd at least have a shot equal to what the Vietcong had (against our government) if it ever came to it. :horse:
Did you know Vietnam is a country thousands of miles away? Seriously, it’s true.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Chaz » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:38 am

So since apparently there's no regulations we should even bother passing because they won't solve the problem completely, what if we just pass a law that says all guns must be painted neon pink? It sounds crazy, but hear me out!

- Existing guns can be painted pink, so it should be easy for everyone to comply.
- If guns are bright pink, maybe the tacticool guys will think they're less manly, and go find a different hobby.
- It should help cops start mistaking everyday objects black men and kids are holding for guns, and either cut down on police shootings, or make it easier to prosecute.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by hepcat » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:29 am

em2nought wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:53 am
hepcat wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:25 pm
em2nought wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:17 pm
Isgrimnur wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:06 pm
AR-15s aren't useful in military service because they do not support burst or automatic fire.
Magazine fed semi-autos are close enough to a military weapon to let "we the people" feel like we'd at least have a shot equal to what the Vietcong had (against our government) if it ever came to it. :horse:
Did you know Vietnam is a country thousands of miles away? Seriously, it’s true.
...and we could put a man on the moon back then. Today we can't even decide which bathroom to use.
No, the right wants to decide for you. That’s kind of their thing, telling folks how they should act. They hate freedom.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:56 am

em2nought wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:53 am
...and we could put a man on the moon back then. Today we can't even decide which bathroom to use.
Oh, people can decide that just fine. It's whether or not conservatives demand you be arrested for that choice that's the issue.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Rip » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:59 am

Reagan Stevens, a deputy director in the Mayor’s Office of Criminal Justice, and two young men were arrested for illegal weapons possession while sitting in a double-parked car near the scene of a Saturday night shooting in Queens, cops said.

A loaded, 9mm semi-automatic pistol with its serial number defaced was hidden in the car’s glovebox, and there was a spent shell casing on the floor near Stevens’ feet in the rear of the 2002 dark red Infiniti SUV, law enforcement sources said.
Stevens, Hughes and Forbes were each charged with two counts of criminal possession of a weapon — one for the gun being loaded, another for its illegally obscured serial number — because no one admitted owning the pistol, sources said.

Cops were also weighing charges involving its firing, based on the video that traces the shots to the car, sources said.

Forbes and Hughes also were charged with criminal possession of a weapon related to the knives they allegedly were carrying, and Forbes was also ticketed for double parking, cops said.

Hughes’ rap sheet lists nine prior arrests, six of which are sealed. The others include an October 2010 bust in Queens on robbery and weapons charges, and a July 2016 arrest on firearm, trespassing and harassment charges, sources said.

Stevens has a sealed 2015 arrest that stemmed from allegations of driving illegally, while Forbes has no criminal record, sources said.

Stevens was released on her own recognizance, according to a spokeswoman for the Queens DA’s office. Meanwhile, Forbes was held on $3,500 bail or $7,500 bond, and Hughes was held on $10,000 bail or $20,000 bond. They are due back in court on April 24.
https://nypost.com/2018/04/08/director- ... ossession/

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:00 pm

And your point is...?
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Zaxxon » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:16 pm

Why do you peop... Ah, I give up. Carry on.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Rip » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:20 pm

Skinypupy wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:00 pm
And your point is...?
Umm, that gun control crazy NY's mayor has a Deputy Director of Criminal Justice who likes to ride around with an illegal weapon with a removed serial number shooting stuff with her homies.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:21 pm

Hypocrites on both sides?! Won't someone fetch my my fainting couch?
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Rip » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:28 pm

Hypocrites on both sides so it doesn't matter? Good to know, I will put that in my tool belt and refer back to this when I am criticized for pointing out that exact thing the next time a pro-2nd politician turns out to be a hypocrite.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by hepcat » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:30 pm

Zaxxon wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:16 pm
Why do you peop... Ah, I give up. Carry on.
Dude, we're really close to changing his opinion. Maybe two or three more replies!

p.s. using this bit of rip logic I can safely say that he considers Trump guilty of collusion with Russia because of the actions of Manafort alone. So...yay team!

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Combustible Lemur » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:41 pm

So I read the article and I fail to see the liberal hypocrisy. Dumb person who has a criminal justice job breaks law. Surveillance tool identifies violation; cops arrest alleged criminals. Alleged criminals go through system.
What does this have to do with the political views of her ultimate boss? Is she a personal appointee, a career employee, a professional hire?

If a manager at Walmart shops at kroger, are the Waltons hypocrites?

I mean the woman is a hypocrite, but nothing in the article suggests she's politically liberal or anti personal gun freedom. Particularly with a family of judges. Doesn't strike me as an overtly liberal family.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:30 pm

Zaxxon wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:16 pm
Why do you peop... Ah, I give up. Carry on.
I admit to getting a laugh out of the doubling-down on the initial stupidity. It's a character flaw of mine. :oops:
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Enough » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:11 pm

Vermont's Republican governor signed into law some fairly extensive gun control measures today that among other things:
  • Vermont’s new law raises the minimum age for gun buyers to 21
  • Bans bump stocks
  • Requires gun transactions to be facilitated by a licensed dealer who would perform background checks
  • Limits rifle magazines to 10 rounds
At least one state is showing bipartisan action CAN happen on guns if we have the will, albeit you probably have to be a maple-syrup-loving hippy but hey. 8-)
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Remus West » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:57 am

Maple Syrup?
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:26 am

At least one state is showing bipartisan action CAN happen on guns if we have the will, albeit you probably have to be a maple-syrup-loving hippy but hey.
Not necessarily. Most of these are already on the books in Illinois. With more restrictive laws on the books in various cities and suburbs, or Cook County.
  • Vermont’s new law raises the minimum age for gun buyers to 21
- Illinois FOID requirement is 21. Over 18 can apply for FOID with FOID-issued parent sponsorship. 21 age limit for "assault rifles" regardless of FOID status. FOID is required for all firearms and ammunition purchases and possession in the state. Shops in border states also enforce this for Illinois residents.
  • Bans bump stocks
- Banned in the state in February I think. Previously banned by common sense, mostly.
  • Requires gun transactions to be facilitated by a licensed dealer who would perform background checks
- required in Illinois except for private sales of long guns. Private sales require proof of FOID (FOID requires background check) and 10 year retention of record of sale/transfer.

  • Limits rifle magazines to 10 rounds
- no state limit here but in Cook County, Chicago, and many suburbs "assault rifles" are banned outright. Many municipalities also have rifle and handgun magazine limits.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Enough » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:22 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:26 am
At least one state is showing bipartisan action CAN happen on guns if we have the will, albeit you probably have to be a maple-syrup-loving hippy but hey.
Not necessarily. Most of these are already on the books in Illinois. With more restrictive laws on the books in various cities and suburbs, or Cook County.
  • Vermont’s new law raises the minimum age for gun buyers to 21
- Illinois FOID requirement is 21. Over 18 can apply for FOID with FOID-issued parent sponsorship. 21 age limit for "assault rifles" regardless of FOID status. FOID is required for all firearms and ammunition purchases and possession in the state. Shops in border states also enforce this for Illinois residents.
  • Bans bump stocks
- Banned in the state in February I think. Previously banned by common sense, mostly.
  • Requires gun transactions to be facilitated by a licensed dealer who would perform background checks
- required in Illinois except for private sales of long guns. Private sales require proof of FOID (FOID requires background check) and 10 year retention of record of sale/transfer.

  • Limits rifle magazines to 10 rounds
- no state limit here but in Cook County, Chicago, and many suburbs "assault rifles" are banned outright. Many municipalities also have rifle and handgun magazine limits.
Indeed, I may have slightly over-emphasized in the name of comedic effect heh, my bad. But regardless, it is rare to see in the here and now.
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LawBeefaroni
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:54 pm

People just don't seem to know that we have the fabled driver's license for guns here. I'd like to see some kind of basic shooting/safety test but it does have a rigorous background check. And it's required for ammo. Like needing a driver's license to buy gas.
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Kasey Chang
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Kasey Chang » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:14 am

Learned two things today

"ammosexual" -- better known as "gun nut", with a negative connotation

Apparently, a bunch of NRA supporters are posting videos of them shooting holes in Yeti cooler products because Yeti cut ties with the NRA.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Rip » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:55 am

Kasey Chang wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:14 am
Learned two things today

"ammosexual" -- better known as "gun nut", with a negative connotation

Apparently, a bunch of NRA supporters are posting videos of them shooting holes in Yeti cooler products because Yeti cut ties with the NRA.
The horror, next thing you know people will boycott restaurants for not catering to their political beliefs. Unthinkable.

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GreenGoo
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:47 am

Shrug. They had to shoot something. Hopefully they paid full price for their targets.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Max Peck » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:54 am

Rip wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:55 am
Kasey Chang wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:14 am
Learned two things today

"ammosexual" -- better known as "gun nut", with a negative connotation

Apparently, a bunch of NRA supporters are posting videos of them shooting holes in Yeti cooler products because Yeti cut ties with the NRA.
The horror, next thing you know people will boycott restaurants for not catering to their political beliefs. Unthinkable.
A better analogy would be buying food from a restaurant, then throwing it out instead of eating it. Unless the ammosexuals were shooting up Yeti coolers that didn't belong to them, of course.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by YellowKing » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:15 am

Maybe when corporations start cutting ties to something you love, you should take a long hard look in the mirror and try to understand why that is. And maybe admit that what you support is not something a majority of other people support...for good reason.

It was astounding to see, during the whole NC bathroom law brouhaha, how the governor and his supporters would act like companies pulling out of doing business with the state was somehow an unprovoked attack.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:00 pm

The NRA decided they needed to complain that the guy who stopped the Waffle House shooter did so without a gun.

No, really.
GRANT STINCHFIELD (HOST): What amazes me is people have been tweeting at me, these folks on the left, somehow saying this proves that you don’t need a good guy with a gun because James -- if anything, it proves to me that he had more guts, and he was braver without the gun. But clearly if someone was there with a gun, we wouldn’t be having a manhunt right now. It doesn’t take away from the fact that a gun could have been useful in this situation.

[...]

STINCHFIELD: Anybody, whether it was Mr. Shaw, whether it was somebody else, if they had a gun, we wouldn’t be having a manhunt right now. OK? It takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun. Yes, a good guy with guts stopped a bad guy with a gun momentarily, but he didn’t stop him permanently. And this guy is still on the loose.
Fuck these assholes.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Enough » Wed May 02, 2018 6:05 pm

Le sigh...

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Holman » Fri May 04, 2018 5:05 pm



link
"Your Second Amendment rights are under siege, but they will never, ever be under siege as long as I'm your president," President Trump said during NRA speech.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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