Where is the Libertarian Party?

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msduncan
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Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by msduncan »

If there was ever a moment for them to seize relevancy, it is NOW. They can't do it with some monotone drone of a candidate. If they could find someone that is very high profile and is a Libertarian - even if they also haven't had a long career in politics (or any for that matter. See: Trump), then this election more than any election in our history could be their moment to ride out on a white horse and rescue the disillusioned.

The libertarians are uniquely able to appeal to portions of each voter base. Ending the war on drugs to the left. Smaller government on the right. Gun rights on the right. Immigration policies on the left. Gay rights on the left. Etc etc.

I mean seriously! Where are they damnit?
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by LordMortis »

msduncan wrote:If there was ever a moment for them to seize relevancy, it is NOW. They can't do it with some monotone drone of a candidate. If they could find someone that is very high profile and is a Libertarian - even if they also haven't had a long career in politics (or any for that matter. See: Trump), then this election more than any election in our history could be their moment to ride out on a white horse and rescue the disillusioned.

The libertarians are uniquely able to appeal to portions of each voter base. Ending the war on drugs to the left. Smaller government on the right. Gun rights on the right. Immigration policies on the left.

I mean seriously! Where are they damnit?
Isn't Gary Johnson the presumptive nominee again? He'd have my vote if his record weren't so slash and burn and worry about the consequences later. OtOH, he talks a great game.

He doesn't seem to have the self promotion gift that Ron Paul did. But then Ron Paul had a lot (way too much) backing from the bigots flocking to Trump.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by msduncan »

LordMortis wrote:
msduncan wrote:If there was ever a moment for them to seize relevancy, it is NOW. They can't do it with some monotone drone of a candidate. If they could find someone that is very high profile and is a Libertarian - even if they also haven't had a long career in politics (or any for that matter. See: Trump), then this election more than any election in our history could be their moment to ride out on a white horse and rescue the disillusioned.

The libertarians are uniquely able to appeal to portions of each voter base. Ending the war on drugs to the left. Smaller government on the right. Gun rights on the right. Immigration policies on the left.

I mean seriously! Where are they damnit?
Isn't Gary Johnson the presumptive nominee again? He'd have my vote if his record weren't so slash and burn and worry about the consequences later. OtOH, he talks a great game.

He doesn't seem to have the self promotion gift that Ron Paul did. But then Ron Paul had a lot (way too much) backing from the bigots flocking to Trump.
And that's my point. They damn near need a celebrity. Not Gary Johnson. They need someone that will overcome the tendency for the press to ignore the party. They need someone that is impossible to ignore.

I dare say the Libertarian message of only using projection of strength and military as a means of protection would have the Bernie supporters in a heartbeat. They could balance that will talk about limited government, gun rights etc. In this election there is unique window of time where the right candidate could weave these ideas together and people would say : why not? It's better than the other two we hate.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Combustible Lemur »

msduncan wrote:
LordMortis wrote:
msduncan wrote:If there was ever a moment for them to seize relevancy, it is NOW. They can't do it with some monotone drone of a candidate. If they could find someone that is very high profile and is a Libertarian - even if they also haven't had a long career in politics (or any for that matter. See: Trump), then this election more than any election in our history could be their moment to ride out on a white horse and rescue the disillusioned.

The libertarians are uniquely able to appeal to portions of each voter base. Ending the war on drugs to the left. Smaller government on the right. Gun rights on the right. Immigration policies on the left.

I mean seriously! Where are they damnit?
Isn't Gary Johnson the presumptive nominee again? He'd have my vote if his record weren't so slash and burn and worry about the consequences later. OtOH, he talks a great game.

He doesn't seem to have the self promotion gift that Ron Paul did. But then Ron Paul had a lot (way too much) backing from the bigots flocking to Trump.
And that's my point. They damn near need a celebrity. Not Gary Johnson. They need someone that will overcome the tendency for the press to ignore the party. They need someone that is impossible to ignore.

I dare say the Libertarian message of only using projection of strength and military as a means of protection would have the Bernie supporters in a heartbeat. They could balance that will talk about limited government, gun rights etc. In this election there is unique window of time where the right candidate could weave these ideas together and people would say : why not? It's better than the other two we hate.
They need Mike Rowe.

I think you're right, and that really clever conservatives could use this boondoggle to create the Libertarian party as it should be fiscal conservative, social liberal. Unfortunately it would take take a mass exodus from the R party. Any individuals trying would just get lost in the noise.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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I'll vote for you MSD!
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Jeff V »

YellowKing wrote:I'll vote for you MSD!
I don't think he wants to be a libertarian as much as he desperately wants someone to siphon votes from Hillary. Any libertarian candidate, no matter how visible, will fail, no question about it. MSD is doing the same thing Trump is doing by urging Bernie to run independently -- he knows that won't cost him votes, that Bernie certainly won't win, but might take enough away from Hillary so he could win.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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What's Charlie Sheen doing these days?
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by msduncan »

Jeff V wrote:
YellowKing wrote:I'll vote for you MSD!
I don't think he wants to be a libertarian as much as he desperately wants someone to siphon votes from Hillary. Any libertarian candidate, no matter how visible, will fail, no question about it. MSD is doing the same thing Trump is doing by urging Bernie to run independently -- he knows that won't cost him votes, that Bernie certainly won't win, but might take enough away from Hillary so he could win.

Really no. A proper Libertarian candidate would siphon voters from both parties. They support LGBT rights, they support reproductive rights, they support immigration, they support gun rights, they want to do away with all the crushing legislation and big government programs, they are against Obamacare or other big government programs, and they are ok with strength in military but not running around policing and invading. It's a real mashup of R and D stances, all which universally support less government telling people what to do, how to do it, and what they can't do.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

msduncan wrote:And that's my point. They damn near need a celebrity. Not Gary Johnson. They need someone that will overcome the tendency for the press to ignore the party. They need someone that is impossible to ignore.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

msduncan wrote:I mean seriously! Where are they damnit?
Here.

Looks like there are 17 Presidential candidates! :shock:

Although only Gary Johnson and John McAfee are taken seriously.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Jeff V »

I thought John McAfee escaped to Canada after being wanted for murder in Belize? :?
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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Austin Petersen - Most Likely to Be Leonardo DiCaprio's Little Brother

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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Kraken »

Jeff V wrote:
YellowKing wrote:I'll vote for you MSD!
I don't think he wants to be a libertarian as much as he desperately wants someone to siphon votes from Hillary. Any libertarian candidate, no matter how visible, will fail, no question about it. MSD is doing the same thing Trump is doing by urging Bernie to run independently -- he knows that won't cost him votes, that Bernie certainly won't win, but might take enough away from Hillary so he could win.
I do not sense that msd wants Trump to win. I could be wrong but I haven't seen him say that.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Jeff V »

Kraken wrote: I do not sense that msd wants Trump to win. I could be wrong but I haven't seen him say that.
He most certainly wants Hillary to lose, ergo, a Trump win.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Kraken »

Jeff V wrote:
Kraken wrote: I do not sense that msd wants Trump to win. I could be wrong but I haven't seen him say that.
He most certainly wants Hillary to lose, ergo, a Trump win.
This thread is evidence that he would like to see both of them lose. As would many of us.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Jeff V »

Kraken wrote:
Jeff V wrote:
Kraken wrote: I do not sense that msd wants Trump to win. I could be wrong but I haven't seen him say that.
He most certainly wants Hillary to lose, ergo, a Trump win.
This thread is evidence that he would like to see both of them lose. As would many of us.
Well, I've felt that way about many a Super Bowl, but it just can't happen. Both the Dems and Reps have too many zombie voters who blindly vote a straight party ticket.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

Jeff V wrote:
Kraken wrote:
Jeff V wrote:
Kraken wrote: I do not sense that msd wants Trump to win. I could be wrong but I haven't seen him say that.
He most certainly wants Hillary to lose, ergo, a Trump win.
This thread is evidence that he would like to see both of them lose. As would many of us.
Well, I've felt that way about many a Super Bowl, but it just can't happen. Both the Dems and Reps have too many zombie voters who blindly vote a straight party ticket.
This. A non-Dem/Rep candidate has zero chance of winning without a billionaire candidate self-financing their election and some kind of ground swell that can organize the grass roots infrastructure required to get on all the ballets, etc. Ross Perot came the closest. Dislike for Trump/Hillary is not enough to inspire this kind of change.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by em2nought »

Combustible Lemur wrote: They need Mike Rowe.
If Mike Rowe ran Libertarian I'd vote for him.
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Jeff V »

em2nought wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote: They need Mike Rowe.
If Mike Rowe ran Libertarian I'd vote for him.
See, I've never heard of a Libertarian expounding a compelling case for leading this country on the global stage. Mike Rowe is a nice guy, seems to be a smart guy in a blue-collar sort of way. I think he'd be clueless on any sort of international issues.

That said, the Republican party could certainly use him for the dirty job of cleaning all of the crap from the tops of their ranks.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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But he sang opera! Surely he's worth more than other Americans.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by em2nought »

Jeff V wrote: I think he'd be clueless on any sort of international issues.
Um, all I seem to be able to do is laugh at that statement after what seems like sixteen years of cluelessness. :doh:
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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em2nought wrote:
Jeff V wrote: I think he'd be clueless on any sort of international issues.
Um, all I seem to be able to do is laugh at that statement after what seems like sixteen years of cluelessness. :doh:
Are you suggesting that after 16 years of foreign policy cluelessness, we should just double (triple?) down and bring in someone else who has no clue what they're doing? Or might it be a good idea to find someone who knows what they're doing?
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by LordMortis »

Jeff V wrote:See, I've never heard of a Libertarian expounding a compelling case for leading this country on the global stage. Mike Rowe is a nice guy, seems to be a smart guy in a blue-collar sort of way. I think he'd be clueless on any sort of international issues.

That said, the Republican party could certainly use him for the dirty job of cleaning all of the crap from the tops of their ranks.
Mike Rowe would be smart enough to bring in people to handle international issues.

He's strong on education where I think we should be strong on education. He's strong on the environment where I think he would be strong on the environment. He's eyuge on rebuilding American infrastructure.

I trust his judgement to find the right people for the economy and International affairs and I'd trust he'd work on finding those people before he ran.

He'll never run. But I'd support him if he did, even in a stronger field than what we have now and that includes my throw away vote for Bernie Sanders.

I'd never see him running on as a libertarian nor would I see the party supporting him. He'd have no problem urging Congress to tax and spend money to fix problems. I'd see him running under a blue collar liberal label and I'd be fine with that.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Jeff V »

LordMortis wrote: Mike Rowe would be smart enough to bring in people to handle international issues.
He'd have to prove he can put together an astute supporting cast (ala Ronald Reagan). However, unlike Reagan, he doesn't have a political legacy to draw from. I'm sure the lady who taught him how to inseminate geese with his index finger is good for something, but probably not a major cabinet post.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by em2nought »

ImLawBoy wrote:
em2nought wrote:
Jeff V wrote: I think he'd be clueless on any sort of international issues.
Um, all I seem to be able to do is laugh at that statement after what seems like sixteen years of cluelessness. :doh:
Are you suggesting that after 16 years of foreign policy cluelessness, we should just double (triple?) down and bring in someone else who has no clue what they're doing? Or might it be a good idea to find someone who knows what they're doing?
I'm suggesting the a ouija board might be better at solving international issues than the people we find. :ninja:
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by LordMortis »

Jeff V wrote:
LordMortis wrote: Mike Rowe would be smart enough to bring in people to handle international issues.
He'd have to prove he can put together an astute supporting cast (ala Ronald Reagan). However, unlike Reagan, he doesn't have a political legacy to draw from. I'm sure the lady who taught him how to inseminate geese with his index finger is good for something, but probably not a major cabinet post.
You are correct. I trust that he could prove it to me. It's not going to happen, so the fact that I doubt he could put together a team with a plan by January, much less November doesn't matter.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Jeff V »

I also don't subscribe to the notion that someone who becomes a famous celebrity could be a good politician. I like Mike Rowe but absolutely nothing I've seen or heard from him indicates he would be qualified for any political office outside of a municipal sanitary office.

But for argument's sake, let's say the Libertarians come up with a candidate that has notoriety and has the chops to run a presidential campaign. Who is the supporting cast of experienced Libertarian stalwarts that will make up the cabinet and be outstanding advisers? Do they even exist? Or would we be fielding an all-rookie team with the expectation they will win the Super Bowl?
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

Jeff V wrote:I thought John McAfee escaped to Canada after being wanted for murder in Belize? :?
John McAfee, Libertarian Party Presidential Candidate, Responds to Wrongful Death Suit Story
Part of the colorful legend of antivirus software pioneer John McAfee, now seeking the presidential candidacy of the Libertarian Party, is the still unsolved 2012 murder of Gregory Faull, a neighbor in Belize.

The Belizean government wanted to question McAfee in relation to the murder. McAfee insists he had nothing to do with it, and that the Belizean government's harassment of him (which began prior to Faull's death) was about his refusal to kowtow to bribery, not any actual belief he was a criminal.

The story of McAfee's Belizean adventures and travails is told at length in one of the ur-sources of the modern McAfee legend, Joshua Davis' 2012 Wired profile. (If you read it you will not be surprised to hear it was optioned for a movie by Warner Bros., a movie still unmade.)
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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Brian wrote:Also, Penn's Sunday School
No surprise that Penn feels the Johnson. I'd be down with a Johnson/Jillette ticket for sure (hence the image I posted above).
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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Brian wrote:Also, Penn's Sunday School
Is he still doing the show? If so, I'll have to add that back to my new phone's podcast subscription.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Kraken »

Word is that Bill Weld will join the ticket as VP. He was a popular and well-respected governor who will certainly help the Libertarians. I was planning to vote for Stein, but I'll give them another look with Weld on board.
Weld’s strategy, according to people with whom he has spoken, is to take advantage of the anticipated media attention paid to two former governors from different parts of the country joining forces, hoping to win sufficient support to land in the televised debates.

If that bank-shot approach works, Weld, according to those who have spoken to him, and Johnson hope to deny Trump — as well as the likely Democratic nominee, former secretary of state Hillary Clinton — the 270 electoral votes needed to win the White House.

That scenario would cast the election into the House of Representatives, which is currently controlled by Republicans.
I'm not following his logic here. He's deserting the GOP because of Trump, but throwing the election into the House would hand it to Trump, right? Unless he thinks the House would revolt and go Libertarian instead....
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

msduncan wrote:If there was ever a moment for them to seize relevancy, it is NOW. They can't do it with some monotone drone of a candidate. If they could find someone that is very high profile and is a Libertarian - even if they also haven't had a long career in politics (or any for that matter. See: Trump), then this election more than any election in our history could be their moment to ride out on a white horse and rescue the disillusioned.

The libertarians are uniquely able to appeal to portions of each voter base. Ending the war on drugs to the left. Smaller government on the right. Gun rights on the right. Immigration policies on the left. Gay rights on the left. Etc etc.

I mean seriously! Where are they damnit?
The problem is that while parts of the libertarian agenda appeal to various other groups all across the political spectrum, there's a very narrow constituency for the entire libertarian agenda. E.g., libertarians can appeal to liberals on social issues and often on paring back the national security state, but said liberals will hate the libertarian advocacy for gutting the federal government generally and especially on economic issues. Similarly there are a lot of conservatives for whom the libertarian advocacy for a very small federal government would have a lot of appeal, but a lot of them would hate the social liberalism.

That's the problem. The libertarian party can sell its issues a la carte but the package together is only appealing to a very small niche.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

Kraken wrote:Word is that Bill Weld will join the ticket as VP. He was a popular and well-respected governor who will certainly help the Libertarians. I was planning to vote for Stein, but I'll give them another look with Weld on board.
Weld’s strategy, according to people with whom he has spoken, is to take advantage of the anticipated media attention paid to two former governors from different parts of the country joining forces, hoping to win sufficient support to land in the televised debates.

If that bank-shot approach works, Weld, according to those who have spoken to him, and Johnson hope to deny Trump — as well as the likely Democratic nominee, former secretary of state Hillary Clinton — the 270 electoral votes needed to win the White House.

That scenario would cast the election into the House of Representatives, which is currently controlled by Republicans.
I'm not following his logic here. He's deserting the GOP because of Trump, but throwing the election into the House would hand it to Trump, right? Unless he thinks the House would revolt and go Libertarian instead....
The idea that a right-wing third party candidate could deny Clinton 270 electoral votes is nonsense.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Grifman »

El Guapo wrote:The problem is that while parts of the libertarian agenda appeal to various other groups all across the political spectrum, there's a very narrow constituency for the entire libertarian agenda. E.g., libertarians can appeal to liberals on social issues and often on paring back the national security state, but said liberals will hate the libertarian advocacy for gutting the federal government generally and especially on economic issues. Similarly there are a lot of conservatives for whom the libertarian advocacy for a very small federal government would have a lot of appeal, but a lot of them would hate the social liberalism.

That's the problem. The libertarian party can sell its issues a la carte but the package together is only appealing to a very small niche.
Exactly this. If there was a group of people that supported their entire package, they wouldn't be in the place they are now - irrelevant.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by GreenGoo »

While I'm not going to try to counter that argument, I'd say both official parties suffer from the same thing. The only difference is that they already have their entrenched voters, who will do anything to keep the "enemy" from gaining power. Tell me that there isn't a huge number of democrats who are holding their noses while voting for Hillary. That may not be because they have trouble with the party in general, but it does show a loyalty despite not being in agreement with the front runner.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Kraken »

GreenGoo wrote:While I'm not going to try to counter that argument, I'd say both official parties suffer from the same thing. The only difference is that they already have their entrenched voters, who will do anything to keep the "enemy" from gaining power. Tell me that there isn't a huge number of democrats who are holding their noses while voting for Hillary. That may not be because they have trouble with the party in general, but it does show a loyalty despite not being in agreement with the front runner.
Trump is himself a powerful reason for Democrats to hold their noses and fall in line. Cruz would have had the same effect. We might have seen less nose-holding had the Republicans nominated an establishment Republican.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by gbasden »

GreenGoo wrote:While I'm not going to try to counter that argument, I'd say both official parties suffer from the same thing. The only difference is that they already have their entrenched voters, who will do anything to keep the "enemy" from gaining power. Tell me that there isn't a huge number of democrats who are holding their noses while voting for Hillary. That may not be because they have trouble with the party in general, but it does show a loyalty despite not being in agreement with the front runner.
That's true, but I think a lot of Democrats do agree with the majority of the party platform. While a lot of us are quite unhappy with Hillary as a candidate, I'm pretty ok with the positions I expect her to hold if elected. If I thought she was going to radically diverge from the positions she had traditionally held I wouldn't hold my nose and vote for her at all.

Mr. Johnson is another thing altogether. I have a lot of respect for him as a person and as would be expected, I love his social positions, and a few of his economic positions, but I can't get behind the wholesale dismantling of government.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by The Meal »

Gary Johnson polling at 10%.
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