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Go ahead, throw your vote away

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LordMortis
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by LordMortis » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:02 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:If President Hillary Clinton is worse to you than President Donald Trump, than you would be a fool to not vote for Trump (because avoiding President Hillary Clinton is in your best interest).

If President Donald Trump is worse to you than President Hillary Clinton, than you would be a fool to not vote for Clinton (because avoiding President Donald Trump is in your best interest).

President Donald Trump is so much worse to me than President Hillary Clinton, that even living in a "safe" state, I will enthusiastically vote for her.
I disagree with conclusion and implied premises: Accept that the goal is to defensively keep out the worse of two evils for this election is to my way of thinking why the evils keep getting worse. It's why we have a Congress that is one hair away from being untenable with an ever increasing unacceptable choice for president.

I want to vote for a president (and congress) that both represents me and has the future of US best interests at heart. If that is the president I want then I would be a fool to vote for Trump or Clinton unless I believe the other one of them will destroy our country.

I will admit Trump support and an obstructionist Congress makes a strong case to vote for Clinton. I do not deny this. I even vacillate and falter when it comes to rejecting her.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:04 pm

Zarathud wrote:Bernie's supporters who actually vote for Trump are unclear on the concepts Bernie supported.
There was some study a while ago that I posted that suggested that people supported the positions Bernie had because they supported Bernie, rather than the other way around (eg, once he was outside the picture, they were less likely to support those positions)

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Holman » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:06 pm

My voting isn't enough. I live in a swing state, and I'll be volunteering for Clinton and GOTV campaigning in the fall.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:20 pm

With at least 1 supreme court seat vacant, reports that one justice is likely to retire soon and 3 other justices at or approaching their 80s and add in that the two major candidates have sharply different visions for America and this is likely to be an election that will have major repercussion for decades. You can vote third party if you want, but you'll be throwing away your voice in *that* major decision, and unless you really don't care about the outcome and both sides would be equally bad to you, that would be a mistake IMO.

But it's your choice.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by hepcat » Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:53 pm

Holman wrote:My voting isn't enough. I live in a swing state, and I'll be volunteering for Clinton and GOTV campaigning in the fall.
I'm contemplating dressing up in a Trump costume and making sure the media gets pictures of me shaking hands with a Mexican immigrant, dancing at a same sex marriage and handing a transgendered person the keys to the men's room at a gas station.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by RunningMn9 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:06 pm

LordMortis wrote:I disagree with conclusion and implied premises: Accept that the goal is to defensively keep out the worse of two evils for this election is to my way of thinking why the evils keep getting worse.
You can disagree all you want. There are only two possible outcomes: President Trump or President Clinton. That's it.

We can all WANT more possible outcomes, but there aren't any. I don't want *either* of these two people to be President. But only one of them is legitimately dangerous. And that I cannot abide.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
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Make up bags of change
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Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Zarathud » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:09 pm

It's called pick your poison. Voting for someone you like is a luxury.

Until national politics is changed through campaign finance reform and grassroots support of decent human beings (and a lot of effort by those sitting on the sidelines), you're voting between the options you have not those you want. It's called making an adult choice. I don't like most vegetables, but I'll eat them.

But don't listen to me. Elizabeth Warren makes great arguments about how Trump would be a disaster and Clinton would do ok on policy. Listen to her.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by tgb » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:56 pm

A friend of mine regularly points out that you have to worry about anybody who would want to be president, and I tend to agree.

Unless it would be president of the Three Stooges Fan Club, because that comes with all kinds of perks.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Rip » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:01 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
LordMortis wrote:I disagree with conclusion and implied premises: Accept that the goal is to defensively keep out the worse of two evils for this election is to my way of thinking why the evils keep getting worse.
You can disagree all you want. There are only two possible outcomes: President Trump or President Clinton. That's it.

We can all WANT more possible outcomes, but there aren't any. I don't want *either* of these two people to be President. But only one of them is legitimately dangerous. And that I cannot abide.
Me either. No way I vote for that bitch.......

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by hepcat » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:07 pm

You really don't want Melania setting up shop in the White House, huh?
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Zarathud » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:37 pm

If Rip doesn't want to vote for Trump, the polls are wrong and Trump's screwed.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by tgb » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:49 pm

I spent 90% of the money I made on women, booze, and drugs. The other 10% I just pissed away.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:20 pm


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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Moliere » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:34 pm

Access to the internet can be mind blowing.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Kraken » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:30 pm

I had intended to cast my protest vote for Stein, but the level of crazy that she's reached over the past several weeks has made that impossible. It's odd because she never devolved into that in her gubernatorial campaigns; this is a side of Jill Stein I've never seen before.

I can't support Johnson, either; like Samantha Bee said, "I agree with every other thing that you say," but the other half is anathema. Sorry, but unless he explicitly disavows it he is a big-L Libertarian Loony.

That leaves me with two choices: Write in Sanders, or vote for Clinton.

I have decided to hit the reset button on Hillary Clinton because I like the Democratic platform. She has until November to convince me that she believes in it and will fight for it, and I'm going to try not to let my natural distrust/dislike of her color my judgment between now and then. I want her to convince me.

My vote only matters to me since the odds of MA going for anyone other than Clinton are approximately equal to the odds of our moon deciding to go orbit Saturn for awhile. This makes it doubly vexing that I still don't have anyone to vote for with a clear conscience.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by LordMortis » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:46 pm

I have no idea what I will do if/when Stein is taken off the table with looney. I guess I've got just over three months to get it figured out.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by gbasden » Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:51 pm

I really can't understand her cozying up to the anti-vax crowd. I viewed her more or less favorably, but that's a huge black mark in my book.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by hitbyambulance » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:27 pm

http://www.snopes.com/is-green-party-ca ... i-vaccine/

so what's the deal, Jill? i understand the anti-nuclear sentiment and GMO distrust (that just kinda comes with the Greens, and has since time immemorial), but this stance really needs to be made explicit.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Captain Caveman » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:40 pm

Kraken wrote:I had intended to cast my protest vote for Stein, but the level of crazy that she's reached over the past several weeks has made that impossible. It's odd because she never devolved into that in her gubernatorial campaigns; this is a side of Jill Stein I've never seen before.

I can't support Johnson, either; like Samantha Bee said, "I agree with every other thing that you say," but the other half is anathema. Sorry, but unless he explicitly disavows it he is a big-L Libertarian Loony.

That leaves me with two choices: Write in Sanders, or vote for Clinton.

I have decided to hit the reset button on Hillary Clinton because I like the Democratic platform. She has until November to convince me that she believes in it and will fight for it, and I'm going to try not to let my natural distrust/dislike of her color my judgment between now and then. I want her to convince me.

My vote only matters to me since the odds of MA going for anyone other than Clinton are approximately equal to the odds of our moon deciding to go orbit Saturn for awhile. This makes it doubly vexing that I still don't have anyone to vote for with a clear conscience.
There's another reason for someone with your political leanings to vote for Clinton in a state where the winner isn't in doubt. Trump needs to lose by the largest margin possible.

Margins usually don't matter aside from perceived but mostly imaginary "mandates", but in this case the larger the margin, the larger the rejection of the Trump's repulsive brand of politics. Which theoretically should reduce the chances we see future imitators.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Kraken » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:34 pm

Captain Caveman wrote:
Kraken wrote:I had intended to cast my protest vote for Stein, but the level of crazy that she's reached over the past several weeks has made that impossible. It's odd because she never devolved into that in her gubernatorial campaigns; this is a side of Jill Stein I've never seen before.

I can't support Johnson, either; like Samantha Bee said, "I agree with every other thing that you say," but the other half is anathema. Sorry, but unless he explicitly disavows it he is a big-L Libertarian Loony.

That leaves me with two choices: Write in Sanders, or vote for Clinton.

I have decided to hit the reset button on Hillary Clinton because I like the Democratic platform. She has until November to convince me that she believes in it and will fight for it, and I'm going to try not to let my natural distrust/dislike of her color my judgment between now and then. I want her to convince me.

My vote only matters to me since the odds of MA going for anyone other than Clinton are approximately equal to the odds of our moon deciding to go orbit Saturn for awhile. This makes it doubly vexing that I still don't have anyone to vote for with a clear conscience.
There's another reason for someone with your political leanings to vote for Clinton in a state where the winner isn't in doubt. Trump needs to lose by the largest margin possible.

Margins usually don't matter aside from perceived but mostly imaginary "mandates", but in this case the larger the margin, the larger the rejection of the Trump's repulsive brand of politics. Which theoretically should reduce the chances we see future imitators.
By the same token the major parties will remain sanguine about offering unacceptable candidates as long as voters don't try to get out of their headlock. A strong NONE OF THE ABOVE showing in the blue states will concentrate Clinton's attention on 2020.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant » Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:03 pm

In case none of the major third-party candidates are to your liking, you can always vote for Bill Clinton.
Spoiler:
Not the same Bill Clinton, AFAICT

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:43 pm

Back in June, Gary Johnson opposes NAFTA and TPP because they're laden with crony capitalism:
Well, first of all, NAFTA. Would I have signed it or not? My skepticism says that maybe I wouldn't have signed it, because these trade agreements are just laden with crony capitalism. Would I have signed or implemented the Trans-Pacific Partnership? I've got to tell you, I think it's laden with crony capitalism. Free market really is the answer. It's the answer to unifying the whole planet, in my opinion, and if China wants to subsidize the goods that it sells to the United States, who benefits from that? Well, we do. And at the end of the day, who pays for any sort of tariffs? We do.
But then in July, Johnson and Weld supported TPP and NAFTA

:pop:

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by El Guapo » Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:31 pm


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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant » Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:46 am


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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Isgrimnur » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:13 pm

“The Stein/Baraka campaign believes a new inquiry is necessary.”
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by gilraen » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:45 pm

Jill Stein desperately tries to stay relevant. Someone should tell her that's not the way to do it.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Kraken » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:22 pm

By the usual playbook, fringe candidates get attention by saying outrageous things. That doesn't work when one of the leaders out-outrages you on a daily basis.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:27 pm

Well, it looks like Donald Trump isn't the only useful idiot running for President.

A conversation with Jill Stein
Well, Russian aggression meaning what, exactly? (References Crimea and Ukraine.) These are highly questionable situations. Why are we — Russia used to own Ukraine. Ukraine was historically a part of Russia for quite some period of time, and we all know there was this conversation with Victoria Nuland about planning the coup and who was going to take over.
I'm also amused at how she says she's not "privy" to the Green party's plan on Immigration. :pop:

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El Guapo
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by El Guapo » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:31 pm

Holy shit. So she's saying (like it's common knowledge) that the CIA orchestrated the popular revolution that ousted the former ukrainian dictator?


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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by LordMortis » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:29 pm

Quoting from your link is a lot less extreme than the headline you quote:
Admitting Trump is the worst possible thing that could happen to the country, she also says that the binary options amount to “death by gunshot or death by strangulation.”

While she describes Trump as a danger she also believes he’s nothing more than a moron who has destroyed the GOP. Clinton, on the other hand, she considers a greater threat.

“Donald Trump, I think, will have a lot of trouble moving things through Congress,” Stein says. “Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, won’t … Hillary has the potential to do a whole lot more damage, get us into more wars, faster to pass her fracking disastrous climate program, much more easily than Donald Trump could do his.”

While Stein might seem like the liberal option to moderate Clinton values, she also took a few punches at progressive leader Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) as another Washington insider.

“I’ve tried to talk with Bernie, but, you know, Bernie is — he is a team player,” she said, saying he refuses to speak to her. “I think he’s on the wrong team, perhaps because he’s been in Washington, D.C., too long, because he used to really understand independent politics and why we cannot have a viable political system unless we have independent political parties.” She concludes that it could be “a generational thing.”

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El Guapo
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by El Guapo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:09 pm

LordMortis wrote:

“Donald Trump, I think, will have a lot of trouble moving things through Congress,” Stein says. “Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, won’t … Hillary has the potential to do a whole lot more damage, get us into more wars, faster to pass her fracking disastrous climate program, much more easily than Donald Trump could do his.”
This is like pure, concentrated stupid. Yeah, the GOP controlled House is dying to pass Clinton's agenda rather than Trump's.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by malchior » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:33 pm

My mind went to the same place - how do you not understand fundamental dynamics of Congress WHILE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT? It is unreal.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:40 pm

malchior wrote:My mind went to the same place - how do you not understand fundamental dynamics of Congress WHILE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT? It is unreal.
And potentially winning, a la Drumpf. Stein almost certainly has a better understanding of how governance occurs than Drumpf.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by El Guapo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:00 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
malchior wrote:My mind went to the same place - how do you not understand fundamental dynamics of Congress WHILE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT? It is unreal.
And potentially winning, a la Drumpf. Stein almost certainly has a better understanding of how governance occurs than Drumpf.
ehhhh, while that's a low bar, I'm not entirely sure about that.

What's maddening about Stein is that she's independently a terrible choice for President, even if she did have a reasonable shot at it, and even if there weren't the risk of throwing the election to Trump.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by pr0ner » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:06 pm

Here's an interesting article I found thanks to Seth McFarlane election opining (will be posted in another thread) giving a mathematical analysis negating the idea of throwing your vote away.
Hodor.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Defiant » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:22 pm

The article defines a wasted vote as...
Votes cast for candidates who did not win
Excess votes cast for winning candidates
That seems like an odd way to define it, IMO. It also guarantees a minimum of 50% of votes in any election, regardless of outcome, are wasted votes.

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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by coopasonic » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:31 pm

pr0ner wrote:Here's an interesting article I found thanks to Seth McFarlane election opining (will be posted in another thread) giving a mathematical analysis negating the idea of throwing your vote away.
OK, so his conclusion there is really no vote matters. That was way more opinion than analysis.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:38 pm

I'm not worried about crackpot Trump policies being rubber stamped by a GOP congress. I'm worried about crackpot GOP congress policies being rubber stamped by Trump.
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Re: Go ahead, throw your vote away

Post by tgb » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:24 pm

Isn't Stein an anti-vaxxer or was that just a smear job? If she is, you really don't have to know a whole lot more.
I spent 90% of the money I made on women, booze, and drugs. The other 10% I just pissed away.

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