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Brexit

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El Guapo
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:05 pm

I think what malchior is really saying at the end of the day is that this whole thing is a shitshow, which is pretty undeniable.

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El Guapo
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:39 pm


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GreenGoo
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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:00 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:05 pm
I think what malchior is really saying at the end of the day is that this whole thing is a shitshow, which is pretty undeniable.
The US is currently a shit show. Does that mean your democracy is "totally broken"? Do you understand "totally broken" to mean "shit show" in that context?

Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I find extreme opinions to require *something* to base them on. Alternative interpretations of words aside, of course.

Similar to drumpf, the UK voted for this shit show. Similar to drumpf, most that were for Brexit are still for Brexit. It boggles the mind that people can look at the world and see something else entirely.

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:03 pm

malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:33 pm
Wow. This is slightly more than not liking the outcome of a process. It is observing that the outcome is completely bonkers. It is widely regarded as a complete shambles.
edit: Nevermind, I see stessier gets it.

Good enough.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Alefroth » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:32 pm

If the populace of a country can vote to flush their country down the toilet, something is broken.

We might start with allowing a simple majority to determine something so significant.

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:39 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:32 pm
If the populace of a country can vote to flush their country down the toilet, something is broken.
:roll:

But is it "totally broken"?

You know the referendum was non-binding, right? Like, none of this has to happen. There is no legal requirement for this to go forward. It could end today. Full stop. Well, however long it takes to tell the EU "we were just kidding".

Separately, a country's population should absolutely have the final word on the fate of the country. Without citizens, there is no country. It's not the other way around.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Alefroth » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:42 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:39 pm
Alefroth wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:32 pm
If the populace of a country can vote to flush their country down the toilet, something is broken.
:roll:

But is it "totally broken"?

You know the referendum was non-binding, right? Like, none of this has to happen. There is no legal requirement for this to go forward. It could end today. Full stop. Well, however long it takes to tell the EU "we were just kidding".

Separately, a country's population should absolutely have the final word on the fate of the country. Without citizens, there is no country. It's not the other way around.
Okay

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:04 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:32 pm
If the populace of a country can vote to flush their country down the toilet, something is broken.

We might start with allowing a simple majority to determine something so significant.
Yes - it was significantly stupid. Their system had all kinds of problems before that vote that led to that referendum. In fact, one big problem is their system has no escape mechanism that prevents radical change such as this vote. The US at least has that though those mechanisms have been abused. In a very real sense, the British system has very limited protection from populism. If one wanted to get to some root causes of this shit show there is one right there.

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:14 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:42 pm

Okay
So you did know? Then what's broken? The same thing that's broken with Congress?

Brexit is moronic. Let's not conflate an act of stupidity with the system of governance being "totally broken". They aren't the same thing.
Anyone who has ever designed a system knows that there is no such thing as leak proof. There isn't a system in existence that can't be destroyed by dedicated malefactors.

There's a big difference between "working as intended" vs "totally broken".

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:30 pm

There are two problems with Brexit. That the referendum occurred in the first place, and that the EU was notified without a plan in place.

Neither of those are from a totally broken system. That no plan can be agreed upon is the system working as expected.

What's broken is that this could all end today if someone would simply decide that it should end today.

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El Guapo
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:38 pm

This is an important and worthwhile discussion.

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:48 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:30 pm
Neither of those are from a totally broken system. That no plan can be agreed upon is the system working as expected.
Substitute 'sick' for 'broken' or whatever makes the point sink in for you. The point is the way much of the West is deciding its future is not working. And that it is 'working as intended' is frankly very debatable from many viewpoints. That multiple systems 'working as intended' are systemically leading to outcomes likely terrible to catastrophic for actual people's lives are not something to just shrug at. It isn't an 'extreme opinion' -- it is a cold hard reality that is coming for all of us.

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El Guapo
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:51 pm

I would argue that the system is Bjorked.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Blackhawk » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:54 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:32 pm
If the populace of a country can vote to flush their country down the toilet, something is broken.

We might start with allowing a simple majority to determine something so significant.
Which suggest that what's broken is the populace.

IE - humanity, in masses, is stupid. A majority of a populace is humanity in mass.
[This space left intentionally blank.]

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:29 pm

El Guapo wrote:I would argue that the system is Bjorked.
You’re thinking of Iceland.

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Alefroth
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Re: Brexit

Post by Alefroth » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:50 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:14 pm
So you did know?
I did not. I was surprised at that.
Brexit is moronic. Let's not conflate an act of stupidity with the system of governance being "totally broken".
I think a system that let's an act of stupidity dissolve a country (intentionally hyperbolic, I don't think Brexit will dissolve the UK) is broken, you think it's working as intended. I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this.

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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:50 pm

Okay.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Grifman » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:53 pm

malchior wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:48 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:30 pm
Neither of those are from a totally broken system. That no plan can be agreed upon is the system working as expected.
Substitute 'sick' for 'broken' or whatever makes the point sink in for you. The point is the way much of the West is deciding its future is not working. And that it is 'working as intended' is frankly very debatable from many viewpoints. That multiple systems 'working as intended' are systemically leading to outcomes likely terrible to catastrophic for actual people's lives are not something to just shrug at. It isn't an 'extreme opinion' -- it is a cold hard reality that is coming for all of us.
No system can prevent people from making bad decisions. During the Peloponnesian War the Athenians executed a group of admirals that had just won a significant naval victory because they had abandoned crewmen from ships that had been sunk due to a storm that had arisen after the battle. You might think that a mitigating circumstance but the democratic assembly thought otherwise and executed 6 of the 8 admirals that had won the victory. Two years later the Spartans destroyed the Athenian fleet in battle. With no fleet, Athens was starved out and lost the war. One could argue that the loss of six successful and experienced admirals might have contributed to that defeat. Athenian democracy worked as it had been designed but it could not prevent the people from making a foolish decision.

Interestingly enough, with parallels to BREXIT, soon afterwards, the Athenians regretted the decision and sought to bring to trial those who had brought the charges against the admirals. But it was too late for their navy - there was no way to replace those crucial leaders.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:07 pm

Today's news so far - May lost 2 ministers over her decision to reach out to Corbyn to try to find a path forward. This has been what she has been doggedly fighting against. She knew she faced a Tory crack up if she was more inclusive and now that her Premiership is basically on life support with 9 days to go to Armageddon (delayed 2nd edition!) she has finally faced reality. What a tremendous bungler.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Alefroth » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:55 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:54 pm
Alefroth wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:32 pm
If the populace of a country can vote to flush their country down the toilet, something is broken.

We might start with allowing a simple majority to determine something so significant.
Which suggest that what's broken is the populace.

IE - humanity, in masses, is stupid. A majority of a populace is humanity in mass.
Can't argue with that.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:58 pm

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals, and you know it."

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:13 am

CNBC
In another nail-biting vote in the U.K.'s Parliament, lawmakers voted by a majority of just one to force Prime Minister Theresa May to seek an extension to the Brexit process and avoid a no-deal departure.

Members of Parliament (MPs) voted for the draft legislation on Wednesday evening to prevent a shock no-deal exit on April 12 (the date of a new deadline granted by the EU) by 313 votes to 312. The bill will need to be approved by the upper house of parliament, the House of Lords, to become law.

Despite last night's vote in favor of a delay to Brexit, it's far from certain that the EU will grant the U.K. an extension when European leaders meet next Wednesday, April 10, at an emergency summit dedicated to Brexit.

The U.K. was originally meant to leave the EU on March 29 but granted more time by the EU. Ahead of the U.K. Parliament's vote last night, the European Commission President Jean-Claude reiterated that April 12 was the final date for the approval of the Brexit deal and that no short extension would be possible.

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:33 am

No one can know how this is going to play out now - but the histrionics are already starting to ratchet up.

Exhibit 1: British soldiers use photo of Corbyn for target practice.

Exhibit 2: Attempted rail sabotage linked to Brexit.
The Telegraph wrote:British Transport Police (BTP) said the two obstructions occurred on the railway near Yaxley, Cambridgeshire on March 21 and Netherfield in Nottinghamshire on March 27.

Police said staff at Network Rail identified the devices, which were "intended to cause disruption" to train services, and the saboteurs had "put their life at risk" to plant the obstructions.

A note reportedly attached to the device read: "Government betrayal. Leave means leave. We will bring this country to its knees if we don't leave."

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Re: Brexit

Post by GungHo » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:33 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:50 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:14 pm
So you did know?
I did not. I was surprised at that.
Brexit is moronic. Let's not conflate an act of stupidity with the system of governance being "totally broken".
I think a system that let's an act of stupidity dissolve a country (intentionally hyperbolic, I don't think Brexit will dissolve the UK) is broken, you think it's working as intended. I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this.

I think a system that allows a vote that can be ignored is pretty well fooked. Why did they have a vote if it can be ignored? And who gets to decide if this vote or that vote gets to be ignored? Do they have another vote on that?
That sounds like a broken system to me.

But trump is proving America's system isn't any better. Brexit and trump are the hackers you hire to break into your system so you find the weaknesses and then go back and fix them after you've paid the hackers to leave. Cept they aren't leaving....😕
OR
cry in a corner that the world has come to a point where you have to pay for imaginary shit.

-Hiccup

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GreenGoo
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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:25 pm

It's a referendum. It's basically polling the electorate.

It was a mistake to have it and it was a mistake to treat the slim majority as a mandate to make it happen.

That said, major politicians were pushing hard, had support and were stirring shit up in ways that were problematic. Ignoring the referendum results would have created a whole other set of problems, most of which would have been problems for politicians, rather than the country as a whole.

Me or the country that elected me, which do I flush down the toilet? That they could claim "this is what the people want" probably made it easier.

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:34 pm

Reports are that May-Labour talks have broken down as May has refused any changes to the political declaration. Therefore, no deal crash out chances are very high right now. Tusk allegedly talked about a year extension but that sounds unpalatable to both the UK and EU. Things may get real shitty next week.

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Re: Brexit

Post by em2nought » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:46 pm

malchior wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:33 am
No one can know how this is going to play out now - but the histrionics are already starting to ratchet up.


Exhibit 2: Attempted rail sabotage linked to Brexit.
The Telegraph wrote:British Transport Police (BTP) said the two obstructions occurred on the railway near Yaxley, Cambridgeshire on March 21 and Netherfield in Nottinghamshire on March 27.

Police said staff at Network Rail identified the devices, which were "intended to cause disruption" to train services, and the saboteurs had "put their life at risk" to plant the obstructions.

A note reportedly attached to the device read: "Government betrayal. Leave means leave. We will bring this country to its knees if we don't leave."
Somebody better check on Jussie's alibi for this one. :wink:
Waiting for the tide to bring me a sail.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:54 pm

WaPo
British Prime Minister Theresa May said Friday that her nation ... will likely hold elections next month for an E.U. legislature that she is desperate to quit.
...
“It is in the interests of neither the United Kingdom as a departing member state, nor the European Union as a whole, that the United Kingdom holds elections to the European Parliament,” May wrote Friday in a letter to European Council President Donald Tusk, announcing her grudging decision to prepare for the elections anyway.
...
Now she has proposed a delay until June 30. That’s two days before the new European Parliament will sit for the first time, which would render the entire election a meaningless exercise. She said that if Britain manages to ratify a divorce deal before late May, she would seek to depart from the bloc more quickly and skip the vote.

But policymakers in London and the rest of Europe expect that Britain will end up with a much longer extension after E.U. leaders gather on Wednesday to decide what to do. Tusk has proposed a year-long “flextension” that could end early if British leaders settle on a divorce approach in the meantime, according to diplomats familiar with the discussions.
Image

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:02 pm

I dont get what a year buys. May will just continue to flop around dead. She is safe from a vote of no confidence into the end of the year and doesn't have to hold a general election for 2 more years. Will she hold one to address the reality that there is no path forward whilst events favor Labour? Seems unlikely considering her track record.

Another interesting wrinkle is Rees-Mogg is applying pressure to EU to get a no deal exit. He is threatening that if they hold EU elections in the UK then they will unleash an obstructionist policy to cause as much damage as possible. Can he deliver on his threats is likely being weighed in the halls of the EU at the moment.

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Re: Brexit

Post by em2nought » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:29 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:54 pm
Image
The UK had such great commercials which they showed before films at the cinema. I wonder if they're having fun with BREXIT?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwMScerqMQk
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Re: Brexit

Post by Alefroth » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:27 pm

em2nought wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:46 pm
malchior wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:33 am
No one can know how this is going to play out now - but the histrionics are already starting to ratchet up.


Exhibit 2: Attempted rail sabotage linked to Brexit.
The Telegraph wrote:British Transport Police (BTP) said the two obstructions occurred on the railway near Yaxley, Cambridgeshire on March 21 and Netherfield in Nottinghamshire on March 27.

Police said staff at Network Rail identified the devices, which were "intended to cause disruption" to train services, and the saboteurs had "put their life at risk" to plant the obstructions.

A note reportedly attached to the device read: "Government betrayal. Leave means leave. We will bring this country to its knees if we don't leave."
Somebody better check on Jussie's alibi for this one. :wink:
I don't get it.

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Re: Brexit

Post by em2nought » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:38 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:27 pm
em2nought wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:46 pm
malchior wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:33 am
No one can know how this is going to play out now - but the histrionics are already starting to ratchet up.


Exhibit 2: Attempted rail sabotage linked to Brexit.
The Telegraph wrote:British Transport Police (BTP) said the two obstructions occurred on the railway near Yaxley, Cambridgeshire on March 21 and Netherfield in Nottinghamshire on March 27.

Police said staff at Network Rail identified the devices, which were "intended to cause disruption" to train services, and the saboteurs had "put their life at risk" to plant the obstructions.

A note reportedly attached to the device read: "Government betrayal. Leave means leave. We will bring this country to its knees if we don't leave."
Somebody better check on Jussie's alibi for this one. :wink:
I don't get it.
Another act designed to make a "group" of people look bad is what I was inferring.
Waiting for the tide to bring me a sail.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Alefroth » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:31 pm

I guess that's why it doesn't make sense.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue May 14, 2019 5:56 pm

BBC
A bill implementing the Brexit deal will be introduced in the first week of June, the government has confirmed.

Downing Street said this was "imperative" if the UK was to leave the EU before MPs' summer recess.

The government also said talks with Labour would continue on Wednesday in an attempt to agree a way through the Brexit impasse.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri May 17, 2019 1:23 pm

WaPo
Brexit talks between Britain’s two main political parties collapsed in a heap of finger-pointing Friday, with opposition Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn saying the “weakness and instability” of Prime Minister Theresa May’s government had damaged negotiations.

With her own Conservative Party lawmakers openly demanding a timetable for her departure, not a day goes by without Britain’s political class guessing when May will leave office. Will it be next month? Or July? Or October?

May has promised to offer a date soon.
...
May said this week she will seek an unprecedented fourth vote on her withdrawal treaty — you read that number right — in early June. The first three attempts ended in failure.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Drazzil » Fri May 17, 2019 3:46 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 1:23 pm
WaPo
Brexit talks between Britain’s two main political parties collapsed in a heap of finger-pointing Friday, with opposition Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn saying the “weakness and instability” of Prime Minister Theresa May’s government had damaged negotiations.

With her own Conservative Party lawmakers openly demanding a timetable for her departure, not a day goes by without Britain’s political class guessing when May will leave office. Will it be next month? Or July? Or October?

May has promised to offer a date soon.
...
May said this week she will seek an unprecedented fourth vote on her withdrawal treaty — you read that number right — in early June. The first three attempts ended in failure.
Why don't they ask for another exit vote? It's pretty clear that Britons didn't know what they were getting into. Hold another vote.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed May 22, 2019 12:00 pm

BBC
British Steel has been placed in compulsory liquidation, putting 5,000 jobs at risk and endangering 20,000 in the supply chain.

The move follows a breakdown in rescue talks between the government and the company's owner, Greybull.

The Government's Official Receiver has taken control of the company as part of the liquidation process.

The search for a buyer for British Steel has already begun. In the meantime, it will trade normally.

The Official Receiver said British Steel Ltd had been wound up in the High Court and the immediate priority was to continue safe operation of the site.

The company was transferred to the Official Receiver because British Steel, its shareholders and the government were not able to, or would not, support the business. That meant the company did not have to funds to pay for an administration.
...
British Steel's more recent troubles have been linked to a slump in orders from European customers ‎due to uncertainty over the Brexit process.

It has has also struggled with the weakness of the pound since the EU referendum in June 2016 and the escalating US-China trade war.
...
Labour's shadow business secretary, Rebecca Long Bailey, called for the company to be nationalised.

She said: "The government must act quickly to save this strategically important industry and the livelihoods and communities of those who work in it, by bringing British Steel into public ownership.''

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu May 23, 2019 12:23 pm

BI
Prime Minister Theresa May has shelved plans to publish her Brexit legislation this week after senior members of her Cabinet withdrew their support for her plans.

The prime minister had planned to publish the Withdrawal Agreement Bill on Friday ahead of a vote on it at the start of June but will now seek to rewrite it.

A spokesman for May on Thursday said she was "listening to the concerns of colleagues" over the bill and "would have further discussions today."
...
The leader of the House of Commons, Andrea Leadsom, resigned on Wednesday evening in protest over the contents of the bill.

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Re: Brexit

Post by hepcat » Thu May 23, 2019 12:59 pm

The UK is fucked. They let their version of the Tea Party take control for a bit, and those idiots steered them right onto the rocks. Unfortunately, I doubt anyone will want to admit they screwed up, so they'll continue down this road until they're so financially sunk there's a full on revolt.
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Re: Brexit

Post by GreenGoo » Thu May 23, 2019 3:50 pm

hepcat wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 12:59 pm
The UK is fucked. They let their version of the Tea Party take control for a bit, and those idiots steered them right onto the rocks.
It is my understanding that the conservatives (not the UK's version of the Tea Party), as part of their campaigning, promised to hold a vote. When they were voted in, they were pressured to fulfill their campaign promise, which they moronically did. And here we are.

A pretty reasonable government did a pretty unreasonable thing (because they thought there was no way it could back fire) and then instead of pretending it never happened (the referendum was not binding) are trying to implement the "will of the people". Less than 52% of the people who voted decided that the UK had had a nice run, but now was a good time to cause unparalleled chaos.

Doesn't change your basic premise though, although hopefully it clarifies a bit and shows how stupid this whole thing is when they could simply pretend it never happened.

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