Where is the Libertarian Party?

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Isgrimnur
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Agreed.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by pr0ner »

El Guapo wrote:Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
Considering the main two US parties set the rules, it's no wonder they're the only two with candidates on stage tonight. :lol:
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Unagi »

And he does want to do something with the current government - in that doing less would take some dismantling....

However, Anarchists do NOT deserve any time on the stage.... but he's no anarchist.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Unagi »

Where is the Anarchy Party?
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

pr0ner wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
Considering the main two US parties set the rules, it's no wonder they're the only two with candidates on stage tonight. :lol:
Right, but they set the rules in advance, and third party candidates have on occasion met those standards.

That said, I am all for revising U.S. electoral rules and procedures to make third parties viable (especially instant run-off voting) and for opening up the system beyond two parties. I think that should be a focus of any third party campaign, as that's almost an essential predicate for a third party actually succeeding.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Unagi wrote:Where is the Anarchy Party?
Nobody showed up for the first meeting.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Zarathud »

The libertarians deserve nothing. They have to earn it with popular support or a compelling idea that drives the national narrative. Ross Perot met both of those standards -- he framed the question about the national debt and the public responded -- until he dropped out. Hell, I even voted for him anyway!

But I have not called the libertarians anarchists. Just questioned what substance they bring and whether that merits inclusion. I don't care if that doesn't fit your ideal of America or democracy. This debate will already be too much about personality and not enough about substance for my taste -- and watering it down with one (or two if you are consistent and add the Greens) extra people on the stage would make it worse.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by pr0ner »

I'm pretty sure adding Gary Johnson to the stage would make it MORE about substance and less about personality, especially with the candidates that are already going to be on stage.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by GreenGoo »

pr0ner wrote:I'm pretty sure adding Gary Johnson to the stage would make it MORE about substance and less about personality, especially with the candidates that are already going to be on stage.
Certainly this election cycle.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by ImLawBoy »

Zarathud wrote:The libertarians deserve nothing. They have to earn it with popular support or a compelling idea that drives the national narrative. Ross Perot met both of those standards -- he framed the question about the national debt and the public responded -- until he dropped out. Hell, I even voted for him anyway!

But I have not called the libertarians anarchists. Just questioned what substance they bring and whether that merits inclusion. I don't care if that doesn't fit your ideal of America or democracy. This debate will already be too much about personality and not enough about substance for my taste -- and watering it down with one (or two if you are consistent and add the Greens) extra people on the stage would make it worse.
Nothing that we say here is going to put Johnson into the debates, so this is all really a theoretical discussion, and whether or not having additional ideas at the debate would cause problems tonight is not really relevant.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by hepcat »

Isgrimnur wrote:
Unagi wrote:Where is the Anarchy Party?
Nobody showed up for the first meeting.
They did...but they each showed up to meetings THEY scheduled at locations THEY wanted.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by pr0ner »

El Guapo wrote:
pr0ner wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
Considering the main two US parties set the rules, it's no wonder they're the only two with candidates on stage tonight. :lol:
Right, but they set the rules in advance, and third party candidates have on occasion met those standards.

That said, I am all for revising U.S. electoral rules and procedures to make third parties viable (especially instant run-off voting) and for opening up the system beyond two parties. I think that should be a focus of any third party campaign, as that's almost an essential predicate for a third party actually succeeding.
Actually, there's a decent chance Johnson would be on stage tonight if one used the CPD's rules from 1992, when Perot was on stage with Clinton and Bush.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

pr0ner wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
pr0ner wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
Considering the main two US parties set the rules, it's no wonder they're the only two with candidates on stage tonight. :lol:
Right, but they set the rules in advance, and third party candidates have on occasion met those standards.

That said, I am all for revising U.S. electoral rules and procedures to make third parties viable (especially instant run-off voting) and for opening up the system beyond two parties. I think that should be a focus of any third party campaign, as that's almost an essential predicate for a third party actually succeeding.
Actually, there's a decent chance Johnson would be on stage tonight if one used the CPD's rules from 1992, when Perot was on stage with Clinton and Bush.
What were those rules, and how were they different?

Regardless, for this election I really don't give a shit about anything beyond keeping American Hitler from destroying the republic, so I am all for anything that advances that.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Moliere »

"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by pr0ner »

El Guapo wrote:
pr0ner wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
pr0ner wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Oh, definitely. Yeah the reason to not include them is because (as I understand it) they set a polling requirement at the beginning which the third party candidates didn't meet. The debate commission shouldn't be excluding candidates based on their views of their political beliefs.
Considering the main two US parties set the rules, it's no wonder they're the only two with candidates on stage tonight. :lol:
Right, but they set the rules in advance, and third party candidates have on occasion met those standards.

That said, I am all for revising U.S. electoral rules and procedures to make third parties viable (especially instant run-off voting) and for opening up the system beyond two parties. I think that should be a focus of any third party campaign, as that's almost an essential predicate for a third party actually succeeding.
Actually, there's a decent chance Johnson would be on stage tonight if one used the CPD's rules from 1992, when Perot was on stage with Clinton and Bush.
What were those rules, and how were they different?

Regardless, for this election I really don't give a shit about anything beyond keeping American Hitler from destroying the republic, so I am all for anything that advances that.
From the Debate Commission website:
While the panel's recommended candidate selection criteria themselves were quite detailed, they included a review of three types of factors: (1) evidence of national organization, (2) signs of national newsworthiness and competitiveness, and (3) indicators of national public enthusiasm or concern, to determine whether a candidate had a realistic chance of election. The criteria did not consider any one piece of evidence to be determinative. Rather, a variety of evidence was to be reviewed in considering whether a particular candidate had a realistic chance of election.
There was no hard set 15% rule then.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

This election aside, I think I would prefer objective debate admission criterion to subjective ones, as a general matter.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by GreenGoo »

El Guapo wrote: What were those rules, and how were they different?

Regardless, for this election I really don't give a shit about anything beyond keeping American Hitler from destroying the republic, so I am all for anything that advances that.
I'm just thinking outloud here, but what if his secret service agents never reimbursed Drumpf for their flights?

I'm just asking questions.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Isgrimnur »

I'm sure the Congressional hearings would last until 2030.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by gilraen »

Jill Stein decided that a great place to give interviews tonight would be at Hofstra University. She was escorted off campus by security.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Max Peck »

My personal favourite from Johnson's debate commentary.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Archinerd »

Not that I was even considering voting for him, but the inability of a candidate to name any foreign leader is kind of a deal breaker for me.

nytimes
During a town hall-style interview on MSNBC on Wednesday night, Mr. Johnson, the Libertarian candidate for president, was asked by the host Chris Matthews to name his favorite foreign leader.

Mr. Johnson, appearing flustered, was at a loss to come up with a name.

He grasped at a former president of Mexico, Vicente Fox, who has been critical of Donald J. Trump, but was unable to remember his name without help — or the name of any sitting leader of a foreign country.
:? I guess this has already been posted in the other Libertarian thread.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by gilraen »

Yeah, I watched that entire town hall. Bill Weld sounded a lot more competent throughout; several of Johnson's answers had to be prompted - it was like having to "phone a friend".
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by hepcat »

He's getting savaged for this. But to be fair, he shouldn't be running for president if he's either that clueless or that easily flustered.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by infinitelurker »

Agreed, I wasn't considering voting for him either, but the deal breaker for me with him was the "What is Aleppo" incident, and the followup video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roSC7iQ17nk) where he acknowledged that he simply did not know the name vs. it just being a confused moment. I would really like any candidate to know more about the world than little-old-me who knew the name Aleppo from just casual news following over the past year+.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by malchior »

Watched it - that was very painful. Not that third parties have a shot in this system but they certainly don't stand a chance when they put up candidates like this. He couldn't answer a *simple* question. Aleppo was a bit overblown but this one is plain awful.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by LordMortis »

Not voting for him but I think both this news cycle is off base and the Clinton support group echo chamber won't have the desired subtext of switching votes to Clinton. He was originally asked to name a foreign leader he admired, not any foreign leader as the times states.

OtOH, I do think the increased media coverage has the potential to have him expose his policy and performance flaws himself and that's the only way I see mass defections. Trying to embarrass him will only entrench his support. See examples of Clinton of and Trump as proof of concept.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

LordMortis wrote:Not voting for him but I think both this news cycle is off base and the Clinton support group echo chamber won't have the desired subtext of switching votes to Clinton. He was originally asked to name a foreign leader he admired, not any foreign leader as the times states.

OtOH, I do think the increased media coverage has the potential to have him expose his policy and performance flaws himself and that's the only way I see mass defections. Trying to embarrass him will only entrench his support. See examples of Clinton of and Trump as proof of concept.
He should be able to name a foreign leader he admires (or at least one that's non-objectionable) - that's still a very low bar.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by GreenGoo »

LordMortis wrote:Not voting for him but I think both this news cycle is off base and the Clinton support group echo chamber won't have the desired subtext of switching votes to Clinton. He was originally asked to name a foreign leader he admired, not any foreign leader as the times states.
.
The nytimes quote above claims that after he was unable to identify a favourite leader, he was unable to identify any leader at all. I would hope the second part would be a simple brain freeze moment, but it doesn't speak well for his ability to think on his feet.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by El Guapo »

GreenGoo wrote:
LordMortis wrote:Not voting for him but I think both this news cycle is off base and the Clinton support group echo chamber won't have the desired subtext of switching votes to Clinton. He was originally asked to name a foreign leader he admired, not any foreign leader as the times states.
.
The nytimes quote above claims that after he was unable to identify a favourite leader, he was unable to identify any leader at all. I would hope the second part would be a simple brain freeze moment, but it doesn't speak well for his ability to think on his feet.
And look, you only really lose that question if you can't name anybody, or if you name somebody like Kim Jong-Un. Just name someone in a democratic country, and then say something bland about them ("good leader, can reach across the aisle", etc.). It's not that hard.

As opposed to the Aleppo thing, which seemed unobjectionable in context.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Isgrimnur »

At least he didn't say, "All of them."
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by LordMortis »

GreenGoo wrote: I would hope the second part would be a simple brain freeze moment, but it doesn't speak well for his ability to think on his feet.
No disagreement there.

The generalization I keep seeing that is somehow lost is that Clinton support is both trying to convince 3rd party voters to move off their existing support to Clinton and frame the conversation in such a way that their support don't come off as honest, which is the exact thing that is driving otherwise liberal voters away from her. Trust. Honesty. The Clinton fanbase get frustrated and they scream louder and frame even more conversations as evidence and point and say in their superior antagonistic way: Bernie Bro. Stupid. Misogynist. Illogical. Why will you let Hitler be elected? Uninformed. Ignorant of history. Have been brainwashed by republican lies. And after all of these insults they go on with more attempts at sophistry and seem to really believe this is good for liberalism, for democrats, and for advancing support for Clinton. The conversation has largely ended and they're failing to see much less why it has largely ended.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by pr0ner »

El Guapo wrote:
LordMortis wrote:Not voting for him but I think both this news cycle is off base and the Clinton support group echo chamber won't have the desired subtext of switching votes to Clinton. He was originally asked to name a foreign leader he admired, not any foreign leader as the times states.

OtOH, I do think the increased media coverage has the potential to have him expose his policy and performance flaws himself and that's the only way I see mass defections. Trying to embarrass him will only entrench his support. See examples of Clinton of and Trump as proof of concept.
He should be able to name a foreign leader he admires (or at least one that's non-objectionable) - that's still a very low bar.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Captain Caveman »

Nice save. But then he had to go a ruin it by ending his tweet with a preposition and risk losing the grammar nerd vote.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by pr0ner »

Captain Caveman wrote:Nice save. But then he had to go a ruin it by ending his tweet with a preposition and risk losing the grammar nerd vote.
:lol:
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by GreenGoo »

Captain Caveman wrote:Nice save. But then he had to go a ruin it by ending his tweet with a preposition and risk losing the grammar nerd vote.
That one haunts me constantly. It's not something I aspire to.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by coopasonic »

pr0ner wrote:
Captain Caveman wrote:Nice save. But then he had to go a ruin it by ending his tweet with a preposition and risk losing the grammar nerd vote.
:lol:
That is the type of arrant pedantry up with which I shall not put.
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Max Peck »

It looks like Gary's gaining ground.
This year neither major party presents a good option. So the Chicago Tribune today endorses Libertarian Gary Johnson for president of the United States. Every American who casts a vote for him is standing for principles — and can be proud of that vote. Yes, proud of a candidate in 2016.
Lemme guess, Illinois is a dark blue state?
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Re: Where is the Libertarian Party?

Post by Defiant »

He may be gaining ground, but not in the polls, the average of which has him at 7.3%, down a couple of points from his high of 9.2% a couple of weeks ago. And those were all taken before his recent "Aleppo moment".

Though it's not really surprising that some of the third party voters would go back to where they usually vote, as that usually happens during third party runs.

But bravo on him getting more newspaper endorsements than a major party nominee.
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