What I get out of this is that there is a very sizable amount of people in the UK, probably in all Europe, who really are scared of immigration. I think of how the US has been in existence such a relatively short time and with a diverse population and it occurs to me that maybe we here can't grasp their thinking. In Europe their history and culture goes back much farther, so they're proud of it and want to protect it.
I think this because the EU has been around for some time now, but UK is only voting to leave now, why? What's different now? Well, there's been all this immigration and refugee crisis going on in recent years, that's new. So it makes sense that older voters, those most likely to remember the old days, want to go back to those old days, the days before all these foreigners were invading their shores. That's why they don't care about the other consequences, the only priority was protecting their vision of what the UK should be.
That's what Trump is selling here in the US, I hope we don't buy into it as well.
gameoverman wrote:In Europe their history and culture goes back much farther, so they're proud of it and want to protect it.
While that's almost certainly true, they're history and proximity has also kept them much closer and much more aware of "Other". While we are considered a melting pot here, we are still very isolated from the world.
gameoverman wrote:That's why they don't care about the other consequences, the only priority was protecting their vision of what the UK should be.
And that's the problem - they are trying to recreate their vision of what the UK should be, and forcing that upon the people that will actually have to live in it (that don't want it) when they die in the next 5-10 years.
gameoverman wrote:That's what Trump is selling here in the US, I hope we don't buy into it as well.
Thankfully we aren't running a referendum vote. Trump has a much bigger obstacle here, trying to overcome electoral math.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
gameoverman wrote:What I get out of this is that there is a very sizable amount of people in the UK, probably in all Europe, who really are scared of immigration. I think of how the US has been in existence such a relatively short time and with a diverse population and it occurs to me that maybe we here can't grasp their thinking. In Europe their history and culture goes back much farther, so they're proud of it and want to protect it.
I think this because the EU has been around for some time now, but UK is only voting to leave now, why? What's different now? Well, there's been all this immigration and refugee crisis going on in recent years, that's new. So it makes sense that older voters, those most likely to remember the old days, want to go back to those old days, the days before all these foreigners were invading their shores. That's why they don't care about the other consequences, the only priority was protecting their vision of what the UK should be.
That's what Trump is selling here in the US, I hope we don't buy into it as well.
Seeing as how Trump won the GOP Nomination (presumptively), it's not that hard to understand in the US, as it's happening here too. It's not just Trump who has been clamoring for a wall, or trying to keep muslims out.
To a degree, this is a direct result of the Iraq war and subsequent destabilization of the Middle East. The GOP is desperately trying to pin this on Obama, but even Trump acknowledges that it was the Bush Administration who screwed the pooch there (even if he's trying to change that narrative now). Frankly, the massively poor planning on what to do with Iraq after the 6-week rollover falls squarely on the neocons.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
I just need to say for the record that the term "Brexit" makes my skin crawl in the same manner as "bromance" and "staycation." Had to get that off my chest. Carry on, everyone!
Pyperkub wrote: this is a direct result of the Iraq war and subsequent destabilization of the Middle East. The GOP is desperately trying to pin this on Obama, but even Trump acknowledges that it was the Bush Administration who screwed the pooch there (even if he's trying to change that narrative now). Frankly, the massively poor planning on what to do with Iraq after the 6-week rollover falls squarely on the neocons.
gameoverman wrote:What I get out of this is that there is a very sizable amount of people in the UK, probably in all Europe, who really are scared of immigration. I think of how the US has been in existence such a relatively short time and with a diverse population and it occurs to me that maybe we here can't grasp their thinking. In Europe their history and culture goes back much farther, so they're proud of it and want to protect it.
I think this because the EU has been around for some time now, but UK is only voting to leave now, why? What's different now? Well, there's been all this immigration and refugee crisis going on in recent years, that's new. So it makes sense that older voters, those most likely to remember the old days, want to go back to those old days, the days before all these foreigners were invading their shores. That's why they don't care about the other consequences, the only priority was protecting their vision of what the UK should be.
That's what Trump is selling here in the US, I hope we don't buy into it as well.
Seeing as how Trump won the GOP Nomination (presumptively), it's not that hard to understand in the US, as it's happening here too. It's not just Trump who has been clamoring for a wall, or trying to keep muslims out.
To a degree, this is a direct result of the Iraq war and subsequent destabilization of the Middle East. The GOP is desperately trying to pin this on Obama, but even Trump acknowledges that it was the Bush Administration who screwed the pooch there (even if he's trying to change that narrative now). Frankly, the massively poor planning on what to do with Iraq after the 6-week rollover falls squarely on the neocons.
That is ridiculous. It was obviously Bill Clinton's fault for not killing Bin Laden when he had the chance.
gameoverman wrote:That's what Trump is selling here in the US, I hope we don't buy into it as well.
Thankfully we aren't running a referendum vote. Trump has a much bigger obstacle here, trying to overcome electoral math.
Trump has already expressed his pleasure that the people of the UK have taken their country "back" and has also said that he sees a lot of similarities between the Brexit movement and his own rise to power. And he likes what he sees.
Good luck America.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rip wrote:
That is ridiculous. It was obviously Bill Clinton's fault for not killing Bin Laden when he had the chance.
What pisses me off is that of all the billions of people in the future, not one of them has taken the time to get in their time machine to come back and kill Hitler. I'm guessing that the entirety of the future human race are anti-Semitic. Which, as far as I can tell, is only about a 5% shift from today's world population.
YellowKing wrote:I just need to say for the record that the term "Brexit" makes my skin crawl in the same manner as "bromance" and "staycation." Had to get that off my chest. Carry on, everyone!
I'm with you. I just can't make myself type it. I suggest 'that British fuckwittery' instead.
Eurasia Group President Ian Bremmer tweeted that the Brexit is "the most significant political risk the world has experienced since the Cuban Missile Crisis."
When asked to explain what he meant by that comparison, Bremmer told Business Insider in an email: "Yes it's a significant shock for the near term. But it's the tipping point it reflects longer term that really matters. Much, much more G-Zero."
The term "G-Zero world," coined by Bremmer and political scientist David F. Gordon, refers to a power-vacuum world in which "major powers set aside aspirations for global leadership - alone, coordinated, or otherwise - and look primarily inward for their policy priorities."
In this kind of environment, global governance institutions become confrontational hotspots, and, as a result, economic growth and efficiency slows.
Sure there's a risk, but greater than the dissolution of the Soviet Union??? With nukes all over the place? This guy has some serious tunnel vision issues.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
YellowKing wrote:I just need to say for the record that the term "Brexit" makes my skin crawl in the same manner as "bromance" and "staycation." Had to get that off my chest. Carry on, everyone!
You ain't seen nuthin' yet; just wait until the Nexit, Frexit, Dexit, and Swexit.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." — P. J. O'Rourke
YellowKing wrote:I just need to say for the record that the term "Brexit" makes my skin crawl in the same manner as "bromance" and "staycation." Had to get that off my chest. Carry on, everyone!
You ain't seen nuthin' yet; just wait until the Nexit, Frexit, Dexit, and Swexit.
Pyperkub wrote: this is a direct result of the Iraq war and subsequent destabilization of the Middle East. The GOP is desperately trying to pin this on Obama, but even Trump acknowledges that it was the Bush Administration who screwed the pooch there (even if he's trying to change that narrative now). Frankly, the massively poor planning on what to do with Iraq after the 6-week rollover falls squarely on the neocons.
QFT
The same neocons that are starting to support Hillary. Political realignment anyone? Will the Dems return to their neocon Scoop Jackson ways? Mike Potemra came up with the Jacksonian theory of the Democratic party: Andrew Jackson, Scoop Jackson and then Jessie Jackson.
My blog (mostly photos): Fort Ephemera - My Flickr Photostream
“You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day, and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn’t waste either.” ―Galen Rowell
Pyperkub wrote:
To a degree, this is a direct result of the Iraq war and subsequent destabilization of the Middle East.
To a small degree. There was terrorism and refugees and anti-Immigrant sentiment before Iraq, and as has been pointed out previously, the vast majority of immigrants in the UK aren't from the Middle East.
gameoverman wrote:
I think this because the EU has been around for some time now, but UK is only voting to leave now, why? What's different now?
Well, technically, they voted now because Cameron called for this referendum now. Sure, the divisiveness has been there for years but with the migrant crisis and EU economy not recovering nearly as well as UK's economy (and other issues), the rumblings in his party hit critical mass. So he decided to use this referendum as a political ploy to show that the Brits really wanted to stay in the EU. It backfired on him, now the UK has to live with the result. It's a vote that did not need to happen and would not have happened if Cameron hadn't misjudged his chances.
Pyperkub wrote: this is a direct result of the Iraq war and subsequent destabilization of the Middle East. The GOP is desperately trying to pin this on Obama, but even Trump acknowledges that it was the Bush Administration who screwed the pooch there (even if he's trying to change that narrative now). Frankly, the massively poor planning on what to do with Iraq after the 6-week rollover falls squarely on the neocons.
QFT
The same neocons that are starting to support Hillary. Political realignment anyone? Will the Dems return to their neocon Scoop Jackson ways? Mike Potemra came up with the Jacksonian theory of the Democratic party: Andrew Jackson, Scoop Jackson and then Jessie Jackson.
Are they supporting Clinton or opposing Trump?
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
Pyperkub wrote: this is a direct result of the Iraq war and subsequent destabilization of the Middle East. The GOP is desperately trying to pin this on Obama, but even Trump acknowledges that it was the Bush Administration who screwed the pooch there (even if he's trying to change that narrative now). Frankly, the massively poor planning on what to do with Iraq after the 6-week rollover falls squarely on the neocons.
QFT
The same neocons that are starting to support Hillary. Political realignment anyone? Will the Dems return to their neocon Scoop Jackson ways? Mike Potemra came up with the Jacksonian theory of the Democratic party: Andrew Jackson, Scoop Jackson and then Jessie Jackson.
Are they supporting Clinton or opposing Trump?
Well Robert Kagan is headlining a fundraiser for Hilary. My theory is it's a bit of both. Remember the neocons were forged in Scoop Jackson's shop.
My blog (mostly photos): Fort Ephemera - My Flickr Photostream
“You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day, and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn’t waste either.” ―Galen Rowell
gameoverman wrote:
I think this because the EU has been around for some time now, but UK is only voting to leave now, why? What's different now?
Well, technically, they voted now because Cameron called for this referendum now. Sure, the divisiveness has been there for years but with the migrant crisis and EU economy not recovering nearly as well as UK's economy (and other issues), the rumblings in his party hit critical mass. So he decided to use this referendum as a political ploy to show that the Brits really wanted to stay in the EU. It backfired on him, now the UK has to live with the result. It's a vote that did not need to happen and would not have happened if Cameron hadn't misjudged his chances.
This morning, Northern Ireland’s Deputy First Minister Martin McGuiness, a member of the republican Sinn Fein party, called for a vote on pulling Northern Ireland out of the United Kingdom and uniting it with the Republic.
No, not really. Sinn Fein has always called for union with the Republican, something the Unionists will never accept, EU or no EU. Move along, nothing new here.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
cheeba wrote:The people who voted Leave are people who are (potentially) the most impacted by cheap labor.
That implies some rationality to their Leave vote, which appears to be a questionable prospect.
There is a rationality here that the elites ignore. There are over 3 million EU citizens living in the UK today, almost one million of them Poles. That's 5% of the population, a very large percent. These people are not low wage/skill migrants such as many Hispanic immigrants in the US, many of them are skilled in trades such as construction, auto repair, etc. Others have been attracted to the UK financial sector. Many UK citizens see these immigrants competing with them for jobs and depressing wages. That's a good deal of what is driving this vote.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
cheeba wrote:The people who voted Leave are people who are (potentially) the most impacted by cheap labor.
That implies some rationality to their Leave vote, which appears to be a questionable prospect.
There is a rationality here that the elites ignore. There are over 3 million EU citizens living in the UK today, almost one million of them Poles. That's 5% of the population, a very large percent. These people are not low wage/skill migrants such as many Hispanic immigrants in the US, many of them are skilled in trades such as construction, auto repair, etc. Others have been attracted to the UK financial sector. Many UK citizens see these immigrants competing with them for jobs and depressing wages. That's a good deal of what is driving this vote.
I'm not so sure that leaving the EU will have the economic benefits they apparently are hoping for.
YellowKing wrote:I just need to say for the record that the term "Brexit" makes my skin crawl in the same manner as "bromance" and "staycation." Had to get that off my chest. Carry on, everyone!
YellowKing wrote:I just need to say for the record that the term "Brexit" makes my skin crawl in the same manner as "bromance" and "staycation." Had to get that off my chest. Carry on, everyone!
Staycation and Carry On.
did I read that right?
Is this what more or less what you had in mind?
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
cheeba wrote:The people who voted Leave are people who are (potentially) the most impacted by cheap labor.
That implies some rationality to their Leave vote, which appears to be a questionable prospect.
There is a rationality here that the elites ignore. There are over 3 million EU citizens living in the UK today, almost one million of them Poles. That's 5% of the population, a very large percent. These people are not low wage/skill migrants such as many Hispanic immigrants in the US, many of them are skilled in trades such as construction, auto repair, etc. Others have been attracted to the UK financial sector. Many UK citizens see these immigrants competing with them for jobs and depressing wages. That's a good deal of what is driving this vote.
This was non-working and working-class poorer people making the decision to leave. There was no male/female difference. White people did not disproportionately vote to leave. UKIP voters were 96% leave. People who identify as "English" (not British), voted overwhelmingly to leave.
The Leave side cared more than Remain. Young people couldn't be bothered to vote.
Yeah, a unified Ireland, an independent Scotland, and a pissed off London.
That's the makings for awesome.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Yeah, a unified Ireland, an independent Scotland, and a pissed off London.
That's the makings for awesome.
I'm not sure that turnout by area signifies that they cared more. Given that the polls have been showing a neck and neck race, and the results were close to that (or at least, within the margin of error), it suggests to me that both sides had about the same turnout.
Yeah, a unified Ireland, an independent Scotland, and a pissed off London.
That's the makings for awesome.
The reactions are a bit knee jerk right now. United Ireland? Some people have been calling for that all along. Somehow the EU vote is going to some the Ireland problem? Have people completely forgotten recent history? I highly doubt it's going to happen.
Independent Scotland? Well that is more likely as they were close already and this could push them over the edge. The end of the U.S. UK special relationship? Doubtful.
Before people start assuming the worst (or best) we should probably let the dust settle a bit and see where the chips fall once the knee jerk reactions are over.
Smile at us, pay us, pass us; but do not quite forget;
For we are the people of England, that never have spoken yet.
There is many a fat farmer that drinks less cheerfully,
There is many a free French peasant who is richer and sadder than we.
There are no folk in the whole world so helpless or so wise.
There is hunger in our bellies, there is laughter in our eyes;
You laugh at us and love us, both mugs and eyes are wet:
Only you do not know us. For we have not spoken yet.
The fine French kings came over in a flutter of flags and dames.
We liked their smiles and battles, but we never could say their names.
The blood ran red to Bosworth and the high French lords went down;
There was naught but a naked people under a naked crown.
And the eyes of the King's Servants turned terribly every way,
And the gold of the King's Servants rose higher every day.
They burnt the homes of the shaven men, that had been quaint and kind,
Till there was no bed in a monk's house, nor food that man could find.
The inns of God where no man paid, that were the wall of the weak.
The King's Servants ate them all. And still we did not speak.
And the face of the King's Servants grew greater than the King:
He tricked them, and they trapped him, and stood round him in a ring.
The new grave lords closed round him, that had eaten the abbey's fruits,
And the men of the new religion, with their bibles in their boots,
We saw their shoulders moving, to menace or discuss,
And some were pure and some were vile; but none took heed of us.
We saw the King as they killed him, and his face was proud and pale;
And a few men talked of freedom, while England talked of ale.
A war that we understood not came over the world and woke
Americans, Frenchmen, Irish; but we knew not the things they spoke.
They talked about rights and nature and peace and the people's reign:
And the squires, our masters, bade us fight; and scorned us never again.
Weak if we be for ever, could none condemn us then;
Men called us serfs and drudges; men knew that we were men.
In foam and flame at Trafalgar, on Albuera plains,
We did and died like lions, to keep ourselves in chains,
We lay in living ruins; firing and fearing not
The strange fierce face of the Frenchmen who knew for what they fought,
And the man who seemed to be more than a man we strained against and broke;
And we broke our own rights with him. And still we never spoke.
Our patch of glory ended; we never heard guns again.
But the squire seemed struck in the saddle; he was foolish, as if in pain,
He leaned on a staggering lawyer, he clutched a cringing Jew,
He was stricken; it may be, after all, he was stricken at Waterloo.
Or perhaps the shades of the shaven men, whose spoil is in his house,
Come back in shining shapes at last to spoil his last carouse:
We only know the last sad squires rode slowly towards the sea,
And a new people takes the land: and still it is not we.
They have given us into the hand of new unhappy lords,
Lords without anger or honour, who dare not carry their swords.
They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs,
Their doors are shut in the evening; and they know no songs.
We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet,
Yet is there no man speaketh as we speak in the street.
It may be we shall rise the last as Frenchmen rose the first,
Our wrath come after Russia's wrath and our wrath be the worst.
It may be we are meant to mark with our riot and our rest
God's scorn for all men governing. It may be beer is best.
But we are the people of England; and we have not spoken yet.
Smile at us, pay us, pass us. But do not quite forget.
Yeah, a unified Ireland, an independent Scotland, and a pissed off London.
That's the makings for awesome.
The reactions are a bit knee jerk right now. United Ireland? Some people have been calling for that all along. Somehow the EU vote is going to some the Ireland problem? Have people completely forgotten recent history? I highly doubt it's going to happen.
Independent Scotland? Well that is more likely as they were close already and this could push them over the edge. The end of the U.S. UK special relationship? Doubtful.
Before people start assuming the worst (or best) we should probably let the dust settle a bit and see where the chips fall once the knee jerk reactions are over.
Well, look at what changed.
Ireland is in the EU. The are on the Euro. If the North gets [more] fuct economically, it would provide further impetus for unification. Every supporter of unification will now call for more votes and referendums on the matter.
The biggest argument against Scottish independence was that they couldn't make it economically and that potentially the EU wouldn't have them. Well, if they, too, get fuct by this economically, there's less downside to leaving and the EU might be more accepting if/once the "UK" leaves.
Opportunism? Maybe. But they both certainly have a better case than they did last week.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Rip wrote:Smile at us, pay us, pass us; but do not quite forget;
For we are the people of England, that never have spoken yet.
There is many a fat farmer that drinks less cheerfully,
There is many a free French peasant who is richer and sadder than we.
There are no folk in the whole world so helpless or so wise.
There is hunger in our bellies, there is laughter in our eyes;
You laugh at us and love us, both mugs and eyes are wet:
Only you do not know us. For we have not spoken yet.
The fine French kings came over in a flutter of flags and dames.
We liked their smiles and battles, but we never could say their names.
The blood ran red to Bosworth and the high French lords went down;
There was naught but a naked people under a naked crown.
And the eyes of the King's Servants turned terribly every way,
And the gold of the King's Servants rose higher every day.
They burnt the homes of the shaven men, that had been quaint and kind,
Till there was no bed in a monk's house, nor food that man could find.
The inns of God where no man paid, that were the wall of the weak.
The King's Servants ate them all. And still we did not speak.
And the face of the King's Servants grew greater than the King:
He tricked them, and they trapped him, and stood round him in a ring.
The new grave lords closed round him, that had eaten the abbey's fruits,
And the men of the new religion, with their bibles in their boots,
We saw their shoulders moving, to menace or discuss,
And some were pure and some were vile; but none took heed of us.
We saw the King as they killed him, and his face was proud and pale;
And a few men talked of freedom, while England talked of ale.
A war that we understood not came over the world and woke
Americans, Frenchmen, Irish; but we knew not the things they spoke.
They talked about rights and nature and peace and the people's reign:
And the squires, our masters, bade us fight; and scorned us never again.
Weak if we be for ever, could none condemn us then;
Men called us serfs and drudges; men knew that we were men.
In foam and flame at Trafalgar, on Albuera plains,
We did and died like lions, to keep ourselves in chains,
We lay in living ruins; firing and fearing not
The strange fierce face of the Frenchmen who knew for what they fought,
And the man who seemed to be more than a man we strained against and broke;
And we broke our own rights with him. And still we never spoke.
Our patch of glory ended; we never heard guns again.
But the squire seemed struck in the saddle; he was foolish, as if in pain,
He leaned on a staggering lawyer, he clutched a cringing Jew,
He was stricken; it may be, after all, he was stricken at Waterloo.
Or perhaps the shades of the shaven men, whose spoil is in his house,
Come back in shining shapes at last to spoil his last carouse:
We only know the last sad squires rode slowly towards the sea,
And a new people takes the land: and still it is not we.
They have given us into the hand of new unhappy lords,
Lords without anger or honour, who dare not carry their swords.
They fight by shuffling papers; they have bright dead alien eyes;
They look at our labour and laughter as a tired man looks at flies.
And the load of their loveless pity is worse than the ancient wrongs,
Their doors are shut in the evening; and they know no songs.
We hear men speaking for us of new laws strong and sweet,
Yet is there no man speaketh as we speak in the street.
It may be we shall rise the last as Frenchmen rose the first,
Our wrath come after Russia's wrath and our wrath be the worst.
It may be we are meant to mark with our riot and our rest
God's scorn for all men governing. It may be beer is best.
But we are the people of England; and we have not spoken yet.
Smile at us, pay us, pass us. But do not quite forget.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Yeah, a unified Ireland, an independent Scotland, and a pissed off London.
That's the makings for awesome.
The reactions are a bit knee jerk right now. United Ireland? Some people have been calling for that all along. Somehow the EU vote is going to some the Ireland problem? Have people completely forgotten recent history? I highly doubt it's going to happen.
Independent Scotland? Well that is more likely as they were close already and this could push them over the edge. The end of the U.S. UK special relationship? Doubtful.
Before people start assuming the worst (or best) we should probably let the dust settle a bit and see where the chips fall once the knee jerk reactions are over.
Well, look at what changed.
Ireland is in the EU. The are on the Euro. If the North gets [more] fuct economically, it would provide further impetus for unification. Every supporter of unification will now call for more votes and referendums on the matter.
The biggest argument against Scottish independence was that they couldn't make it economically and that potentially the EU wouldn't have them. Well, if they, too, get fuct by this economically, there's less downside to leaving and the EU might be more accepting if/once the "UK" leaves.
Opportunism? Maybe. But they both certainly have a better case than they did last week.
Sure it's possible. But those are both worst case scenarios for the UK. Hence my calling it a knee jerk reaction. It's probably not going to end up being the worst case or the best, but somewhere in between.
cheeba wrote:This was non-working and working-class poorer people making the decision to leave.
This was old people making the decision to leave over the objection of young people.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range