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Brexit

For discussion of religion and politics

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El Guapo
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo »

So why would turkeys be in the position of preventing Christmas?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur »

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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LordMortis
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Re: Brexit

Post by LordMortis »

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:03 pm
So why would turkeys be in the position of preventing Christmas?
My instinct would be to say that the turkeys are to be slaughtered for traditional Christmas dinner and the people will be happy and well fed. But the word even betrays that interpretation. So I got nothing.

It does make me wonder we sang "Christmas is coming and the goose is getting fat" The Internet say the Brits have been eating turkey for X Mas for centuries.

http://home.bt.com/lifestyle/food/food- ... 4219321074

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Re: Brexit

Post by Max Peck »

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:03 pm
So why would turkeys be in the position of preventing Christmas?
Christmas is the oncoming election. He's saying that the Members of Parliament that are blocking an immediate election (the turkeys) won't survive the election once it inevitably arrives.
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El Guapo
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo »

Do people eat a lot of turkey at Christmas? I thought ham was the big Christmas dish.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur »

66% of Brits do turkey at Chrimbo.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Kraken »

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:39 pm
Do people eat a lot of turkey at Christmas? I thought ham was the big Christmas dish.
We have nachos on Tgiving and meat loaf on xmas. We're rebels.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur »

I go for Italian on Cinco de Mayo.

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Jaymann
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jaymann »

I eat French food to celebrate La Retraite.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur »

Jaymann wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:55 pm
I eat French food to celebrate La Retraite.
I hear it's a decent Catholic School for Girls.

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Re: Brexit

Post by hepcat »

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:03 pm
So why would turkeys be in the position of preventing Christmas?
Your average turkey in England is well over 5 feet in height and can weigh up to 20 stone. If they want to stop a holiday, they can certainly do it. Fun fact: everything I’ve learned about turkeys I’ve learned while drunk.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Remus West »

hepcat wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:06 pm
verything I’ve learned I’ve learned while drunk.
Fixed?

On a side note, there are more and more wild turkey groups (herds? clusters?) around my area. Those birds are BIG. We had one male that lived on the corner near us that was blocking the road in front of my car one day. I got out to shoo it away. When it straightened it's neck it was taller than me (6'1")!!
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Re: Brexit

Post by Z-Corn »

A few years ago I was stopped at a light around the corner from my house and a big tom ran out of the bushes and starting pecking the side of my Jeep.

He could see his reflection and thought he needed to fight a rival.

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Remus West
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Re: Brexit

Post by Remus West »

Z-Corn wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:20 am
A few years ago I was stopped at a light around the corner from my house and a big tom ran out of the bushes and starting pecking the side of my Jeep.

He could see his reflection and thought he needed to fight a rival.
The one I mentioned eventually got hit and killed doing something similar. It was very sad as he had become a sort of neighborhood mascot. People put up memorials at the corner when it happened.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

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Jaymann
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Re: Brexit

Post by Jaymann »

Z-Corn wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:20 am

He could see his reflection and thought he needed to fight a rival.
I thought you were talking about Boris.
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Z-Corn
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Re: Brexit

Post by Z-Corn »

Jaymann wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:16 am
Z-Corn wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:20 am

He could see his reflection and thought he needed to fight a rival.
I thought you were talking about Boris.
Naw, you can tell by looking at him he's never seen his reflection.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Alefroth »

Z-Corn wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:16 pm
Jaymann wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:16 am
Z-Corn wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:20 am

He could see his reflection and thought he needed to fight a rival.
I thought you were talking about Boris.
Naw, you can tell by looking at him he's never seen his reflection.
:clap:

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Re: Brexit

Post by Biyobi »

Remus West wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:05 am

On a side note, there are more and more wild turkey groups (herds? clusters?) around my area.
I believe group of wild turkey are called a "case".

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Re: Brexit

Post by em2nought »

Jaymann wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:16 am
Z-Corn wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:20 am

He could see his reflection and thought he needed to fight a rival.
I thought you were talking about Boris.
Trump should start some Lend-Lease to Boris. :mrgreen:
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Re: Brexit

Post by Zarathud »

El Guapo wrote:So why would turkeys be in the position of preventing Christmas?
tryptophan and food poisoning, duh
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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur »

CNBC
Prime Minister Boris Johnson will on Wednesday unveil his final Brexit offer to the European Union and make clear that if Brussels does not engage with the proposal, Britain will not negotiate further and will leave on Oct. 31.

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El Guapo
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo »

Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:59 pm
CNBC
Prime Minister Boris Johnson will on Wednesday unveil his final Brexit offer to the European Union and make clear that if Brussels does not engage with the proposal, Britain will not negotiate further and will leave on Oct. 31.
Isn't he now legally required to seek an extension over a no deal, though?

malchior
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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:41 am
Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:59 pm
CNBC
Prime Minister Boris Johnson will on Wednesday unveil his final Brexit offer to the European Union and make clear that if Brussels does not engage with the proposal, Britain will not negotiate further and will leave on Oct. 31.
Isn't he now legally required to seek an extension over a no deal, though?
Yeah - he has hinted previously that he might ignore the law on that. This is obviously more explicit and I'm sure is going to draw a lot of scorn.

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El Guapo
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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:46 am
El Guapo wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:41 am
Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:59 pm
CNBC
Prime Minister Boris Johnson will on Wednesday unveil his final Brexit offer to the European Union and make clear that if Brussels does not engage with the proposal, Britain will not negotiate further and will leave on Oct. 31.
Isn't he now legally required to seek an extension over a no deal, though?
Yeah - he has hinted previously that he might ignore the law on that. This is obviously more explicit and I'm sure is going to draw a lot of scorn.
I wonder what the legal remedy for that would be. Given the Parliamentary prorogation (or whatever that's called) decision by the UK Supreme Court, I would think it reasonably likely that they would be willing to issue some sort of hostile opinion if Johnson refused to comply with the extension mandate.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur »

BBC: Can a no-deal Brexit still happen?
The law states that it is the prime minister himself who would have to request an extension directly to the president of the European Council.

It even includes the exact wording of the letter.

So, theoretically, Mr Johnson could refuse to write or sign that letter. But that would almost certainly lead to more court action.

There have been suggestions that Mr Johnson could follow the law by sending the letter - but send another letter setting out his political policy to leave on 31 October.
...
Even if Mr Johnson agrees to write the letter, it would still have to be accepted by all of the other EU governments.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur »

WaPo
European policymakers said Thursday that a new Brexit proposal from British Prime Minister Boris Johnson was unworkable, heightening the prospects of a chaotic British departure from the European Union within weeks.

Although leaders, politicians and negotiators did not dismiss Johnson’s plan out of hand, they made clear the current offer would not win support from the 27 countries that need to sign off on any withdrawal deal, and they were downbeat about it serving as the basis for serious negotiations.
...
Johnson’s most substantive plan so far, presented to E.U. leaders Wednesday, tries to address issues in Northern Ireland — the major barrier to a withdrawal agreement. But his written proposal crosses several E.U. red lines. Some policymakers assessed that it would be more damaging to the European Union than the economic and political instability that could come with an abrupt “no-deal” Brexit without any transition period to buffer the way.
...
Many European leaders appear to be deferring — for now — to Ireland because of how directly it would be affected by the terms of a Brexit withdrawal.

“There are elements of this proposal that simply will not be part of any deal,” Irish deputy leader Simon Coveney said Thursday.
...
Although British Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay had admonished that the ball was in the European Union’s court, Bertaud emphasized, “This work is for the U.K. to do, not the other way around.”
:pop:

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Re: Brexit

Post by hepcat »

Looks like the sun will be setting even faster on the British empire soon.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur »

BBC
Boris Johnson will send a letter to the EU asking for a Brexit delay if no deal is agreed by 19 October, according to government papers submitted to a Scottish court.

The document was revealed as campaigners sought a ruling forcing the PM to comply with the law.

Their QC said the submission contradicted statements by the prime minister last week in Parliament.

But Downing Street said the UK would still be leaving the EU on 31 October.
...
A senior Downing Street source said: "The government will comply with the Benn Act, which only imposes a very specific narrow duty concerning Parliament's letter requesting a delay - drafted by an unknown subset of MPs and pro-EU campaigners - and which can be interpreted in different ways.

"But the government is not prevented by the Act from doing other things that cause no delay, including other communications, private and public.

"People will have to wait to see how this is reconciled. The government is making its true position on delay known privately in Europe and this will become public soon."
...
Mr Johnson has said he would rather be "dead in a ditch" than ask for a delay.

In a tweet on Friday afternoon, he said: "New deal or no deal - but no delay."

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Re: Brexit

Post by malchior »

One way to interpret that craziness is they go to the EU and explain that they don't want the delay. I have to think that the EU knows this is insane so I have to think they will cook up some leverage. This is a really bad timeline.

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Re: Brexit

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:10 pm
One way to interpret that craziness is they go to the EU and explain that they don't want the delay. I have to think that the EU knows this is insane so I have to think they will cook up some leverage. This is a really bad timeline.
So they need to send a letter requesting a delay. Strictly speaking they can theoretically do other things that impede the delay, possibly including sending a subsequent letter saying that they don't want a delay. Some interesting questions - if the EU immediately grants the delay upon receiving the letter, I would assume that delay would still be binding.

Also if they are too cute in what they do, I assume a court would regard them as being in defiance of a reasonable interpretation of the law.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur »

BBC
A Scottish judge has dismissed a move to force Boris Johnson to comply with a law aimed at avoiding a no-deal Brexit.

Campaigners had wanted to ensure that the prime minister would write to the EU to request an extension if no deal is in place by 19 October.

They argued that statements made by the government showed that it could not be trusted.

But Lord Pentland said there could be "no doubt" that the prime minister had agreed to abide by the law.

As a result, he said there was no need for "coercive orders" against the UK government or against the prime minister.

And he said it would be "destructive of one of the core principles of constitutional propriety and of the mutual trust that is the bedrock of the relationship between the court and the Crown" if Mr Johnson reneged on his assurances to the court.
...
In his ruling, Lord Pentland said the UK government had accepted it must "comply fully" with the act and would not seek to "frustrate its purpose".

As a result, he said there was "no proper basis" on which the court could decide that the government would fail to deliver on that undertaking.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Isgrimnur »

BBC
A No 10 source has said a Brexit deal is "essentially impossible" after a call between the PM and Angela Merkel.

Boris Johnson and the German chancellor spoke earlier about the proposals he had put forward to the EU - but the source said she made clear a deal based on them was "overwhelmingly unlikely".

Mrs Merkel's office said it would not comment on "private" conversations.

But the BBC's Adam Fleming said there was "scepticism" within the EU that Mrs Merkel would have used such language.

And the EU's top official warned the UK against a "stupid blame game".

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Re: Brexit

Post by Jolor »

If only - at least ONE - of the previous PMs had been able to secure a "deal" with the EU for Leave, to at least provide a framework; a point to build on / move forward from. But, alas.

And, sadly, Stay was never supported by the populace.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Blackhawk »

The passengers are bickering over who gets the nicest lifeboat while the ship is sinking.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Alefroth »

I mentioned Brexit to a co-worker today and she had never heard the term. I wonder how common it is to have absolutely zero interest in the world at large.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Kraken »

Alefroth wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:41 am
I mentioned Brexit to a co-worker today and she had never heard the term. I wonder how common it is to have absolutely zero interest in the world at large.
A quote that I recently saw from a woman who doesn't pay attention to politics clarified this for me. To her, politics is like a sport that she isn't interested in. As someone who is keenly interested in politics, but pays zero attention to any form of sportsball, I understood that. Sure it's a false equivalence; politics ultimately affect everyone's life, whereas sportsball affects nothing -- but in terms of perception, sports is immediate and clear and thrilling and easy to follow, while politics is long-term and opaque and boring and complicated.

Anyway, seeing those two things equated gave me an inkling how somebody can be as oblivious to politics as I'm oblivious to sportsball.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Blackhawk »

As someone who took years (too many years) to start paying attention to politics, I have to say that the biggest problem is that it doesn't make sense. The comparison would be more like a sport that had a massive, detailed rulebook, and everyone had to follow that rulebook. You look at the politicsball and you read the rulebook - ok, overly complicated, but you get it. Except that nobody does what's in the book. Each person writes their own rulebook that is designed to make it look like they're following the official one, then pays the referees to argue on their behalf about how their rulebook is actually the right one.

How do you learn to follow that?
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Re: Brexit

Post by stessier »

Blackhawk wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:07 am
As someone who took years (too many years) to start paying attention to politics, I have to say that the biggest problem is that it doesn't make sense. The comparison would be more like a sport that had a massive, detailed rulebook, and everyone had to follow that rulebook. You look at the politicsball and you read the rulebook - ok, overly complicated, but you get it. Except that nobody does what's in the book. Each person writes their own rulebook that is designed to make it look like they're following the official one, then pays the referees to argue on their behalf about how their rulebook is actually the right one.

How do you learn to follow that?
Also, there is no "winning" or even permanence to any decision. Anything can change at any time if you get enough people to agree with you. It's pretty nuts.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Blackhawk »

I think the hardest part is that everything you hear is suspect. The reporting - for both sides - is dishonest. Claims made while campaigning aren't true, and aren't expected to be followed. Public statements are spun so much that they're completely irrelevant. Official press conferences are just advertising blitzes for one side. Explanations of systems are filled with bias. Motivations are hidden.

If you decide to take an interest in politics, where do you get your information in that kind of environment? How can you have confidence that you're learning what's real and not just being manipulated?
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Re: Brexit

Post by Alefroth »

Kraken wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:40 am
Alefroth wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:41 am
I mentioned Brexit to a co-worker today and she had never heard the term. I wonder how common it is to have absolutely zero interest in the world at large.
A quote that I recently saw from a woman who doesn't pay attention to politics clarified this for me. To her, politics is like a sport that she isn't interested in. As someone who is keenly interested in politics, but pays zero attention to any form of sportsball, I understood that. Sure it's a false equivalence; politics ultimately affect everyone's life, whereas sportsball affects nothing -- but in terms of perception, sports is immediate and clear and thrilling and easy to follow, while politics is long-term and opaque and boring and complicated.

Anyway, seeing those two things equated gave me an inkling how somebody can be as oblivious to politics as I'm oblivious to sportsball.
I can see the parallels and I'm nearly as apathetic about sports, yet I still can't avoid seeing the big stories while I consume other news. I can't imagine the sort of media isolation needed to never have heard of Brexit until now.

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