Go ahead, throw your vote away

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Kraken
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Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Kraken »

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If you live in an uncontested state, why are you voting for Kodos or Kang? I've never understood the "back a winner" bandwagon point of view. (To those in the dozen-or-so tossup states: Thank you for your service.)

Oh look, Rolling Stone actually gave Jill Stein some ink.
"It's a fallacy that Hillary Clinton is the lesser evil here. Another Clinton in the White House is just going to fan the flames of the right-wing revolt," she says.

"The lesser evil simply guarantees that the greater evil will be elected in the next election."
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by tgb »

Back in '72 when I was in college I had several acquaintances that were either SDS or Panthers. They were urging people to vote for Nixon on the theory that another term would be so outrageous that it would certainly ignite the inevitable revolution.

I wonder how that turned out?
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Holman »

Kraken wrote:
"It's a fallacy that Hillary Clinton is the lesser evil here. Another Clinton in the White House is just going to fan the flames of the right-wing revolt," she says.

"The lesser evil simply guarantees that the greater evil will be elected in the next election."
It's hard to know where to begin with Jill Stein here. The idea is that everyone but Jill Stein is as bad as Trump? The idea that the right would back down and roll over for President Jill Stein?

The mind boggles, but then I live in a swing state, and also in the real world.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Unagi »

She seems to be claiming the role of 'Greatest Evil'
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by YellowKing »

By that logic, Obama's re-election should have fanned the flames of the right-wing revolt. That never materialized. Trump (realistically) is even more of a moderate than McCain. I don't think at this point the Republicans can get their act together enough to put up a revolt.

I see some buried logic in her argument - Trump certainly doesn't hold the extreme right-wing policy viewpoints that keep Rolling Stone journalists awake at night. But I'm not sure throwing four years of the country away on his "leadership" is worth the off-chance that the Republicans may put up another Ted Cruz in 2020.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by tgb »

At least Hillary will have (begrudging) support from the Democrats in the House and Senate. Trump will go in with both parties hating him and it will only go downhill from there.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by GreenGoo »

Kraken wrote:
Oh look, Rolling Stone actually gave Jill Stein some ink.
"It's a fallacy that Hillary Clinton is the lesser evil here. Another Clinton in the White House is just going to fan the flames of the right-wing revolt," she says.

"The lesser evil simply guarantees that the greater evil will be elected in the next election."
So, why not bring the apocalypse early and vote for Trump now instead of later? What's her point here?

Hillary is the lesser evil as compared to Trump. No one calls Hillary the lesser evil between her and Sanders.

And the right wing revolt is revolting against their own establishment, not because they are pissed at the democrats (well, not more than usual anyway). Her points (quoted here anyway) are gibberish.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant »

If you feel that you need to support a third party, go for it - that's democracy. But the implication that both parties are the same (as the Kang and Kodos sign implies) is just flat out wrong - there are major substantial differences between them, and choosing the Republicans will risk undoing some of the progress that has been made. I assume you agree with that given your "Thank you for your service".

And yeah, Jill Stein's logic is truly bizarre.
Unagi wrote:She seems to be claiming the role of 'Greatest Evil'
:clap:
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant »

Figured this would fit in this thread:
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by GreenGoo »

I don't think that's an unusual sentiment. Hell, I would be glued to everything Trump says and does if he becomes president. And part of me would enjoy the schadenfreude, but that doesn't mean I would be stupid enough to intentionally call down the thunder just to see who gets smote by Mjölnir.

Sure, a few people will be willing to vote for Trump out of spite, or out of curiosity, I'm just not sure it's going to be a large percent. I think the people willing to burn down the system are already behind Trump.

But I'm using rationality here, and clearly this is an example of psychohistory in the making.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by tgb »

GreenGoo wrote:I don't think that's an unusual sentiment. Hell, I would be glued to everything Trump says and does if he becomes president. And part of me would enjoy the schadenfreude, but that doesn't mean I would be stupid enough to intentionally call down the thunder just to see who gets smote by Mjölnir.
Easy for you to say, living up there all safe and snug in America Lite. Just you wait until he casts Justin Bieber and Celine Dion back and builds a second wall.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

GreenGoo wrote:I don't think that's an unusual sentiment. Hell, I would be glued to everything Trump says and does if he becomes president. And part of me would enjoy the schadenfreude, but that doesn't mean I would be stupid enough to intentionally call down the thunder just to see who gets smote by Mjölnir.

Sure, a few people will be willing to vote for Trump out of spite, or out of curiosity, I'm just not sure it's going to be a large percent. I think the people willing to burn down the system are already behind Trump.

But I'm using rationality here, and clearly this is an example of psychohistory in the making.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Max Peck »

tgb wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:I don't think that's an unusual sentiment. Hell, I would be glued to everything Trump says and does if he becomes president. And part of me would enjoy the schadenfreude, but that doesn't mean I would be stupid enough to intentionally call down the thunder just to see who gets smote by Mjölnir.
Easy for you to say, living up there all safe and snug in America Lite. Just you wait until he casts Justin Bieber and Celine Dion back and builds a second wall.

:horse:
I dunno, I'm a little concerned that Trump would conflate manifest destiny with eminent domain (for which he has a burning lurve).

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by YellowKing »

He's already calling on us to bomb the hell out of ISIS in Libya, which shows he understands the subtlety of our current anti-terrorism strategy.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Kraken »

Defiant wrote: But the implication that both parties are the same (as the Kang and Kodos sign implies) is just flat out wrong - there are major substantial differences between them,
Sure, but it's still a lose/lose proposition overall. Clinton = 4-8 more years of managing decline more-or-less gracefully for those in the upper income brackets; Trump = fascist dictatorship because why the hell not at this point?

Like virtually everyone else here, Wife and I are in the top 5-10% of incomes (this site puts us in the 96th percentile) and we have done OK under Obama, so more graceful decline doesn't look all that bad.
Defiant wrote: I assume you agree with that given your "Thank you for your service".
Yup: If the outcome in your state is in any doubt, then you have a duty to vote responsibly. This thread is meant for the majority of us whose votes don't matter. Go ahead, cast a protest/conscience vote.

Stein is a perennial protest candidate in MA. I've voted for her as both governor and senator. Haven't decided yet between Greens, Libertarians, or a write-in for president this year.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Holman »

Kraken wrote:
Defiant wrote: But the implication that both parties are the same (as the Kang and Kodos sign implies) is just flat out wrong - there are major substantial differences between them,
Sure, but it's still a lose/lose proposition overall. Clinton = 4-8 more years of managing decline more-or-less gracefully for those in the upper income brackets; Trump = fascist dictatorship because why the hell not at this point?
I'm going to boldly suggest that those options are not identical.

I'm also not so cynical as to believe decline is inevitable. We've been in much worse shape before, and more than once. Politicians can't do everything, but they have a lot to do with determining the shape of the era that comes afterwards.
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Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Zarathud »

When the nation is in free fall, no one is going to care about the needs of the poor and vulnerable. A managed decline is the best chance they have.

While electoral votes may be decided, Trump needs to be defeated so soundly that his claim of being a "winner" and divisive strategy are both thoroughly discredited. Like Bernie, Trump will pretend he was winning all along and thus victimized by losing. Every extra vote rejecting Trump helps discourage the next demagogue.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Kraken »

Zarathud wrote: Every extra vote rejecting Trump helps discourage the next demagogue.
And every extra vote for the lesser evil emboldens the next evil. (The key word being "extra"; again, those in contested states are duty-bound to vote against the greater evil).
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant »

Samantha Bee talks to Gary Johnson
Samantha Bee wrote:Here's the thing with libertarians: I support basically every other thing you say.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant »

Jill Stein doesn’t mind helping Donald Trump beat Hillary Clinton
Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate for president, thinks progressives should vote for her even if it means Donald Trump would defeat Hillary Clinton as a result.

“Sometimes you have to lose elections to build your power,” Stein told RI Future in a wide-ranging, 35-minute interview Wednesday.
Well, then, by this point shouldn't the green's have enough power? They've certainly lost enough elections.
But what about all the Supreme Court justices Trump would appoint, I asked her.

“As opposed to having Hillary Clinton in power starting an air war with Russia over Syria because she wants a no-fly zone,” Stein responded. “She’s all about challenging Russia and provoking Russia and surrounding Russia with nuclear weapons and missiles and troops. Do we really want an aggressive war hawk in the White House who has a proven track record of actually doing the things that Donald Trump says?”
Way to completely avoid addressing the issue of supreme court justices in your answer to a question about supreme court justices.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Smutly »

Bernie Sanders Backers March Against Hillary Clinton in Philadelphia.
"Hell, no, D.N.C., we won't vote for Hillary".

More than 1,000 people marched behind a banner proclaiming "Help End Establishment Politics, Vote No on Hillary" was purported to be larger than any of the protest marches last week in Cleveland at the Republican National Convention. Numerous marchers said they would support Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate rejecting the argument that not voting for Mrs. Clinton would help Mr. Trump.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by RunningMn9 »

I was fairly well committed to voting my conscience in November, and voting for Gary Johnson. No more.

After watching the Rep convention last week, fuck that party. I will do my part to help finance Hillary Clinton.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Holman »

There hasn't been a clearer choice in my lifetime.

I hope there's never a clearer one than this.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by gilraen »

Smutly wrote:Bernie Sanders Backers March Against Hillary Clinton in Philadelphia.
"Hell, no, D.N.C., we won't vote for Hillary".
Hopefully as Bernie continues to address his supporters throughout the rest of this campaign, encouraging them to vote for Clinton in order to stop Trump, most of his supporters will, in fact, just vote Democrat in November. The remaining ones that will insist on voting 3rd-party just because they are "angry" probably were going to vote 3rd-party anyway (with or without Bernie).
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Zarathud »

Bernie's supporters who actually vote for Trump are unclear on the concepts Bernie supported. Those who vote Green were likely unreachable.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by El Guapo »

Zarathud wrote:Bernie's supporters who actually vote for Trump are unclear on the concepts Bernie supported. Those who vote Green were likely unreachable.
Yeah, this is right. There are probably a few Sanders supporters who might vote Trump on the "hastening revolution" theory, but I strongly doubt there are more than a few dozen of them, so who cares. There is potentially a non-trivial number who will stay home or vote third party. I find it a bit puzzling when Sanders himself has endorsed Clinton - I get that they dislike Clinton, BUT don't they trust Sanders's judgment at this point? If he's the guy who you trusted with completely overturning the system, and now he's telling you that the right thing to do in this election is to vote for Clinton...shouldn't that carry a lot of weight?

I'll be very interested in his speech this evening. Ideally he would lay out the positive reasons to his supporters / the far left to support Clinton in this election (even if she falls short of their ideal candidate) and not just the reasons to oppose Trump. Though I suspect that 90% of the speech will be about his platform and the reasons why Trump is so awful - which I would be fine with.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Chaz »

I think the people who won't be swayed by Sanders getting behind Clinton are the ones who feel like the only solution to the rigged system is to burn the whole thing down. They liked Bernie because he was preaching that line, especially in the second half of his run. Now they're probably seeing him as either a traitor to the "burn it down" cause, or a hostage to the DNC, supporting them with a gun to his head. Those are the ones who'll turn to Trump. They're also the ones who were never supporting Bernie for the policies he was pushing, and were only behind him as the figurehead of a greater revolution.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by LordMortis »

Chaz wrote:I think the people who won't be swayed by Sanders getting behind Clinton are the ones who feel like the only solution to the rigged system is to burn the whole thing down. They liked Bernie because he was preaching that line, especially in the second half of his run. Now they're probably seeing him as either a traitor to the "burn it down" cause, or a hostage to the DNC, supporting them with a gun to his head. Those are the ones who'll turn to Trump. They're also the ones who were never supporting Bernie for the policies he was pushing, and were only behind him as the figurehead of a greater revolution.

I can't speak for Bernie supporters because for me he was the best on an a horrible situation. I don't see him a traitor but then I was never a believer. I just have to find the next best thing and neither Trump nor Clinton is that next best thing. I don't think I can give it to Johnson because I fear he will attempt to "burn it down", so Stein is likely where I will go even though I am also not believer for her.

But I tell you what I'm sick of. I'm sick of hearing how I have to vote Clinton to Trump out office. It will be my fault just like Brexit. This is not a choice of "Trump or not Trump." This is a choice of "you don't won't Trump, then we're forcing Clinton on you." I am not at fault. If Clinton and the Democrats truly wanted Trump not to win they would have put someone else up for election. Someone, you know, who could have easily defeated Trump. The bipartisan system gives the people piss water set in the sun for a month and act surprised when they reject it because it's not a shit sandwich and then blame them for being picky and unreasonable.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by tgb »

LordMortis wrote: If Clinton and the Democrats truly wanted Trump not to win they would have put someone else up for election. Someone, you know, who could have easily defeated Trump. The bipartisan system gives the people piss water set in the sun for a month and act surprised when they reject it because it's not a shit sandwich and then blame them for being picky and unreasonable.
Seriously? Because by the time anyone (except Trump) took the idea of him becoming the candidate seriously, it was already too late to bring in another Clinton alternative that could gather momentum and have a shot at winning.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by LordMortis »

tgb wrote:Seriously? Because by the time anyone (except Trump) took the idea of him becoming the candidate seriously, it was already too late to bring in another Clinton alternative that could gather momentum and have a shot at winning.
Trump was my prediction when the poll first went back up. *shrug* Though I must admit while I was serious about the prediction, I laughed at his chance in general.

Now exactly how is it my fault that you believed Clinton was the right choice before you believed anyone (except Trump) else took Trump seriously?
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by tgb »

LordMortis wrote:
Now exactly how is it my fault that you believed Clinton was the right choice before you believed anyone (except Trump) else took Trump seriously?
I didn't and I don't. As an independent/libertarian (small l) I didn't vote in any primary, but if I had it would have been for Bernie.

That's all irrelevant. What isn't is that Trump has to be stopped, and unless you can think of another way to do it (outside of a head shot), voting for Hil is the only way.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Smoove_B »

I more or less figured Clinton was ramping up for this back in 2014 and that the system wouldn't have supported anyone else. I think that's why the interest in Bernie Sanders was so problematic (for the DNC) - Clinton's been the presumptive candidate for years now and he came along and started stealing her thunder.

But yes, I agree with LM here (I think):
The bipartisan system gives the people piss water set in the sun for a month and act surprised when they reject it because it's not a shit sandwich and then blame them for being picky and unreasonable.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by hepcat »

The problems started early in her bid for the office. I find it hard to understand why the DNC didn't have a back up plan ready. The writing was on the wall that she was going to be pretty goddamn unpopular from the outset. Now, like tgb, I'm stuck holding my nose while I'm in the voting booth and simply using my vote to stop a Trump presidency...period.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

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hepcat wrote:The problems started early in her bid for the office. I find it hard to understand why the DNC didn't have a back up plan ready. The writing was on the wall that she was going to be pretty goddamn unpopular from the outset. Now, like tgb, I'm stuck holding my nose while I'm in the voting booth and simply using my vote to stop a Trump presidency...period.
Barring something crazy (always possible this year), you can write in a block of cheese as your vote - Illinois is going for Hillary.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Kraken »

Clinton's veep pick shows that Democrats still don't grasp the anti-establishment fervor that's driving this election. They might still survive it and win this time around because Trump is such poison. But they had better not be feeling too confident.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by hepcat »

ImLawBoy wrote: Barring something crazy (always possible this year), you can write in a block of cheese as your vote - Illinois is going for Hillary.
Sure, you SAY that. But odds are, if I weren't to vote, the results would come back and clearly state Trump won Illinois by exactly one vote. Then they'll post a picture of me eating cheez whiz out of the can in my living room while wearing just my boxers, with the caption, "Local Man Opts to Binge Watch Desperate Housewives Instead of Saving Free World".
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by El Guapo »

hepcat wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote: Barring something crazy (always possible this year), you can write in a block of cheese as your vote - Illinois is going for Hillary.
Sure, you SAY that. But odds are, if I weren't to vote, the results would come back and clearly state Trump won Illinois by exactly one vote. Then they'll post a picture of me eating cheez whiz out of the can in my living room while wearing just my boxers, with the caption, "Local Man Opts to Binge Watch Desperate Housewives Instead of Saving Free World".
The press has been dying to use that photo for some time.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Blackhawk »

Facebook people keep telling me to vote my conscience.

I'd rather vote rationally.

Then again, I may be voting in self-defense.

Then again again, Indiana will likely be going to Trump regardless and I'd like to be able to say "Well, I didn't vote for her!" for the next four years instead of standing quietly looking at my shoes.

2016 pisses me off.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by RunningMn9 »

LordMortis wrote:The bipartisan system gives the people piss water set in the sun for a month and act surprised when they reject it because it's not a shit sandwich and then blame them for being picky and unreasonable.
You're getting a shit sandwich, no matter what you choose to do. The choice before you is to help pick which shit sandwich. If President Hillary Clinton is the same thing to you as President Donald Trump, than whatever other choice you make is irrelevant.

If President Hillary Clinton is worse to you than President Donald Trump, than you would be a fool to not vote for Trump (because avoiding President Hillary Clinton is in your best interest).

If President Donald Trump is worse to you than President Hillary Clinton, than you would be a fool to not vote for Clinton (because avoiding President Donald Trump is in your best interest).

President Donald Trump is so much worse to me than President Hillary Clinton, that even living in a "safe" state, I will enthusiastically vote for her.

Voting for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein gets me nothing, except making a far more unacceptable situation one vote closer to being a reality.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by tgb »

hepcat wrote:
Sure, you SAY that. But odds are, if I weren't to vote, the results would come back and clearly state Trump won Illinois by exactly one vote.
Aren't you in Chicago? Because in that case sitting it out would actually count as 6 votes for Trump. Not to mention all of your ancestors.
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