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Brexit

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Moliere
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Brexit

Post by Moliere » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:15 am

(don't leave!)
Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Brexit

(leave!)
Brexit: Welcome, Britain, To Our Revolution
As an American, the Brexit — Britain’s upcoming referendum on whether to exit the European Union — does not directly affect me, nor do I have a vote on it. But from the perspective of American history, I think I can offer some relevant context and advice.

The Brexit is a good opportunity to welcome the mother country to our revolution, because the fundamental issue in the Brexit is exactly the same as the one that impelled us to separate from Britain more than two centuries ago.
...
That was the key issue of the American Revolution: the consent of the governed. The question was whether we were to be subject to laws passed by representatives elected by and accountable to us or whether we were to be subject to the decisions of an institution that was not answerable to the people it governed. So it’s not just about rejecting the sovereignty of a hereditary monarch. It’s also about rejecting control by a distant and unaccountable bureaucracy.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:33 am

But they actually have representation. And they're up for the presidency in the last half of next year.
Last edited by Isgrimnur on Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Moliere
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Re: Brexit

Post by Moliere » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:59 am

Isgrimnur wrote:But they actually have representation. And they're up for the presidency in the last half of next year.
Link leads to an open OO post.
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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:05 pm

I've stayed the hell away from the Brexit topic. It's complex and deeply personal and far reaching.

Whatever Britain decides, that's the way it will be. Good luck to them.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Max Peck » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:09 pm

Moliere wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:But they actually have representation. And they're up for the presidency in the last half of next year.
Link leads to an open OO post.
I'm not sure what the intended link was, but the UK gets their next turn at the head of the table in July-December 2017 (assuming they don't bail), and will be a member of the next trio (UK/Estonia/Bulgaria) from Jul 2017 through Dec 2018.
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:13 pm

Fixed. Max has the same link.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Max Peck » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:31 am

In Brexit vote, echoes of Trumpism minus Donald Trump
To U.S. voters who have witnessed the rise of Donald Trump, the campaign urging Britain to abandon the European Union may appear eerily familiar.

There’s the nationalism, the romanticized nostalgia for an earlier time, the mistrust of political and financial elites, and the fears that migrants are bringing crime and stealing jobs. Call it Trumpism minus Trump, the New York real estate developer who has emerged as the presumptive Republican presidential nominee in the 2016 U.S. elections.

If British citizens vote on Thursday in favor of exiting the European Union, it would allow Britain to negotiate its own trade deals and better control who enters the country, among other things. Both sides in the polarized debate have mounted extensive campaigns and polls show the vote could be close.

Trump, who will travel to Britain this week, supports the "Leave" camp, popularly known as Brexit. “I would personally be more inclined to leave, for a lot of reasons like having a lot less bureaucracy,” he told The Sunday Times.

He has spent much of his presidential campaign warning of the dangers posed by undocumented immigrants from Mexico and refugees from the Middle East and has proposed building a wall along the southern border of the United States. Syrian refugees have also been center stage in the Brexit debate, with pro-exit forces arguing that Britain must do more to curb the flow of economic migrants from the Middle East and elsewhere.

"I see similar themes on both sides of the Atlantic - a strong sense of threatened national identity, anti-globalization, nostalgia, and a sense that elites aren't accountable," said Wendy Rahn, a political science professor at the University of Minnesota who has studied Trump voters.

Trump's campaign and the Brexit movement are two of the starkest examples of a new strain of conservative populism that stretches beyond the United States and Britain, into Sweden, France, Poland and elsewhere in Europe.
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Re: Brexit

Post by Kraken » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:56 am

I thought Britain had declared Trump persona non grata and banned him from the country.
GreenGoo wrote:I've stayed the hell away from the Brexit topic. It's complex and deeply personal and far reaching.

Whatever Britain decides, that's the way it will be. Good luck to them.
Philosophically, I almost invariable prefer union to nationalism, but I'm also sympathetic to the outsider vs. establishment angle. I agree that it's probably more complicated than it is presented in our press and my ambivalence means diddly anyway. I guess I'm rooting for a No vote because the world economy is too fragile for self-inflicted shocks like this.

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Re: Brexit

Post by gbasden » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:38 pm

Kraken wrote: I guess I'm rooting for a No vote because the world economy is too fragile for self-inflicted shocks like this.
Yes. Greece is extremely worried about a yes vote as they believe it will trigger a European recession just as they are starting to recover. Given the chance that Scotland and Ireland may wish to remain in the EU, I find it hard to understand how the division of the UK, economic turmoil and long term economic loss of opportunity are worth the short term feel good boost. Then again, a wall makes no sense either, so...

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Re: Brexit

Post by Kurth » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:09 am

I really hope the UK stays in. The last thing the world needs is for the EU to fall apart and for Europe to revert to its long tradition of nationalism. This is especially true considering the degree to which the BREXIT movement is animated by anti-immigrant xenophobia.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Archinerd » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:29 am

Kurth wrote:I really hope the UK stays in. The last thing the world needs is for the EU to fall apart and for Europe to revert to its long tradition of nationalism. This is especially true considering the degree to which the BREXIT movement is animated by anti-immigrant xenophobia.
My fingers are crossed. Apparently I don't get a vote even though I was a British Naval Officer in a former life. :roll:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:35 am

Express
British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens who live in the UK, along with Britons who have lived abroad for less than 15 years, are eligible to vote.
*fewer
As with other elections, only people aged 18 and over can cast their vote in the nationwide referendum today.

Commonwealth migrants from 54 states - including ­Australia, Canada, India, Pakistan and Nigeria - could join the electoral roll as long are they are residents in the UK.

Unlike in general elections, Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar are allowed to vote and have gone to the polls in the EU referendum.

To register as an overseas voter, British citizens must have been registered in a UK constituency less than 15 years ago.
*fewer
UK expats are voting by post, by appointing someone to vote on their behalf or in person at their home polling station if they are visiting the UK.
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:35 am

Archinerd wrote:
Kurth wrote:I really hope the UK stays in. The last thing the world needs is for the EU to fall apart and for Europe to revert to its long tradition of nationalism. This is especially true considering the degree to which the BREXIT movement is animated by anti-immigrant xenophobia.
My fingers are crossed. Apparently I don't get a vote even though I was a British Naval Officer in a former life. :roll:
Me as well. I haven't been following the actual arguments super closely, but my sense of it is that the disinterested informed people are generally arguing that leaving would be a crazy idea, and might cause broader economic problems, while the pro-Brexit camp sounds a lot like Trump-ism.

So, hoping that they stay in.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Archinerd » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:37 am

Like I said, there's nothing about reincarnated naval officers.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:38 am

Nope. Next time, get Shirley MacLaine on the voting board.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Kurth » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:55 am

I was born in the UK, lived there until I was 5 and can claim dual-citizenship. But no vote for me!
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Re: Brexit

Post by Anonymous Bosch » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:11 pm

Kurth wrote:I was born in the UK, lived there until I was 5 and can claim dual-citizenship. But no vote for me!
That's probably because you speak with an American accent, which clearly renders your opinion null and void.

I was able to vote myself (as I'm under the 15-yr expat limitation), but didn't bother as it strikes me as an overhyped tempest in a teacup.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Alefroth » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:30 pm

gbasden wrote:
Kraken wrote: I guess I'm rooting for a No vote because the world economy is too fragile for self-inflicted shocks like this.
Yes. Greece is extremely worried about a yes vote as they believe it will trigger a European recession just as they are starting to recover. Given the chance that Scotland and Ireland may wish to remain in the EU, I find it hard to understand how the division of the UK, economic turmoil and long term economic loss of opportunity are worth the short term feel good boost. Then again, a wall makes no sense either, so...
I think you might mean Northern Ireland. Don't mean to nitpick, but it's an important distinction.

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Re: Brexit

Post by hitbyambulance » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:30 pm

i am guessin the Scots, Welsh and Catholics in N. Ireland are not *at all* in favor. i could see if it did succeed, the next Scottish independence vote might happen sooner than later, pass, and rejoin the EU.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:37 pm

No exit polls
On the day in which Britain’s future hangs in the balance, you would think that people would be on tenterhooks, eager for exit poll results to discuss and decipher.

They won’t get any. There will be no official exit poll results, not even after the polls close at 10pm today (June 23), because this referendum is such an anomaly that there is no way to design a reliable exit poll.

Regular exit polls are run by asking people at a sample of voting booths across the country how they voted, and then comparing the results with surveys from the same locations in previous elections. “The changes can be projected to build up a national picture,” the Independent explains.

But since Britain is voting on whether or not it will stay in the EU, a topic that has not been part of a general election, there is no baseline.
...
Some people, namely rich ones, will commission their own data. Financial firms will run private exit polls to try and make money in some of the myriad markets available: the direction of the pound—which has been shooting up lately—or the stock market. “Hedge funds have asked for exit polls and for hourly polls on the day. Banks are certainly commissioning polls for their own consumption that are never released,” one pollster told the Financial Times
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Re: Brexit

Post by Kraken » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:39 pm

I like Dr Who and Wife was a Downton Abbey fan, and yet we don't get to vote, either.

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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:42 pm

I lived outside of London for most of a year about 15 years ago, so it's cool if I vote, right?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Enough » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:50 pm

Science Friday last week had an interesting tidbit on how the leading scientists of the UK almost universally oppose leaving the EU. Folks like Hawking and Higgs are among those urging to stay in the EU. An interesting argument, feel free to google but here's one article outlining some of the concerns.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Archinerd » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:51 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:... you would think that people would be on tenterhooks, eager for exit poll results to discuss and decipher.
Tenterhooks?
Wikipeida:Tenterhooks are hooks in a device called a tenter. Tenters were originally large wooden frames which were used as far back as the 14th century in the process of making woollen cloth. ... The lengths of wet cloth were stretched on the tenter using tenterhooks all around the perimeter of the frame to which the cloth's edges were fixed, so that as it dried the cloth would retain its shape and size.

By the mid-18th century, the phrase "on tenterhooks" came to mean being in a state of tension, uneasiness, anxiety, or suspense, i.e. figuratively stretched like the cloth on the tenter
That one is new to me.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Unagi » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:54 pm

Don't you have work to do?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Moliere » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:04 pm

I am a decedent of former British colonists. Can I vote? If not, I want reparations.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Blackhawk » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:13 pm

My family was wealthy and important in the London area, and we only left a little under 400 years ago.

I do still drink a lot of tea. Some of it is even British.

I vote stay. This is based entirely in the hope that one day the EU will merge with the UN, become effective, and change its name to the United Federation of Planets.
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Re: Brexit

Post by hepcat » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:17 pm

I always thought it was tender hooks. Although to be fair, that might have a lot to do with my love of the Hellraiser movies.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:20 pm

They made a documentary for you.
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Re: Brexit

Post by hepcat » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:23 pm

I remember watching A Man Called Horse as a kid and thinking to myself, "Self, why don't you grab a few fish hooks and some wire and suspend yourself from the tv antenna out back."

Then I thought to myself, "You're an idiot...that's gonna hurt!"

My last thought that day was, "I really like cheese...I wonder if there's cheese in the house."

...although some would say that final one was my last thought...period.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Max Peck » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:27 pm

hepcat wrote:I always thought it was tender hooks. Although to be fair, that might have a lot to do with my love of the Hellraiser movies.
Me too (minus the Hellraiser connection). It's an expression that I've heard many times, and more or less understood, but had never seen in writing. Until today. :)
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There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
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Re: Brexit

Post by em2nought » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:21 pm

I still can't believe the Scots stayed so, ain't happening.
Waiting for the tide to bring me a sail.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Max Peck » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:35 pm

The BBC is reporting the referendum results here.
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Re: Brexit

Post by Holman » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:59 pm

Max Peck wrote:The BBC is reporting the referendum results here.
Thanks for that link.

Slate has a live-blog here, although it's not very active yet. The important results haven't started coming in.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Enough » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:11 pm

Holman wrote:
Max Peck wrote:The BBC is reporting the referendum results here.
Thanks for that link.

Slate has a live-blog here, although it's not very active yet. The important results haven't started coming in.
That BBC link is fun to watch. Gibraltar is a landslide for remaining, heh.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:23 pm

I hope all the voters used their writing implement of choice:
A conspiracy theory that someone would be rubbing out votes cast in favour of leaving the European Union began circulating on earlier this week, prompting the hashtag #usepens.
...
A pro-Brexit voter even complained about police being called after she offered to lend her pen to people to prevent the government rigging the result.

A pro-Brexit voter even complained about police being called after she offered to lend her pen to people to prevent the government rigging the result.
...
A poll earlier this week revealed that a number of people believe that the EU referendum is rigged, has been infiltrated by MI5, and the BBC and ITN are conspiring to fix the result.

Almost half of those backing ‘Brexit’ believe it is “probably true” that the outcome is pre-determined, a YouGov poll for LBC found.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:25 pm

And has no one told Tony Blair that it's not a good idea to hold up signs?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Unagi » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:40 pm

Man, I don't know how the brits get such a bad rap on their teeth.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Grifman » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:10 pm

This may force the Scots out. They want to remain in the EU so this won't go over very well. So the UK may gain it's "independence" but might lose Scotland in the process. Not sure that's a good deal.
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Re: Brexit

Post by hitbyambulance » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:41 pm

Grifman wrote:This may force the Scots out. They want to remain in the EU so this won't go over very well. So the UK may gain it's "independence" but might lose Scotland in the process. Not sure that's a good deal.
hitbyambulance wrote:i am guessin the Scots, Welsh and Catholics in N. Ireland are not *at all* in favor. i could see if it did succeed, the next Scottish independence vote might happen sooner than later, pass, and rejoin the EU.

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