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Gun Politics

For discussion of religion and politics

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YellowKing
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by YellowKing » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:35 pm

I'm still struggling with the logic that putting more guns on school campuses where there were none previously actually *increases* school safety. It's far more likely some kid winds up with one of those guns and shoots themselves or someone else than that it actually stops a school shooter.

That's like saying the best way to prevent bulls in your china shop is to fill it with buffalos.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:00 pm

Buffalo, the arch-archnemeses of bulls everywhere.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:08 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:35 pm
I'm still struggling with the logic that putting more guns on school campuses where there were none previously actually *increases* school safety. It's far more likely some kid winds up with one of those guns and shoots themselves or someone else than that it actually stops a school shooter.

That's like saying the best way to prevent bulls in your china shop is to fill it with buffalos.
Buffalo Bill, you mean. Yeee-haw!

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:41 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:35 pm
I'm still struggling with the logic that putting more guns on school campuses where there were none previously actually *increases* school safety. It's far more likely some kid winds up with one of those guns and shoots themselves or someone else than that it actually stops a school shooter.

That's like saying the best way to prevent bulls in your china shop is to fill it with buffalos.
In reading the report (not done yet), there are a couple of factors why this is so, from my first impressions of the actual report text:

1. Most of the commission (60%+) are Sheriffs/Sheriffs officers/former Sheriffs/Officers.

-Sheriffs/Deputies/Sheriffs Officers as elected officials/beholden elected Sheriffs tend to be horrific at this in my opinion. I would think that many those affiliated, if not all, on the commission are card-carrying NRA members, and I would not be surprised at all if the Sheriffs listed had receive NRA lobbying support of some kind. Maybe I'm just biased however (part of it is how often when we see bad/violent/illegal Law Enforcement practices, they are 99% Sheriff's offices, not Police Departments), but that does explain it to a degree to me

2. They *didn't* look at the risks of arming teachers who want to be armed, just the disaster response options (or maybe, just maybe, I didn't get that far yet).

- in other words, they viewed it through a risk-free lens in terms of responding to this particular emergency, and how it would have helped *only* in the response. Not at the overall risk of more guns on campus. I didn't see any thought, much less analysis of those risks (such as, a student getting a teacher's weapon, a teacher misuing the weapon, a teacher mis reading the situation and/or shooting the wrong student, a teacher being shot by first responders accidentally, etc.).
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm

There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Fitzy » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:24 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Sheriff departments and police departments are often very different culturally, even within some overlapping jurisdictions.

Edit: als, do you have an in with another universe? Cause I’m ready to move.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:25 pm

Fitzy wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:24 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Sheriff departments and police departments are often very different culturally, even within some overlapping jurisdictions.
Yup, just think Sheriffs Joe and Clark
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:33 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Every cop I know tells me to carry wherever I can legally. They don't have a problem with law abiding citizens carrying. That's what they are too, after all.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:49 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:33 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Every cop I know tells me to carry wherever I can legally. They don't have a problem with law abiding citizens carrying. That's what they are too, after all.
Sure. Responding to a 911 call where people are shooting at each other must be a dream come true for them. Like I said, this universe is an anomaly.

They might be citizens, but they ain't private citizens. I leave the "law abiding" alone.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:56 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:33 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Every cop I know tells me to carry wherever I can legally. They don't have a problem with law abiding citizens carrying. That's what they are too, after all.
Well, there is Philando Castile... they do apparently have a problem with black law abiding citizens carrying...
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:49 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:33 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:17 pm
There is zero chance police advocate more private citizens carry firearms in any universe but this one. Not the ones that know they will be responding to the emergency call anyway.
Every cop I know tells me to carry wherever I can legally. They don't have a problem with law abiding citizens carrying. That's what they are too, after all.
Sure. Responding to a 911 call where people are shooting at each other must be a dream come true for them. Like I said, this universe is an anomaly.

They might be citizens, but they ain't private citizens. I leave the "law abiding" alone.

Funny thing, when they respond to a shooting it very rarely involves legal carriers shooting at each other.

I'm not saying everyone, or even most people, should carry, just that the wild west scenarios that are constantly trotted out don't happen when people do. Legally.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 pm


Funny thing, when they respond to a shooting it very rarely involves legal carriers shooting at each other.

I'm not saying everyone, or even most people, should carry, just that the wild west scenarios that are constantly trotted out don't happen when people do. Legally.
Assuming people legally carry so they can shoot other people when threatened, and being threatened is often criminals, in the first few moments of police arrival, which are the bad guys? Your life depends on it. Decide.

You can't have it both ways. Either you're carrying for self defense and thus wild west, or there is no wild west so no need to carry. I don't care which it is, just pick one.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Punisher » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 pm


Funny thing, when they respond to a shooting it very rarely involves legal carriers shooting at each other.

I'm not saying everyone, or even most people, should carry, just that the wild west scenarios that are constantly trotted out don't happen when people do. Legally.
Assuming people legally carry so they can shoot other people when threatened, and being threatened is often criminals, in the first few moments of police arrival, which are the bad guys? Your life depends on it. Decide.

You can't have it both ways. Either you're carrying for self defense and thus wild west, or there is no wild west so no need to carry. I don't care which it is, just pick one.
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:56 am

Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
Totally simple. Unarmed people who obey cops instructions are dying occasionally, but firing at another human being when a cop shows up and surviving is totally simple.

Only in America, god love ya.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Punisher » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:07 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:56 am
Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
Totally simple. Unarmed people who obey cops instructions are dying occasionally, but firing at another human being when a cop shows up and surviving is totally simple.

Only in America, god love ya.
Well, this is under the safe assumption that this is a known program between the police and teachers and they would be aware of whats going on. Plus, according to you, if they are unarmed they have a chance of being shot anyway, so why not give them the chance to take their chances with the police and be armed and possibly stop the bad guy and avoid getting shot by them.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:42 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 pm


Funny thing, when they respond to a shooting it very rarely involves legal carriers shooting at each other.

I'm not saying everyone, or even most people, should carry, just that the wild west scenarios that are constantly trotted out don't happen when people do. Legally.
Assuming people legally carry so they can shoot other people when threatened, and being threatened is often criminals, in the first few moments of police arrival, which are the bad guys? Your life depends on it. Decide.

Police arrival is almost always after the shooting is done. (Active shooters whose goal is to kill until dead or captured are the exception). That's why people carry. Police response time is measured in minutes. Shootings tend to last seconds. Proper training addresses what to do prior to and upon police arrival. But even then, you have to accept the risk of being misidentified by police. That's part of the deal.
GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 am
You can't have it both ways. Either you're carrying for self defense and thus wild west, or there is no wild west so no need to carry. I don't care which it is, just pick one.
This is a false dichotomy. The Wild West scenario is the prediction that as soon as CCW is allowed, legal carriers will be shooting each other over parking spaces and bar bets and sidelong glances. It hasn't happened.

Most people who carry don't do so because they think it's the wild west. They carry for that one in a million chance that they will need to use a weapon in self defense. And that doesn't always involve killing or even shooting somone someone. Most defensive gun uses don't put anyone in the hospital or the ground, though you have to be prepared for that if you're going to carry.

And I will admit, there's a certain level of security you feel when well trained and carring that you can't get any other way. Actually, even just the training is a huge piece of mind.


I used to feel the same way, that every carrier wanted to be Charles Bronson and fantasized about shooting street thugs. That's not the case. At least not for a lot more concealed carriers that people think.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Pyperkub » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:59 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
Totally simple. Unarmed people who obey cops instructions are dying occasionally, but firing at another human being when a cop shows up and surviving is totally simple.

Only in America, god love ya.
Again, not in the case of philando Castille. Stopped, for nothing, as I recall, , declared licensed weapon, obeyed commands, did not make any threatening moves or actions, was murdered.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Skinypupy » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:07 pm

Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately.***
***Offer only valid for white people.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Holman » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:48 pm

Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
My wife works with someone (a fellow academic, very accomplished) whose smart, straight-A, book-loving teenage son was drawn-on and roughed-up by cops while sitting on his own porch reading a Neil Gaiman comic.

He didn't draw a weapon and didn't have one, but he almost got cop-shot because he was wearing headphones and didn't notice what was going on until it was almost too late. Three cops were forcing him to the ground before he even understood the scene. They thought he was a threat because he hadn't heard their calls for him to stand and raise his hands.

(The reason: a suspect five blocks away had been described as black and wearing jeans and a hoodie.)

These occasions are not "simple" at all.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:11 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:42 am
The Wild West scenario is the prediction that as soon as CCW is allowed, legal carriers will be shooting each other over parking spaces and bar bets and sidelong glances.
I'll have to take your word on this. Is there somewhere I can see what the definition of wild west is so we can be on the same page?

Having more guns around will result in more incidents involving guns, not that people who ignored the steak knife beside them will suddenly reach for their firearm because it exists.

Wild west in my mind is what happens when everyone carries and decide that witnessing someone stealing their car radio is reason enough for someone to die.

Wild west is when justice comes from a gun, not the law. The law is for afterward, when there is only 1 witness alive to tell us what happened.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Punisher » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:17 pm

Holman wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:48 pm
Punisher wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:11 am
This is simple. If you are the civilian and police arrive. stop and obey their instructions... When they say to put down the weapon or get down or whatever, just comply immediately. do NOT point your weapon at them...In a situation like this in a school, the police would most likely already know that there is a possibility of armed good guy civilians and would most likely have some restraint.
My wife works with someone (a fellow academic, very accomplished) whose smart, straight-A, book-loving teenage son was drawn-on and roughed-up by cops while sitting on his own porch reading a Neil Gaiman comic.

He didn't draw a weapon and didn't have one, but he almost got cop-shot because he was wearing headphones and didn't notice what was going on until it was almost too late. Three cops were forcing him to the ground before he even understood the scene. They thought he was a threat because he hadn't heard their calls for him to stand and raise his hands.

(The reason: a suspect five blocks away had been described as black and wearing jeans and a hoodie.)

These occasions are not "simple" at all.
I am not referring to things out in the wild. Yes, I agree there were/are bad things happening out there to citizens that shouldn't have it happen.
I am speaking specifically on the arming teachers scenario (and I'm not saying its a good idea one way or the other because it would need a lot of specific criteria)... but if it happened and if the teachers were trained properly and if they were partially trained with the police on what to do, when to do it and how to do it, then yes, it would be simple...OK, maybe simpler.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Punisher » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:19 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:11 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:42 am
The Wild West scenario is the prediction that as soon as CCW is allowed, legal carriers will be shooting each other over parking spaces and bar bets and sidelong glances.
I'll have to take your word on this. Is there somewhere I can see what the definition of wild west is so we can be on the same page?

Having more guns around will result in more incidents involving guns, not that people who ignored the steak knife beside them will suddenly reach for their firearm because it exists.

Wild west in my mind is what happens when everyone carries and decide that witnessing someone stealing their car radio is reason enough for someone to die.

Wild west is when justice comes from a gun, not the law. The law is for afterward, when there is only 1 witness alive to tell us what happened.
Then why do we not already see it in mass numbers in the states that have open carry laws? There are already some states where just about anyone can legally carry a gun and we dont see mass numbers of people getting shot for stealing a car radio.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:36 pm

Excellent question. What does the CDC research show?

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:57 am

Grand experiment about to happen in Brazil:
The country with the highest number of murders in the world plans to make it easier for citizens to acquire guns, hoping to help beat back crime
...

Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime
I mean the first logical step would be to get the guns out of the hands of criminals. But I guess if that's impossible...
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Jaymann » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:59 am

The new Wild West.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Punisher » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:06 am

Jaymann wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:59 am
The new Wild West South.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Unagi » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:57 am
Grand experiment about to happen in Brazil:
The country with the highest number of murders in the world plans to make it easier for citizens to acquire guns, hoping to help beat back crime
...

Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime
I mean the first logical step would be to get the guns out of the hands of criminals. But I guess if that's impossible...
Not sure what you mean. You sound sarcastic - as in - You Really do think taking the guns from criminals is a thing, while I think you also realize that's perhaps as easy as it is here (i.e. not happening here in the States)... but then that sorta throws shade on the idea that arming the good people is a working solution to stopping the bad people, where I think you feel that's not a bad idea here (in the States).


I'll be honest. I don't like the idea that Brazil's plan might work. That is pretty much the dystopian future I'd like to avoid the most.
I'm so fucking tired of 'guns'.


edit: ok, maybe you are saying exactly what you said... Since we can't take the guns from criminals, time to saddle-up and deputize the rest of us.... and yeah - that's the dystopian future I dread.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:46 am

Unagi wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:57 am
Grand experiment about to happen in Brazil:
The country with the highest number of murders in the world plans to make it easier for citizens to acquire guns, hoping to help beat back crime
...

Now, Brazil is set to embark on an experiment that will determine what happens when you loosen gun restrictions in a country battling an overpowering wave of gun crime
I mean the first logical step would be to get the guns out of the hands of criminals. But I guess if that's impossible...
Not sure what you mean. You sound sarcastic - as in - You Really do think taking the guns from criminals is a thing, while I think you also realize that's perhaps as easy as it is here (i.e. not happening here in the States)... but then that sorta throws shade on the idea that arming the good people is a working solution to stopping the bad people, where I think you feel that's not a bad idea here (in the States).


I'll be honest. I don't like the idea that Brazil's plan might work. That is pretty much the dystopian future I'd like to avoid the most.
I'm so fucking tired of 'guns'.


edit: ok, maybe you are saying exactly what you said... Since we can't take the guns from criminals, time to saddle-up and deputize the rest of us.... and yeah - that's the dystopian future I dread.
I honestly think that disarming criminals is the best solution. However, this is expensive, difficult, and requires an immense amount if coordinated resources. If you give up on that, as is essentially the case in Brazil, legally armed citizens is really the only way to avoid a criminal dominated society. Because given the chance, criminals will almost always arm themselves.

Prohibiting citizens from protecting themselves when you don't offer them reasonable protection is a government failure.

We haven't given up on taking the illegal guns in the US yet so I'm not advocating the "weapons free" approach here. Though I'd argue that in Cook County we've pretty much given up on prosecuting anyone caught with illegal guns.



And a point of clarification. I do not advocate "deputizing" everyone. Armed citizens should not be stopping crime. The only thing they should be stopping is the imminent grievous bodily harm or death of themselves or others.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Exodor » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:17 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:42 am
This is a false dichotomy. The Wild West scenario is the prediction that as soon as CCW is allowed, legal carriers will be shooting each other over parking spaces and bar bets and sidelong glances. It hasn't happened.

Well...
Two men died after an argument escalated into gunfire in the parking lot of a Home Depot late Thursday, police said.


(obviously we don't know if they were both CCW holders but, still).

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:58 pm

WaPo
A handful of male lawmakers dressed up for a hearing they presided over Tuesday in the New Hampshire House of Representatives, donning pearl necklaces as activists testified about their experiences with gun violence.

Images from the statehouse — where legislators were considering arguments over a bill that would make it easier to take guns away from potentially dangerous people — caromed across social media as critics lobbed accusations of sexism and insensitivity at the necklace-wearing men.

The implication was clear, they said: These politicians thought gun-control activists were “clutching their pearls” in overwrought and self-righteous outrage — and, specifically, female outrage.

The advocates, who were volunteers with the group Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, said they felt mocked, as if some of the lawmakers were not interested in hearing how gun violence has affected their lives.
...
The bill, known as a “red flag” law, would allow family members and law enforcement agencies to obtain court orders that restrict gun access for individuals who may pose an immediate risk to themselves or others. If New Hampshire adopts the legislation, it would join 14 states that have done so, many in the wake of deadly mass shootings.

Watts, who attended the hearing, said she counted at least five representatives — all men — wearing pearls and sitting on the committee that held the hearing. One of them also appeared to sport a pin in the shape of a semiautomatic rifle on his lapel. She snapped photos of the lawmakers and posted them on Twitter, where she has nearly 300,000 followers, sparking outrage near and far.

The three lawmakers clearly identifiable in her pictures, Reps. Daryl Abbas, Scott Wallace and David Welch, are all Republicans. Calls to their State House offices were either not returned or were met with busy signals and full voice-mail boxes.
...
Online, members of the Women’s Defense League of New Hampshire, a pro-guns organization, have said Watts and other Moms Demand Action members have it all wrong: the pearls symbolize opposition to the bill itself and support for the Second Amendment and the Women’s Defense League — support for women, not denigration of them.

“The PEARLS are in support of the Women’s Defense League. Women who ACTUALLY PROMOTE GUN SAFETY and WOMEN’S RIGHTS,” tweeted Kimberly Morin, president of the group.

Morin told a local newspaper that they’ve been wearing pearls for this reason since 2016. She accused Watts, who lives in Colorado, of being an out-of-state “paid hack” who is lobbying for gun control legislation from afar and whose group doesn’t understand local politics. In a day-long Twitter offensive, Morin also called the Moms Demand Action volunteers “harpies,” a reference to a creature from Greek mythology that had the body of a bird and the head of a human woman.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Jaymann » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:18 pm

A pearl necklace is a slang term referring to a sexual act in which a man ejaculates semen on or near the neck, chest, or breast of another person.
Is this what they were trying to solicit?
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:51 pm

Don't know about any of that pearl business (?) but Shannon Watts and Moms Demand Action isn't the grassroots, stay at home mom side project they are portrayed as. Watts is a former marketing executive from Monsanto and MDA is like a $40M/year organization last report I saw. They have deep pocket backers with political goals well beyond "common sense" gun control.


As for red flag laws, provided there is due process and penalties for abuse I don't have a big problem with it.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by xenocide » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:50 pm

I had an interesting experience and overheard something the other day I wanted to share. Wasn't sure if I should post this in the randomness thread, Trump thread, or here as it touches them all but here goes.

Little backstory: I bought a raffle ticket to a local conservation organization's fundraiser and happened to win a new shotgun and went to pick it up at a local gun shop.


Everything started normal. I walked in, I know the owner so he saw me and knew why I was there and congratulated me on winning the gun. He showed it to me and I filled out the paperwork and then I had a 5-10 min wait while the instant background check was running.

As I was waiting another customer comes in. In answer to someone's normal "how's it going?" he starts right off into "did you hear what the democrats are doing now?!" "Since Mueller can't find anything....." and I start thinking to myself you mean besides all the guilty pleas and crimes and convictions, etc but I'm not going to get into it with a stranger who is an obvious ultra right and I started to tune him out.

Then I hear him say "They want to bury Trump but the only way that will happen is in a pyramid because that is the only way to bury a god emperor". I know this is some dumb joke he probably saw on facebook or somewhere, and he said it as a joke, but when I looked at him you could tell he thought it was funny but that he was also serious.

Then I looked around the shop with a little more critical eye. More than one person also seemed to take the "god emperor" comment more seriously than a pure joke. Everyone there but me was carrying a handgun on their hip. I mean I even own a handgun myself, but mine is locked in a safe and the idea of carrying it around all day every day seems so crazy to me (even though in my rural area I see it often).

As I said I know a couple of the people that work there. I have even waterfowl hunted with 2 of them before. I by no means felt uncomfortable or unsafe in any way. I am a gun owner and I am an avid waterfowler and upland bird hunter and have spent more than my fair share of time in gun shops and around gun owners. But for the first time in my life I felt out of place and different then the others there. It was a weird experience.

I was cleared in the background check, got my gun and went home.

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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Jaymann » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:38 pm

[Bill Burr]
It's got a nice spread.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:45 pm

Congrats on the raffle, I guess people really do win those!

My local shop is an anomaly, it is in a Jewish/Arab/Indian/Latino neighborhood and it's pretty cop heavy as well. But I definitely feel out of place in a lot of other shops and ranges. Being accustomed to it helps some and I'm not put out except when I'm way out of the way, like, say, a shop in rural Tennessee.

The big difference being that around here only staff can open carry so it's not the normal show and tell circle jerk.

If I'm generous, I'd say that the political rhetoric is dialed up a bit because that's what everyone thinks everyone else wants to hear. If you ever want to put a stop to it, just ask, "How do you feel about Glocks?" or "Wheel gun or autoloader?"
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Holman » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:52 pm

What's weird is that "God Emperor Trump" is a semi-but-not-totally-ironic 4chan thing, or so I thought.

Has it really percolated down to the average God/Guns/Guts Trump supporter?
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Pyperkub » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:22 pm

Data shows more mass shootings in states with more lax gun laws:
The study, from researchers at Columbia, New York University, Boston University, and the University of Pennsylvania, analyzed states’ mass shooting rates, the permissiveness of their firearm laws, and levels of gun ownership from 1998 to 2015. It then tested each of these to see if there was a link.

The result: Where there are more guns, there are more mass shootings. And where gun laws are weaker, there are more mass shootings.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:23 pm

tl;dr: Don't move to Vermont. Alaska seems fine, however.

And the top graph looks like Virginia.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:34 pm

Oh, and linear regression isn't that great.
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Re: Gun Politics

Post by The Meal » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:15 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:34 pm
Oh, and linear regression isn't that great.
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