50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
$iljanus
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13676
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 pm
Location: New England...or under your bed

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by $iljanus »

em2nought wrote:I've had at least one gay, and several who are bisexual. I've been to at least one LGBT club, and no not to scope it out as a potential target. I've got no problem with LGBT people personally. It seems like there are two sets of rules in this country now. The left are permitted to say anything they want. The right can't even share an idea that crosses their mind without being labeled a pariah.
No one is banning you for what you're saying so there's no infringement on your ability to say it. But it's just an opinion that many folks find off base and it did to my mind come off as casting some blame on the victims to me.
Black lives matter!

Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70097
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by LordMortis »

RunningMn9 wrote:
em2nought wrote:The left are permitted to say anything they want. The right can't even share an idea that crosses their mind without being labeled a pariah.
Well, that's not precisely true, but as a rule, the left are allowed to say things they want to say like "everyone deserves the dignity of being who they are without fear of persecution", while the right is occasionally reviled and labeled a pariah because ideas like "these people are an abomination and should be given the death penalty" cross their mind and then escape their stupid lips.
It does seem like their is double standard coming from the hateful that says the hateful right should be censored while the hateful left should be able to spew their hateful dogma.

The problem from where I sit is that the vocal right does the right no good service to the rest of the right by insisting that they are being oppressed because they are not being allowed to oppress others. It also seems like the vocal angry Internet posters on both sides love to quote the others out of context and to find the most extreme examples of the other side and treat them as indicative of the whole them subset of people.

As Yellowking would say "What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?"
User avatar
dbt1949
Posts: 25687
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:34 am
Location: Hogeye Arkansas

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by dbt1949 »

I have heard that the shooter was also considering Disney as one of his targets.
So has it been confirmed that he chose the club because it was gay or because it was overflowing with people/targets.
Ye Olde Farte
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Isgrimnur »

The hateful left is ridiculed for trying to carve their own fiefdoms out of public spaces and attempting to silence those who might offend the tender feelings. However, there aren't literally centuries of history of the hateful left ruining the lives of wide swaths of people based on the color of their skin, sexual preference, or gender identity. No one is trying to pray away the straight or force white males into certain neighborhoods. The power has never been, on any substantial scale, on the extreme left wing.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
msteelers
Posts: 7157
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Port Saint Lucie, Florida
Contact:

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by msteelers »

dbt1949 wrote:I have heard that the shooter was also considering Disney as one of his targets.
So has it been confirmed that he chose the club because it was gay or because it was overflowing with people/targets.
There is nothing official yet in terms of motive. His wife said they scoped out Disney Springs, and there are a ton of reports that he hated homosexuals and might have been a closeted gay man. There are also suspicions that he might have considered another gay bar nearby.
User avatar
RunningMn9
Posts: 24461
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:55 pm
Location: The Sword Coast
Contact:

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by RunningMn9 »

LordMortis wrote:It does seem like their is double standard coming from the hateful that says the hateful right should be censored while the hateful left should be able to spew their hateful dogma.
Fuck the hateful left (whoever they are). The problem that I've seen is that certain people seem to interpret "people that call my hateful bullshit hateful are really being hateful themselves".
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
User avatar
LordMortis
Posts: 70097
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by LordMortis »

RunningMn9 wrote:(whoever they are).
An example, they are the people who run God's FB page with a response to this horrible act was asking when was the last time an atheist went and shot down a bunch of people in name of atheism. (As is turns out the answer is May of last year. Probably not the answer their rhetoric was looking for)
The problem that I've seen is that certain people seem to interpret "people that call my hateful bullshit hateful are really being hateful themselves".
No argument there. I think it's worthy of contempt when oppressors call themselves the victims for not being allowed to be the oppressors and that comes loud and clear from the right all too often.
User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 12295
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Moliere »

Mizzou race activist hijacks Orlando vigil
Too many white people at the Orlando vigil. :naughty:
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Isgrimnur »

Some people just don't understand that not everything has to be about them.

Image

This is Army Reserve Captain Antonio Brown.
Antonio Davon Brown was a captain in the United States Army Reserve. He was a 29-year-old graduate of Florida A&M University who took criminal justice at the Cocoa Beach campus, and his friends described him as a "down to earth, good guy." He joined the U.S. Army Reserve in 2008, serving in Kuwait from 2010-2011. He worked in Human Resources for the Army Reserve and was appointed Captain in March 2012.
He didn't come home from Pulse.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by GreenGoo »

Moliere wrote:Mizzou race activist hijacks Orlando vigil
Too many white people at the Orlando vigil. :naughty:
There's activist, and then there's crazy.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by GreenGoo »

Isgrimnur wrote: He didn't come home from Pulse.
What hits me especially hard is that he served, came home safe and sound and then this happens on his home turf.
User avatar
Alefroth
Posts: 8486
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:56 pm
Location: Bellingham WA

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Alefroth »

LordMortis wrote: An example, they are the people who run God's FB page with a response to this horrible act was asking when was the last time an atheist went and shot down a bunch of people in name of atheism. (As is turns out the answer is May of last year. Probably not the answer their rhetoric was looking for)
That's your bar for hateful? I think we need to find you a safe place.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by GreenGoo »

Spokesperson for the Pulse claims he was never a customer of theirs and that the very idea is ridiculous, which is counter to what a number of witnesses have claimed.

Well if a spokesperson thinks it's ridiculous, I guess we can forget about pursuing this line of the investigation.
User avatar
msteelers
Posts: 7157
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Port Saint Lucie, Florida
Contact:

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by msteelers »

His wife has admitted to driving him to the club to scope it out. I don't think it's really a question of if he was there or not, prior to the shooting.
User avatar
Pyperkub
Posts: 23583
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: NC- that's Northern California

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Pyperkub »

LordMortis wrote:
As Yellowking would say "What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?"
Probably not, as he's not a fan of Elvis...
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by GreenGoo »

msteelers wrote:His wife has admitted to driving him to the club to scope it out. I don't think it's really a question of if he was there or not, prior to the shooting.
Well the witnesses claim he frequented the bar many times, including getting so drunk they had to toss his ass out. If that's true, then I think it lends credence to the idea that he frequented the bar for other reasons. It doesn't prove anything, but it makes you wonder how much "planning" he was doing while drinking his ass off.
User avatar
gilraen
Posts: 4312
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:45 pm
Location: Broomfield, CO

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by gilraen »

Enough wrote:Something interesting my dad pointed out: the media is actually wrong about this being the largest US mass killing. Wounded Knee? Sand Creek (2/3 of the killed American Indians were women and children for that one)? Ludlow? Not trying to take away from the insane tragedy of Orlando, but it's an interesting observation by my fairly conservative pops I thought.
They really mean "mass shooting" (obviously 9/11 or Waco were mass killings with a higher body count but by different means) - and they are really just talking about modern history.
User avatar
Enough
Posts: 14688
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:05 pm
Location: Serendipity
Contact:

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Enough »

This is an excellent counterpoint to all the attention on the shooter.
My blog (mostly photos): Fort Ephemera - My Flickr Photostream

“You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day, and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn’t waste either.” ―Galen Rowell
User avatar
Hipolito
Posts: 2186
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:00 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Hipolito »

Enough wrote:This is an excellent counterpoint to all the attention on the shooter.
Thanks for posting this, this is great.
User avatar
Xmann
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:36 pm

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Xmann »

Enough wrote:This is an excellent counterpoint to all the attention on the shooter.
gut wrenching. can't even fathom what the family and friends are dealing with.

i know i sound like a broken record, but the hate it takes to slaughter innocent people like this just does not register in my mind.
gf.me/u/zhnmhs
User avatar
dbt1949
Posts: 25687
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:34 am
Location: Hogeye Arkansas

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by dbt1949 »

Did the shooter indeed hate these people or was he just cold blooded about killing people for his cause.
Ye Olde Farte
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 12295
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Moliere »

Gun sales surge among gays, lesbians after Orlando shooting
Gun shops typically see a spike in customers after mass shootings. But this time, many are seeing shoppers they’ve never really seen before: More gays and lesbians.
...
The Pink Pistols is a national gun club for gays and lesbians. It saw its membership soar from about 1,500 members on Saturday to 3,500 on Monday.
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
User avatar
RunningMn9
Posts: 24461
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:55 pm
Location: The Sword Coast
Contact:

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by RunningMn9 »

And now John McCain has come out claiming that Obama is "directly responsible" for the Orlando attack. His explanation? Obama failed to adequately address terror threats that lead to the rise of ISIS.

1) Even if we accept that opinion as truth - that would make him INdirectly responsible.
2) If you are looking for someone that is DIRECTLY responsible for the Orlando attack, why not look closer to home - to the man that armed him?

Surely the guy that put the Sig Sauer MCX in his hands is more directly responsible for that Sig Sauer MCX gunning down 100+ people than some vague horseshit about "inadequately addressed terror threats at some unspecified time in the past that may or may not have played a roll in the rise of ISIS in far off lands, which may or may not have any actual relevance to this fucking piece of shit who may have just said "ISIS" just because it is en vogue at the moment to make him feel connected to something bigger."?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82085
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Isgrimnur »

Nice to see McCain can still keep me on the roller coaster of respect for him.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Zaxxon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 28118
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Zaxxon »

By McCain's logic, another person directly responsible would be, say, someone in a position of power with the capability to bring forth legislation in the highest legislative branch of the government? Like, perhaps, John McCain?
User avatar
$iljanus
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13676
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 pm
Location: New England...or under your bed

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by $iljanus »

Wow I had to look it up because I didn't think he would say such a ridiculous thing.
Black lives matter!

Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28906
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Holman »

Doesn't McCain *always* bring out the Crazy at primary time?

AZ won't pick its senate candidate until August. Right now McCain's approvals are very low among Arizona Republicans. They went big for Trump, so McCain will try a little Trumpism.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
Smoove_B
Posts: 54567
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 am
Location: Kaer Morhen

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Smoove_B »

RunningMn9 wrote:And now John McCain has come out claiming that Obama is "directly responsible" for the Orlando attack. His explanation? Obama failed to adequately address terror threats that lead to the rise of ISIS.
I maintain that even after all this time, whenever McCain is in a position where he is in front of the press all they should be asking him is about Sarah Palin. What's she's up to, how he feels about her latest ridiculous comments, what his observations are on whatever it is she's doing. He needs to spend every waking moment of whatever remains of his public service knowing that he's responsible for catapulting her into the relevancy.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
User avatar
Kurth
Posts: 5882
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:19 am
Location: Portland

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Kurth »

RunningMn9 wrote:And now John McCain has come out claiming that Obama is "directly responsible" for the Orlando attack. His explanation? Obama failed to adequately address terror threats that lead to the rise of ISIS.

1) Even if we accept that opinion as truth - that would make him INdirectly responsible.
2) If you are looking for someone that is DIRECTLY responsible for the Orlando attack, why not look closer to home - to the man that armed him?

Surely the guy that put the Sig Sauer MCX in his hands is more directly responsible for that Sig Sauer MCX gunning down 100+ people than some vague horseshit about "inadequately addressed terror threats at some unspecified time in the past that may or may not have played a roll in the rise of ISIS in far off lands, which may or may not have any actual relevance to this fucking piece of shit who may have just said "ISIS" just because it is en vogue at the moment to make him feel connected to something bigger."?
This is crazy, but even McCain realizes that. I think it's pretty clear from the context that he misspoke and the media is, naturally, running with it. He used the word "directly" but what he described was obvious an indirect responsibility. He screwed up, but he's not pulling a Trump and doubling (or tripling) down:

On Twitter:
To clarify, I was referring to Pres Obama’s national security decisions that have led to rise of #ISIL, not to the President himself
Last edited by Kurth on Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
User avatar
Pyperkub
Posts: 23583
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: NC- that's Northern California

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Pyperkub »

RunningMn9 wrote:And now John McCain has come out claiming that Obama is "directly responsible" for the Orlando attack. His explanation? Obama failed to adequately address terror threats that lead to the rise of ISIS.

1) Even if we accept that opinion as truth - that would make him INdirectly responsible.
2) If you are looking for someone that is DIRECTLY responsible for the Orlando attack, why not look closer to home - to the man that armed him?

Surely the guy that put the Sig Sauer MCX in his hands is more directly responsible for that Sig Sauer MCX gunning down 100+ people than some vague horseshit about "inadequately addressed terror threats at some unspecified time in the past that may or may not have played a roll in the rise of ISIS in far off lands, which may or may not have any actual relevance to this fucking piece of shit who may have just said "ISIS" just because it is en vogue at the moment to make him feel connected to something bigger."?
And apparently McCain has received more money from the NRA than any other current Congressperson (keyed by his Presidential Nomination, apparently):
There’s a good reason why McCain would ignore guns and focus on foreign policy. According to data from the Center of Responsive Politics, no member of Congress has received more direct and indirect support from the National Rifle Association than the $7.7 million that has gone to McCain over the course of his career. In 2008 alone, the NRA spent more than $7.2 million in an unsuccessful attempt to defeat Obama and elect McCain, who was the Republican candidate that cycle
Unless the 7.7 is direct and the 7.2 was SuperPAC for the election. didn't dig into the data (link at page)

Edit, looks like it is, so the claim is a bit misleading. However when I looked at the google doc for 2014, it appears as if the NRA spent roughly 27m on PAC expenditures and another 12m on Lobbying.

That's some serious cash...
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
tjg_marantz
Posts: 14688
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: Queen City, SK

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by tjg_marantz »

We do things a little differently here when we protest the straight white male.
Toward the end of the vigil attended by an estimated 3,000 people at Parc l’Espoir on Ste-Catherine St. E., Torres, who was standing next to Couillard amid masses of people, turned to the premier, shouted “Revolution” and “We will take back the street,” and threw a crumpled piece of paper at him. Some witnesses said he attempted to slap the premier. Couillard shouted something back before police grabbed Torres and pulled the premier away.
Home of the Akimbo AWPs
User avatar
Anonymous Bosch
Posts: 10512
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:09 pm
Location: Northern California [originally from the UK]

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Ex-NSA analyst and counterintelligence officer, John Schindler's take -- The Road to Orlando:
Observer.com wrote:Just as we should ask why he remained employed with a security firm that did significant work for the U.S. Government, we should be concerned that Mateen bought an AR-15, a near-military-grade weapon that surely did the lion’s share of the killing on Sunday, just days before he became the deadliest mass murderer in American history. The legalistic answer—that he had been convicted of no crime and the FBI’s investigations into Mateen never went very far—is correct but unsatisfying when 49 innocent Americans are dead.

The FBI’s double look at Mateen deserves close scrutiny. We know that the Bureau looked into him in 2013 after he talked threateningly at work about his alleged ties to international terrorism. The following year, Mateen popped up on the FBI’s radar again due to possible links to Moner Abu Salha, a 22-year-old Palestinian-American from Florida who died as a suicide bomber in Syria in 2014. In both cases, the FBI interviewed Mateen, found nothing requiring additional investigation, and moved on.

This was a significant missed opportunity, given what the security guard-turned-self-styled jihadist later did. It’s easy to find fault with the FBI here, but the reality is that the Bureau deals with hundreds of these cases every year, Americans who may be turning into jihadists, and most such investigations never go very far. The number of people in the United States who fit the Omar Mateen profile—an angry Muslim with extreme views and violent tendencies but no criminal record nor any detectable ties to international terrorism—runs into the thousands. FBI resources are limited, most such nutcases turn out to be delusional rather than bona fide terrorists, and not many of these scary individuals wind up on the Bureau’s radar for very long. Director James Comey’s comments today that the FBI did its job when it investigated Omar Mateen, and had no need to do anything differently, reflect reality as it exists in our government.

Per standard procedure, when they looked into Mateen, FBI agents ran his information against law enforcement and intelligence databases, did name-checks with the alphabet soup of spooky agencies in Washington, DC, and didn’t find very much. While the FBI understandably now wants to downplay its looks at Mateen in 2013-14, it seems unlikely that they found much of interest about him. He was simply yet another American Muslim with dangerous views and a penchant for violent trash-talk, but no criminal record. Until we outlaw crimethink, Omar Mateens will be in our midst, nasty people you don’t want to be your neighbor or co-worker.

...

It’s worth looking into what got the Bureau’s attention in the first place. While he had once been relaxed about gays, even hanging out with a drag queen, Mateen began to spout hatred at many groups, above all homosexuals. One co-worker at G4S, which employed Mateen from mid-2007, stated that he found the young man to be “unhinged and unstable,” regularly ranting about gays and minorities. The co-worker, who is now a police officer, filed several complaints with their employer about Mateen’s bizarre and troubling conduct—it included stalking and talking about killing people—but nothing was done because he was Muslim. According to the policeman, he left G4S in disgust once it became apparent that the firm was unwilling to take action against Mateen because of his religion.

There’s the rub. In 21st-century America, we have created a perverse incentive structure where fear of accusations of Islamophobia and/or racism takes priority over anything else, even preventing violence. While nobody could have foreseen the exact attack that Omar Mateen perpetrated, it’s abundantly clear that he was on track to do something awful, including murder. Yet nothing was done, even though warnings were abundant. Simply put, any American today who is accused of Islamophobia faces a ruined life with loss of employment and social stigma. Whereas the cost of not preventing mass murder is merely hurt feelings and regret.

In such an era, it’s difficult to find too much fault with the FBI. Per the cliché, they were only following orders. All the same, it bears asking why the Bureau went for the direct approach, bringing Mateen in for questioning, instead of watching him from a distance. Any time you bring a possible suspect in for interrogation, you’re showing your hand—which isn’t always wise. Particularly given Mateen’s known ties to a notorious Orlando jailbird-turned-radical-imam, there were investigative avenues of approach here that were apparently not taken, with fateful consequences.

However, the FBI was following the lead of its political masters. It’s hardly a big secret that President Obama from the moment he arrived at the White House put the kibosh on any discussion of radical Islam as a security problem, even in classified channels. In 2009, the administration banned politically loaded words like “jihad” even in classified Intelligence Community assessments discussing terrorism – a message that was received loud and clear in the counterterrorism community. Missing the next 9/11 could be survived, career-wise, while accusations of Islamophobia would not be with Barack Obama in the White House.

During Mr. Obama’s first term, there was a thorough purge of personnel in the Intelligence Community and the Defense Department who were unwilling to follow the new party line. People were mysteriously reassigned, contracts were suddenly cancelled, meetings were delayed never to be rescheduled. The message was obvious to counterterrorism professionals. As someone who has tried for years to walk a fine line on jihadism—we must be able to discuss political Islam and terrorism without stigmatizing all Muslims—I witnessed this happen, and it was tragically clear what the long-term consequences of this institutionalized unreality would be.

Now the much-feared mass-casualty jihadist attack on American soil, by a native-born American Muslim no less, has happened. President Obama, who is deeply invested in the unreality he has foisted on our security services, cannot be expected to reassess his errors in the last months of his second term. Every terrorist attack features what-ifs, missed off-ramps, and roads not taken. Our self-imposed blinders are causing us to miss these, hindering counterterrorism at home and abroad. As long as we value political correctness over the safety of Americans, innocent people will continue to die violently.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." — P. J. O'Rourke
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13680
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Max Peck »

Is that this Schindler? <this space reserved for a joke about his list>

I've never heard of him before, but if he's one of the crowd that was convinced that Sadam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, I'm not so sure I have a lot of confidence in his analytic insight.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Anonymous Bosch
Posts: 10512
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:09 pm
Location: Northern California [originally from the UK]

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Max Peck wrote:Is that this Schindler? <this space reserved for a joke about his list>

I've never heard of him before, but if he's one of the crowd that was convinced that Sadam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, I'm not so sure I have a lot of confidence in his analytic insight.
That's your prerogative. But even assuming it is the same bloke, given his counterintelligence background, it's fallacious ad-hom reasoning to assume that story has any bearing on the truth or falsity of what was written in his op-ed.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." — P. J. O'Rourke
User avatar
Fitzy
Posts: 2030
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:15 pm
Location: Rockville, MD

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Fitzy »

Anonymous Bosch wrote:
Max Peck wrote:Is that this Schindler? <this space reserved for a joke about his list>

I've never heard of him before, but if he's one of the crowd that was convinced that Sadam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, I'm not so sure I have a lot of confidence in his analytic insight.
That's your prerogative. But even assuming it is the same bloke, given his counterintelligence background, it's fallacious ad-hom reasoning to assume that story has any bearing on the truth or falsity of what was written in his op-ed.
Being completely wrong in one major national security issue isn't reason to question someone's judgement on another?
User avatar
RunningMn9
Posts: 24461
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:55 pm
Location: The Sword Coast
Contact:

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by RunningMn9 »

Fitzy wrote:Being completely wrong in one major national security issue isn't reason to question someone's judgement on another?
Certainly not, if you want to rely on him as your expert witness on this other national security issue.

My question about the clipped piece is this - it makes the claim that nothing was done about this shit head at the security company because he was Muslim. Is that the policeman's opinion? Or did someone tell him that?

This is the problem with op-eds.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by malchior »

My issue that leaped out at me is that he takes an allegation and turns it into a fact that he uses to spin his obvious political agenda. The former co-worker who quit *claimed* that <asshole shooter> was never dealt with because he was a Muslim. Something that hasn't been substantiated. It is a single person's opinion on the matter. It might be true. Or the asshole shooter and the accuser didn't get along; maybe they had a history that the company took into account when and if they investigated. Or it never happened. Who knows - but as someone who supposedly is an expert at analyzing intelligence it seems hard to believe he would miss that and use it as support for his argument.
User avatar
msteelers
Posts: 7157
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Port Saint Lucie, Florida
Contact:

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by msteelers »

There were a lot of missteps when dealing with the shooter. The FBI had two cracks at him, and didn't see anything. The security company he worked for had been warned numerous times about his behavior, but all they would do was move him from job to job.

This guy worked security at the federal courthouse in Fort Pierce. There were so many complaints against him that the sheriff investigated and then asked the security company to move him. Once they did the sheriff went to the FBI.

It's hard to believe that so many people saw something wrong with this guy and reported it, and yet nothing was done. It shows just how hard it is to stop the lone wolf attacks.
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13680
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by Max Peck »

Anonymous Bosch wrote:
Max Peck wrote:Is that this Schindler? <this space reserved for a joke about his list>

I've never heard of him before, but if he's one of the crowd that was convinced that Sadam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, I'm not so sure I have a lot of confidence in his analytic insight.
That's your prerogative. But even assuming it is the same bloke, given his counterintelligence background, it's fallacious ad-hom reasoning to assume that story has any bearing on the truth or falsity of what was written in his op-ed.
Zounds, those there are some high-falutin' words son. But if you don't know who he is, why do you give so much credence to his "counterintelligence background" in the first place? Is it just because he says things that you like to hear? For me, if I read an article by someone I've never heard of, and it reads like it was written by a shill with an agenda, and I do a cursory search for articles about the author, and the first thing I find includes this, then yeah, I reach for the salt. But that's just me -- if you want to swallow what he's selling, unseasoned, that's your perogative.

Anyway, it turns out that Mr Schindler has a lot to say and much of it is available here. Rip should get some mileage from that blog, if nothing else. :)
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
tjg_marantz
Posts: 14688
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: Queen City, SK

Re: 50 Reported Dead, 53 Injured In Shooting At Fl. Club

Post by tjg_marantz »

It's hard to believe that so many people saw something wrong with this guy and reported it, and yet nothing was done. It shows just how hard it is to stop the lone wolf attacks.
Clearly more rights should be taken away so it doesn't happen again.
/s
Home of the Akimbo AWPs
Post Reply