Where is the Libertarian Party?

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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Max Peck »

And, hopefully, Vault-Tec.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

Kraken wrote:tl;dr version: The free market will take care of everything when government gets out of the way.
With an emphasis on the "dr". He's not an anarchist and a lot of libertarians would say he's not even a libertarian.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Kraken »

Moliere wrote:
Kraken wrote:tl;dr version: The free market will take care of everything when government gets out of the way.
With an emphasis on the "dr". He's not an anarchist and a lot of libertarians would say he's not even a libertarian.
1. Innovation

Innovation works best when government doesn’t pick winners and losers. Manufacturers and consumers best understand the necessary applications required,

2. Research

With regard to basic science, private companies are often willing to invest funds, and that should be encouraged - not discouraged. And when the government gets involved, the scientific discourse can be squelched.

3. Climate change

We believe that a motivated and informed market will demand efficiency and reduced greenhouse gases,

4. Biodiversity

Private land ownership can improve good stewardship of the land.

5. The Internet

The best way to improve cybersecurity is to educate the most likely security hole in any technology - the people sitting at the keyboards.

6. Mental health

we favor a block grant approach to federal funding for health care, including mental health treatment. Let the states innovate,

7. Energy

We believe that no source of energy is categorically wrong or right, but some sources of energy may be procured or used incorrectly or used in the wrong applications, too often as a consequence of government interference and manipulation.
See a pattern here or shall I go through the rest of the list? (At least #6 just devolves responsibility down one level rather than invoking marketplace magic.)
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Holman »

2. Research

With regard to basic science, private companies are often willing to invest funds, and that should be encouraged - not discouraged. And when the government gets involved, the scientific discourse can be squelched.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by pr0ner »

He has a point with #2. Just look at funding for stem cell research.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by GreenGoo »

pr0ner wrote:He has a point with #2. Just look at funding for stem cell research.
While that is a good example, I think the amount of tax dollars going into research, either through government agencies or grants to private institutions far, far outweighs the occasional time that government gets in the way.

I'd also suggest that stem cell research is hindered in the US not so much by government as it is by religious considerations using government to stop it. If the American people want stem cell research they should make their voices heard.

Mostly, he's wrong on #2. Rarely, he's right.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Pyperkub »

pr0ner wrote:He has a point with #2. Just look at funding for stem cell research.
Or look at funding for the internet ;)
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Kraken »

He has good points scattered throughout. Where he falls down is fitting every issue into his ideological template. Sometimes we need less regulation, sometimes we need more, and every now and then we get it just about right.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

Kraken wrote:He has good points scattered throughout. Where he falls down is fitting every issue into his ideological template. Sometimes we need less regulation, sometimes we need more, and every now and then we get it just about right.
But that's what it means to be libertarian - less government and less regulation pretty much across the board. Government sticks more or less to the core minimum - to provide public order, maintain infrastructure, etc., but not much else.

You're essentially complaining that he's being a libertarian.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

Image

The chart that puts fear in the heart of Trump and Clinton. Those 3rd party candidates just won't fade away.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

On the one hand, they haven't faded. On the other, they also haven't gotten anywhere near the polling numbers that Perot / Anderson had.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by ImLawBoy »

El Guapo wrote:On the one hand, they haven't faded. On the other, they also haven't gotten anywhere near the polling numbers that Perot / Anderson had.
Johnson is above Perot's 1996 run at this point.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Kraken »

El Guapo wrote:
Kraken wrote:He has good points scattered throughout. Where he falls down is fitting every issue into his ideological template. Sometimes we need less regulation, sometimes we need more, and every now and then we get it just about right.
But that's what it means to be libertarian - less government and less regulation pretty much across the board. Government sticks more or less to the core minimum - to provide public order, maintain infrastructure, etc., but not much else.

You're essentially complaining that he's being a libertarian.
More that he's letting his ideology box him into untenable positions.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

Kraken wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Kraken wrote:He has good points scattered throughout. Where he falls down is fitting every issue into his ideological template. Sometimes we need less regulation, sometimes we need more, and every now and then we get it just about right.
But that's what it means to be libertarian - less government and less regulation pretty much across the board. Government sticks more or less to the core minimum - to provide public order, maintain infrastructure, etc., but not much else.

You're essentially complaining that he's being a libertarian.
More that he's letting his ideology box him into untenable positions.
My point is that that's what it means to be libertarian. It means you take a radical pro-market anti-regulation stance essentially across the board, even where that is politically (or, for most people, policy-wise) untenable.

It's like saying Lenin makes a lot of sense, but he really went off track fitting everything into an ideological framework.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

ImLawBoy wrote:
El Guapo wrote:On the one hand, they haven't faded. On the other, they also haven't gotten anywhere near the polling numbers that Perot / Anderson had.
Johnson is above Perot's 1996 run at this point.
Right, but I mean that they haven't gotten near their heights / overall viability. Perot and Anderson spent a long time above 10% (which Johnson hasn't cracked), with Anderson above 20% and Perot approaching 40% at his height. Point is that they haven't faded, but it's not like they're historically strong either.

And by "they" I really just mean Johnson, since Stein is pretty much just tracking Nader's 2000 run, and isn't even flirting with actual viability.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Pyperkub »

Perot also managed to get into the debates.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

Pyperkub wrote:Perot also managed to get into the debates.
That's because he was brought in to rig the election for Bill by pulling voters away from Bush Sr. :wink:
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by noxiousdog »

Kraken wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Kraken wrote:He has good points scattered throughout. Where he falls down is fitting every issue into his ideological template. Sometimes we need less regulation, sometimes we need more, and every now and then we get it just about right.
But that's what it means to be libertarian - less government and less regulation pretty much across the board. Government sticks more or less to the core minimum - to provide public order, maintain infrastructure, etc., but not much else.

You're essentially complaining that he's being a libertarian.
More that he's letting his ideology box him into untenable positions.
I also think it's more of a starting philosophy stance. If you start with "government should not fund X" then when someone comes with a convincing argument you can still fund X. Alternatively, if you start with "Government should fund X" then it takes a really convincing argument to NOT fund X and a lot of poor funding decisions are made.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Smutly »

Moliere wrote:Image

The chart that puts fear in the heart of Trump and Clinton. Those 3rd party candidates just won't fade away.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by hepcat »

He's the best candidate the Koch brothers ever bought.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

hepcat wrote:He's the best candidate the Koch brothers ever bought.
:roll:
Because Clinton doesn't have any big donors funding her campaign?
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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I love that that's a negative for one, but not for another. :roll:

Oh, right...I forgot. Hillary Goddamn Clinton.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Defiant »

To be fair, Johnson supports Citizen's United and removing limits on campaign donations, which Clinton doesn't. But big donors are pretty much required under the current system (to win, anyway).
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Isgrimnur »

I'm sure Johnson's donors will make sure we have all the clean air and water that we can afford.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by em2nought »

Moliere wrote:
Pyperkub wrote:Perot also managed to get into the debates.
That's because he was brought in to rig the election for Bill by pulling voters away from Bush Sr. :wink:
...and it worked. Because Bill was more appealing than any other democrat that's run since. I could vote for Perot without feeling like I was handing the gov't over to the devil. :wink: Maybe just the naughty. :ninja:
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

hepcat wrote:I love that that's a negative for one, but not for another. :roll:

Oh, right...I forgot. Hillary Goddamn Clinton.
So you're intentionally being ironic? Got it.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by hepcat »

I do not think that word means that you think it means.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

hepcat wrote:I do not think that word means that what you think it means.
Let's see. You support Hillary. Hillary gets big donations from multi-millionaires and billionaires. You come into this thread trashing Johnson because he get's a donation from the Koch brothers. Me thinks that's irony.

Of course, I can't find any record of the Koch brothers actually "buying" Johnson. So it looks like you're pulling a Rip-like drive-by in this thread to make your weekly anti-libertarian post.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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Gary Johnson's petition to be allowed to debate reached its goal of 1,000,000 signatures. Currently at 1,017,923...!
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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The Koch brothers founded and funded the Libertarian movement decades ago. It's a matter of being funded by a few wealthy people or many.

But the Libertarian candidate shouldn't be on stage for the Presidential debates for one simple reason -- all he's going to say is that the President and the government shouldn't be doing anything. The Republicans and Democrats disagree on many things -- but they agree that government should do SOMETHING -- whether it's building a wall or address economic inequality.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

Zarathud wrote:But the Libertarian candidate shouldn't be on stage for the Presidential debates for one simple reason -- all he's going to say is that the President and the government shouldn't be doing anything.
Again, he's not an anarchist. He's a former governor of New Mexico. Have you heard about the food riots of N.M. or the streets being torn up? No? Because it didn't happen.

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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by hepcat »

Moliere wrote:. So it looks like you're pulling a Rip-like drive-by in this thread to make your weekly anti-libertarian post.
Sorry, I wasn't aware I was forbidden from thinking a candidate isn't as pure as the driven snow. I know you never post anything negative about someone you don't support so I should follow your Christ like example.

<that was sarcasm...something that's often mistaken for irony>
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Unagi »

Honestly, I thought Irony and Sarcasm were about the same thing, the main difference being attitude.

Sarcasm is primarily used as a weapon, Irony is the softer wittier twin.

I think your original statement was unintentional Irony (TBH), cause you made an attack that could also be made (more or less) at Hillary
~~~He's the best candidate the Koch brothers ever bought.

Moliere's response was pure sarcasm.
~~~Because Clinton doesn't have any big donors funding her campaign?

Hepcat, technically your response to that:
~~~I love that that's a negative for one, but not for another
seemed to miss Moliere's original complaint here - cause you started by pointing out a negative they both shared. So, he then remarked you must be speaking ironically.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by hepcat »

Unagi wrote:
I think your original statement was unintentional Irony (TBH), cause you made an attack that could also be made (more or less) at Hillary
When have I ever said she was free from the effects of big donors? I've made it quite clear over numerous posts that I don't like Hillary, but I fear the alternatives even more.

I could see your point if I did like Hillary and had even once said she was free from the effects of big donors. But I haven't, so I don't.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Unagi »

hepcat wrote:
Unagi wrote:
I think your original statement was unintentional Irony (TBH), cause you made an attack that could also be made (more or less) at Hillary
When have I ever said she was free from the effects of big donors? I've made it quite clear over numerous posts that I don't like Hillary, but I fear the alternatives even more.

I could see your point if I did like Hillary and had even once said she was free from the effects of big donors. But I haven't, so I don't.
Fair enough... but from Moliere's point of view, you and I are strong supporters of Hillary.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by hepcat »

Yes, I know. He's tried to portray me as such in the past. I responded to him then explaining my position, but he forgets about it almost immediately. :wink:
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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Zarathud wrote: But the Libertarian candidate shouldn't be on stage for the Presidential debates for one simple reason -- all he's going to say is that the President and the government shouldn't be doing anything. The Republicans and Democrats disagree on many things -- but they agree that government should do SOMETHING -- whether it's building a wall or address economic inequality.
As Moliere said, Libertarians aren't anarchists. They recognize the need for government to do things.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

pr0ner wrote:
Zarathud wrote: But the Libertarian candidate shouldn't be on stage for the Presidential debates for one simple reason -- all he's going to say is that the President and the government shouldn't be doing anything. The Republicans and Democrats disagree on many things -- but they agree that government should do SOMETHING -- whether it's building a wall or address economic inequality.
As Moliere said, Libertarians aren't anarchists. They recognize the need for government to do things.
Right, but pretty minimal things - law and order, infrastructure, etc. - especially compared to what voters expect the government to do these days.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Isgrimnur »

They just have a really narrow view on what those things are.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by ImLawBoy »

But to argue that they don't deserve a chance at the debate because of those views (which is what Zarathud did) is pretty ridiculous. You can make solid arguments that they shouldn't be at the debate due to polling or other reasons, but to do so because of the substance of their ideas is not very democratic or American, IMO.
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