Where is the Libertarian Party?
Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus
- Isgrimnur
- Posts: 82308
- Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
- Location: Chookity pok
- Contact:
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41338
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
Black Lives Matter.
- pr0ner
- Posts: 17429
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:00 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia, VA
- Contact:
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Considering the main two US parties set the rules, it's no wonder they're the only two with candidates on stage tonight.El Guapo wrote:Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
Hodor.
- Unagi
- Posts: 26560
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
And he does want to do something with the current government - in that doing less would take some dismantling....
However, Anarchists do NOT deserve any time on the stage.... but he's no anarchist.
However, Anarchists do NOT deserve any time on the stage.... but he's no anarchist.
- Unagi
- Posts: 26560
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: Chicago
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Where is the Anarchy Party?
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41338
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Right, but they set the rules in advance, and third party candidates have on occasion met those standards.pr0ner wrote:Considering the main two US parties set the rules, it's no wonder they're the only two with candidates on stage tonight.El Guapo wrote:Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
That said, I am all for revising U.S. electoral rules and procedures to make third parties viable (especially instant run-off voting) and for opening up the system beyond two parties. I think that should be a focus of any third party campaign, as that's almost an essential predicate for a third party actually succeeding.
Black Lives Matter.
- Isgrimnur
- Posts: 82308
- Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
- Location: Chookity pok
- Contact:
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Nobody showed up for the first meeting.Unagi wrote:Where is the Anarchy Party?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- Zarathud
- Posts: 16525
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
The libertarians deserve nothing. They have to earn it with popular support or a compelling idea that drives the national narrative. Ross Perot met both of those standards -- he framed the question about the national debt and the public responded -- until he dropped out. Hell, I even voted for him anyway!
But I have not called the libertarians anarchists. Just questioned what substance they bring and whether that merits inclusion. I don't care if that doesn't fit your ideal of America or democracy. This debate will already be too much about personality and not enough about substance for my taste -- and watering it down with one (or two if you are consistent and add the Greens) extra people on the stage would make it worse.
But I have not called the libertarians anarchists. Just questioned what substance they bring and whether that merits inclusion. I don't care if that doesn't fit your ideal of America or democracy. This debate will already be too much about personality and not enough about substance for my taste -- and watering it down with one (or two if you are consistent and add the Greens) extra people on the stage would make it worse.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
- pr0ner
- Posts: 17429
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:00 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia, VA
- Contact:
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
I'm pretty sure adding Gary Johnson to the stage would make it MORE about substance and less about personality, especially with the candidates that are already going to be on stage.
Hodor.
- GreenGoo
- Posts: 42343
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Certainly this election cycle.pr0ner wrote:I'm pretty sure adding Gary Johnson to the stage would make it MORE about substance and less about personality, especially with the candidates that are already going to be on stage.
- ImLawBoy
- Forum Admin
- Posts: 14981
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:49 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL
- Contact:
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Nothing that we say here is going to put Johnson into the debates, so this is all really a theoretical discussion, and whether or not having additional ideas at the debate would cause problems tonight is not really relevant.Zarathud wrote:The libertarians deserve nothing. They have to earn it with popular support or a compelling idea that drives the national narrative. Ross Perot met both of those standards -- he framed the question about the national debt and the public responded -- until he dropped out. Hell, I even voted for him anyway!
But I have not called the libertarians anarchists. Just questioned what substance they bring and whether that merits inclusion. I don't care if that doesn't fit your ideal of America or democracy. This debate will already be too much about personality and not enough about substance for my taste -- and watering it down with one (or two if you are consistent and add the Greens) extra people on the stage would make it worse.
That's my purse! I don't know you!
- hepcat
- Posts: 51501
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
They did...but they each showed up to meetings THEY scheduled at locations THEY wanted.Isgrimnur wrote:Nobody showed up for the first meeting.Unagi wrote:Where is the Anarchy Party?
He won. Period.
- pr0ner
- Posts: 17429
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:00 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia, VA
- Contact:
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Actually, there's a decent chance Johnson would be on stage tonight if one used the CPD's rules from 1992, when Perot was on stage with Clinton and Bush.El Guapo wrote:Right, but they set the rules in advance, and third party candidates have on occasion met those standards.pr0ner wrote:Considering the main two US parties set the rules, it's no wonder they're the only two with candidates on stage tonight.El Guapo wrote:Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
That said, I am all for revising U.S. electoral rules and procedures to make third parties viable (especially instant run-off voting) and for opening up the system beyond two parties. I think that should be a focus of any third party campaign, as that's almost an essential predicate for a third party actually succeeding.
Hodor.
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41338
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
What were those rules, and how were they different?pr0ner wrote:Actually, there's a decent chance Johnson would be on stage tonight if one used the CPD's rules from 1992, when Perot was on stage with Clinton and Bush.El Guapo wrote:Right, but they set the rules in advance, and third party candidates have on occasion met those standards.pr0ner wrote:Considering the main two US parties set the rules, it's no wonder they're the only two with candidates on stage tonight.El Guapo wrote:Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
That said, I am all for revising U.S. electoral rules and procedures to make third parties viable (especially instant run-off voting) and for opening up the system beyond two parties. I think that should be a focus of any third party campaign, as that's almost an essential predicate for a third party actually succeeding.
Regardless, for this election I really don't give a shit about anything beyond keeping American Hitler from destroying the republic, so I am all for anything that advances that.
Black Lives Matter.
- Moliere
- Posts: 12370
- Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
- Location: Walking through a desert land
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
- pr0ner
- Posts: 17429
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:00 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia, VA
- Contact:
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
From the Debate Commission website:El Guapo wrote:What were those rules, and how were they different?pr0ner wrote:Actually, there's a decent chance Johnson would be on stage tonight if one used the CPD's rules from 1992, when Perot was on stage with Clinton and Bush.El Guapo wrote:Right, but they set the rules in advance, and third party candidates have on occasion met those standards.pr0ner wrote:Considering the main two US parties set the rules, it's no wonder they're the only two with candidates on stage tonight.El Guapo wrote:Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
That said, I am all for revising U.S. electoral rules and procedures to make third parties viable (especially instant run-off voting) and for opening up the system beyond two parties. I think that should be a focus of any third party campaign, as that's almost an essential predicate for a third party actually succeeding.
Regardless, for this election I really don't give a shit about anything beyond keeping American Hitler from destroying the republic, so I am all for anything that advances that.
There was no hard set 15% rule then.While the panel's recommended candidate selection criteria themselves were quite detailed, they included a review of three types of factors: (1) evidence of national organization, (2) signs of national newsworthiness and competitiveness, and (3) indicators of national public enthusiasm or concern, to determine whether a candidate had a realistic chance of election. The criteria did not consider any one piece of evidence to be determinative. Rather, a variety of evidence was to be reviewed in considering whether a particular candidate had a realistic chance of election.
Hodor.
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41338
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
This election aside, I think I would prefer objective debate admission criterion to subjective ones, as a general matter.
Black Lives Matter.
- GreenGoo
- Posts: 42343
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
I'm just thinking outloud here, but what if his secret service agents never reimbursed Drumpf for their flights?El Guapo wrote: What were those rules, and how were they different?
Regardless, for this election I really don't give a shit about anything beyond keeping American Hitler from destroying the republic, so I am all for anything that advances that.
I'm just asking questions.
- Isgrimnur
- Posts: 82308
- Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
- Location: Chookity pok
- Contact:
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
I'm sure the Congressional hearings would last until 2030.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- gilraen
- Posts: 4321
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:45 pm
- Location: Broomfield, CO
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Jill Stein decided that a great place to give interviews tonight would be at Hofstra University. She was escorted off campus by security.
- Max Peck
- Posts: 13759
- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
- Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
My personal favourite from Johnson's debate commentary.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
- Archinerd
- Posts: 6863
- Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:18 am
- Location: Shikaakwa
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Not that I was even considering voting for him, but the inability of a candidate to name any foreign leader is kind of a deal breaker for me.
nytimes
nytimes
I guess this has already been posted in the other Libertarian thread.During a town hall-style interview on MSNBC on Wednesday night, Mr. Johnson, the Libertarian candidate for president, was asked by the host Chris Matthews to name his favorite foreign leader.
Mr. Johnson, appearing flustered, was at a loss to come up with a name.
He grasped at a former president of Mexico, Vicente Fox, who has been critical of Donald J. Trump, but was unable to remember his name without help — or the name of any sitting leader of a foreign country.
- gilraen
- Posts: 4321
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:45 pm
- Location: Broomfield, CO
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Yeah, I watched that entire town hall. Bill Weld sounded a lot more competent throughout; several of Johnson's answers had to be prompted - it was like having to "phone a friend".
- hepcat
- Posts: 51501
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
- Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
He's getting savaged for this. But to be fair, he shouldn't be running for president if he's either that clueless or that easily flustered.
He won. Period.
-
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:10 am
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Agreed, I wasn't considering voting for him either, but the deal breaker for me with him was the "What is Aleppo" incident, and the followup video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roSC7iQ17nk) where he acknowledged that he simply did not know the name vs. it just being a confused moment. I would really like any candidate to know more about the world than little-old-me who knew the name Aleppo from just casual news following over the past year+.
-something witty-
-
- Posts: 24795
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Watched it - that was very painful. Not that third parties have a shot in this system but they certainly don't stand a chance when they put up candidates like this. He couldn't answer a *simple* question. Aleppo was a bit overblown but this one is plain awful.
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41338
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
- LordMortis
- Posts: 70220
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Not voting for him but I think both this news cycle is off base and the Clinton support group echo chamber won't have the desired subtext of switching votes to Clinton. He was originally asked to name a foreign leader he admired, not any foreign leader as the times states.
OtOH, I do think the increased media coverage has the potential to have him expose his policy and performance flaws himself and that's the only way I see mass defections. Trying to embarrass him will only entrench his support. See examples of Clinton of and Trump as proof of concept.
OtOH, I do think the increased media coverage has the potential to have him expose his policy and performance flaws himself and that's the only way I see mass defections. Trying to embarrass him will only entrench his support. See examples of Clinton of and Trump as proof of concept.
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41338
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
He should be able to name a foreign leader he admires (or at least one that's non-objectionable) - that's still a very low bar.LordMortis wrote:Not voting for him but I think both this news cycle is off base and the Clinton support group echo chamber won't have the desired subtext of switching votes to Clinton. He was originally asked to name a foreign leader he admired, not any foreign leader as the times states.
OtOH, I do think the increased media coverage has the potential to have him expose his policy and performance flaws himself and that's the only way I see mass defections. Trying to embarrass him will only entrench his support. See examples of Clinton of and Trump as proof of concept.
Black Lives Matter.
- GreenGoo
- Posts: 42343
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
The nytimes quote above claims that after he was unable to identify a favourite leader, he was unable to identify any leader at all. I would hope the second part would be a simple brain freeze moment, but it doesn't speak well for his ability to think on his feet.LordMortis wrote:Not voting for him but I think both this news cycle is off base and the Clinton support group echo chamber won't have the desired subtext of switching votes to Clinton. He was originally asked to name a foreign leader he admired, not any foreign leader as the times states.
.
- El Guapo
- Posts: 41338
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
- Location: Boston
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
And look, you only really lose that question if you can't name anybody, or if you name somebody like Kim Jong-Un. Just name someone in a democratic country, and then say something bland about them ("good leader, can reach across the aisle", etc.). It's not that hard.GreenGoo wrote:The nytimes quote above claims that after he was unable to identify a favourite leader, he was unable to identify any leader at all. I would hope the second part would be a simple brain freeze moment, but it doesn't speak well for his ability to think on his feet.LordMortis wrote:Not voting for him but I think both this news cycle is off base and the Clinton support group echo chamber won't have the desired subtext of switching votes to Clinton. He was originally asked to name a foreign leader he admired, not any foreign leader as the times states.
.
As opposed to the Aleppo thing, which seemed unobjectionable in context.
Black Lives Matter.
- Isgrimnur
- Posts: 82308
- Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
- Location: Chookity pok
- Contact:
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
At least he didn't say, "All of them."
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- LordMortis
- Posts: 70220
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
No disagreement there.GreenGoo wrote: I would hope the second part would be a simple brain freeze moment, but it doesn't speak well for his ability to think on his feet.
The generalization I keep seeing that is somehow lost is that Clinton support is both trying to convince 3rd party voters to move off their existing support to Clinton and frame the conversation in such a way that their support don't come off as honest, which is the exact thing that is driving otherwise liberal voters away from her. Trust. Honesty. The Clinton fanbase get frustrated and they scream louder and frame even more conversations as evidence and point and say in their superior antagonistic way: Bernie Bro. Stupid. Misogynist. Illogical. Why will you let Hitler be elected? Uninformed. Ignorant of history. Have been brainwashed by republican lies. And after all of these insults they go on with more attempts at sophistry and seem to really believe this is good for liberalism, for democrats, and for advancing support for Clinton. The conversation has largely ended and they're failing to see much less why it has largely ended.
- pr0ner
- Posts: 17429
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:00 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia, VA
- Contact:
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
El Guapo wrote:He should be able to name a foreign leader he admires (or at least one that's non-objectionable) - that's still a very low bar.LordMortis wrote:Not voting for him but I think both this news cycle is off base and the Clinton support group echo chamber won't have the desired subtext of switching votes to Clinton. He was originally asked to name a foreign leader he admired, not any foreign leader as the times states.
OtOH, I do think the increased media coverage has the potential to have him expose his policy and performance flaws himself and that's the only way I see mass defections. Trying to embarrass him will only entrench his support. See examples of Clinton of and Trump as proof of concept.
Hodor.
- Captain Caveman
- Posts: 11687
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:57 am
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Nice save. But then he had to go a ruin it by ending his tweet with a preposition and risk losing the grammar nerd vote.
- pr0ner
- Posts: 17429
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:00 pm
- Location: Northern Virginia, VA
- Contact:
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
Captain Caveman wrote:Nice save. But then he had to go a ruin it by ending his tweet with a preposition and risk losing the grammar nerd vote.
Hodor.
- GreenGoo
- Posts: 42343
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
- Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
That one haunts me constantly. It's not something I aspire to.Captain Caveman wrote:Nice save. But then he had to go a ruin it by ending his tweet with a preposition and risk losing the grammar nerd vote.
- coopasonic
- Posts: 20992
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:43 pm
- Location: Dallas-ish
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
pr0ner wrote:Captain Caveman wrote:Nice save. But then he had to go a ruin it by ending his tweet with a preposition and risk losing the grammar nerd vote.
That is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I shall not put.
-Coop
Black Lives Matter
Black Lives Matter
- Max Peck
- Posts: 13759
- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
- Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
It looks like Gary's gaining ground.
Lemme guess, Illinois is a dark blue state?This year neither major party presents a good option. So the Chicago Tribune today endorses Libertarian Gary Johnson for president of the United States. Every American who casts a vote for him is standing for principles — and can be proud of that vote. Yes, proud of a candidate in 2016.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
- Defiant
- Posts: 21045
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:09 pm
- Location: Tongue in cheek
Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?
He may be gaining ground, but not in the polls, the average of which has him at 7.3%, down a couple of points from his high of 9.2% a couple of weeks ago. And those were all taken before his recent "Aleppo moment".
Though it's not really surprising that some of the third party voters would go back to where they usually vote, as that usually happens during third party runs.
But bravo on him getting more newspaper endorsements than a major party nominee.
Though it's not really surprising that some of the third party voters would go back to where they usually vote, as that usually happens during third party runs.
But bravo on him getting more newspaper endorsements than a major party nominee.