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Abortion news and discussion

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El Guapo
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by El Guapo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:34 am

noxiousdog wrote:
Moliere wrote:Joe Rogan talking to Colin Moriarty about abortion. Although pro-choice he understands the need for an honest conversation about what abortion really is and how difficult the issue can be to discuss.
I love this. I get so aggravated about how often pro-choice individuals want to ignore the messy parts.
To be fair, everyone wants to ignore the messy parts of things that they are in favor of.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by PLW » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:53 am


It only raises the death toll if they wouldn't have had the abortion without Harvey, which does not seem to be the case from the article.
Miller said dozens of women likely missed previously scheduled abortion-related appointments due to the storm. For others who may have lost everything in the flooding, "it changes their situation," she said.
But I agree that if there are women who were so impoverished by the hurricane that they feel it necessary to abort a fetus that they would otherwise have carried to term, it is a real tragedy, for those women.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Moliere » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:55 am

PLW wrote:But I agree that if there are women who were so impoverished by the hurricane that they feel it necessary to abort a fetus that they would otherwise have carried to term, it is a real tragedy, for those women.
Not a tragedy for the baby?
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by PLW » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:58 am

Moliere wrote:
PLW wrote:But I agree that if there are women who were so impoverished by the hurricane that they feel it necessary to abort a fetus that they would otherwise have carried to term, it is a real tragedy, for those women.
Not a tragedy for the baby?
Of course it's terrible for the baby. I thought that was obvious.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Moliere » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:58 am

Abortion Access in Missouri Is Getting Easier, Thanks to Planned Parenthood and Satanists

A headline sure to incite all the god fearing Christians. :pop:
Missouri’s recent stroke of good fortune in the reproductive rights realm may have to do with intervention from the fiery underworld. On Monday, the Satanic Temple argued in a Missouri court that the state’s abortion restrictions violate worshippers’ rights to free religious practice. The organization is challenging two Missouri laws: one that requires patients to look at unscientific anti-abortion propaganda and another that forces them to wait 72 hours between their initial consultations and a second appointments for their abortions. Satanic Temple members argue that their religion prizes rational, independent thought and that forcing Satanists to read anti-abortion pamphlets and “consider a religious proposition with which they do not agree” during the 72-hour waiting period constitutes a violation of their beliefs.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:34 pm

Moliere wrote:
PLW wrote:But I agree that if there are women who were so impoverished by the hurricane that they feel it necessary to abort a fetus that they would otherwise have carried to term, it is a real tragedy, for those women.
Not a tragedy for the baby?
There is no baby.

Haven't we been over this? I feel like this has been discussed before. What year is it?

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Rip » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:35 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Moliere wrote:
PLW wrote:But I agree that if there are women who were so impoverished by the hurricane that they feel it necessary to abort a fetus that they would otherwise have carried to term, it is a real tragedy, for those women.
Not a tragedy for the baby?
There is no baby.

Haven't we been over this? I feel like this has been discussed before. What year is it?
Until you cause the loss of one......

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:39 pm

We also look at lost future earnings for lawsuits. That doesn't mean the earnings exist. That's what future means.

Feel free to reconcile the 2 notions in your legal system, because I agree, it's a bit schizo.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Moliere » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:39 pm

Rip wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:There is no baby.

Haven't we been over this? I feel like this has been discussed before. What year is it?
Until you cause the loss of one......
I am not able to research the legal aspect, but if a woman is hit/kicked, causing her to have a miscarriage will that person be charged only with assault or also murder/manslaughter?
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:41 pm

Depends.

And the answer is not always based on solid, principled legal positions.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Rip » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:44 pm

GreenGoo wrote:Depends.

And the answer is not always based on solid, principled legal positions.
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fet ... -laws.aspx
Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia;and>Wisconsin>. At least 23 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*).
It would seem a consensus would be that causing the death of a fetus is homicide.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:45 pm

Like I said, it depends.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Rip » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:47 pm

GreenGoo wrote:Like I said, it depends.
Sure, if by depends you mean in a vast majority of cases.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:49 pm

TIL 76% is a vast majority.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:49 pm

Apparently the US only has 38 states now.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by coopasonic » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:54 pm

Rip wrote: It would seem a consensus would be that causing the death of a fetus is homicide.
That isn't really consensus. The contents of those laws vary wildly. Many applying only to a "quick" child (appears to be 15-16th week, so second trimester) and some only impacting sentencing for crimes against a pregnant women, not defining the fetus as a separate legal entity.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Paingod » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:57 pm

I'm okay with the conflicting ideas of hitting a woman hard enough to force a miscarriage at any gestation stage being homicide and a woman being allowed to abort a mass of cells if she chooses. In the first instance, she was looking forward to that clump of cells developing to a point of viability and probably dreamed of a long, happy future with it - hence, a life was stolen from her. In the second, she wasn't.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by ImLawBoy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:58 pm

Paingod wrote:I'm okay with the conflicting ideas of hitting a woman hard enough to force a miscarriage at any gestation stage being homicide and a woman being allowed to abort a mass of cells if she chooses. In the first instance, she was looking forward to that clump of cells developing to a point of viability and probably dreamed of a long, happy future with it - hence, a life was stolen from her. In the second, she wasn't.
But what if the woman was hit on her way to the abortion clinic???
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Moliere » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:02 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Paingod wrote:I'm okay with the conflicting ideas of hitting a woman hard enough to force a miscarriage at any gestation stage being homicide and a woman being allowed to abort a mass of cells if she chooses. In the first instance, she was looking forward to that clump of cells developing to a point of viability and probably dreamed of a long, happy future with it - hence, a life was stolen from her. In the second, she wasn't.
But what if the woman was hit on her way to the abortion clinic???
:lol:
Ok, that caused a guilty chuckle from me.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:11 pm

Paingod wrote:I'm okay with the conflicting ideas of hitting a woman hard enough to force a miscarriage at any gestation stage being homicide and a woman being allowed to abort a mass of cells if she chooses. In the first instance, she was looking forward to that clump of cells developing to a point of viability and probably dreamed of a long, happy future with it - hence, a life was stolen from her. In the second, she wasn't.
It's hard to make principled laws based on how each individual victim feels about the crime.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Rip » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:14 pm

GreenGoo wrote:Apparently the US only has 38 states now.
More accurately it is one country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Vi ... olence_Act

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes an embryo or fetus in utero as a legal victim, if they are injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb".

:whistle:

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:26 pm

I'm not even a little surprised. The increase in pressure to charge a separate crime when a pregnant woman loses her pregnancy has been growing in direct proportion to the lack of progress of the anti-abortionist movement. It's an easy win because no one, ever, has survived politically by saying that a woman losing her developing fetus was "not a big deal".

It's been decades in the making.

Whistle all you like, a separate murder charge is a recent thing as far as law goes, and prior to that it would happen at random if you could get a judge to agree. Sometimes these would be overturned on appeal. Sometimes the case was in a baptist state in which case you'd be lucky not to get the death penalty for knocking a woman over with your shopping cart, if she lost her pregnancy.

While I understand Paingod's feelings, and share them, I do NOT want law based on how I feel about something. Either that clump of cells is just a clump of cells, or it's a human being. It can't be both at the same time, and you can't base one aspect of the law on it being true in one set of circumstances and not true in another.

Separate murder charges chip away at the legality of abortion, while providing no additional justice. Laws already existed to handle injury and murder of the mother. When you have laws on the books for the murder of arms, legs or eyeballs, then we can talk about murder of a zygote.

This migration to new and separate murder charges is a weakening of the legal system. You don't have free speech laws based on how you feel about the speech, and you shouldn't have murder charges based on how you feel about the cells growing in a woman's uterus.

But hey, you can't get everything right.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:32 pm

Rip wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:Apparently the US only has 38 states now.
More accurately it is one country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Vi ... olence_Act

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes an embryo or fetus in utero as a legal victim, if they are injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb".

:whistle:
It has to be a federal crime as a precursor to its application. Mere felonious assault doesn't cut it. Now if it's a pregnant nuclear inspector, you've got a case.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Moliere » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:33 pm

GreenGoo wrote:Either that clump of cells is just a clump of cells, or it's a human being.
Is there an objective line that can be drawn for when the clump of cells becomes human? Saying abortions are a-ok in the first 12 weeks seems arbitrary. Viability is a moving target as technology improves.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:36 pm

Moliere wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:Either that clump of cells is just a clump of cells, or it's a human being.
Is there an objective line that can be drawn for when the clump of cells becomes human? Saying abortions are a-ok in the first 12 weeks seems arbitrary. Viability is a moving target as technology improves.
As usual, the answer is "SCIENCE!".

Talk to a biologist.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by gilraen » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:42 pm

Rip wrote:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fet ... -laws.aspx
Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia;and>Wisconsin>. At least 23 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*).
It would seem a consensus would be that causing the death of a fetus is homicide.
The way they present it - their verbiage - is misleading. I know for a fact that Colorado does *not* have a law that would consider a fetus a separate victim in a homicide (even if the woman is far along in the pregnancy where the fetus is completely viable). The reason I know that is because we had this big case last year, where the unborn baby died (the victim was 7 months pregnant). But the attacker could not be charged with murder - only attempted murder.
What Colorado laws really specify is making the victim's pregnancy an aggravating factor in the crime and dictating harsher sentences - but the only victim on the books is the woman, not the unborn child.
For a well-respected non-partisan organization, NCSL really plays fast-and-loose with the legal definitions on their website.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Rip » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:16 pm

gilraen wrote:
Rip wrote:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fet ... -laws.aspx
Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia;and>Wisconsin>. At least 23 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*).
It would seem a consensus would be that causing the death of a fetus is homicide.
The way they present it - their verbiage - is misleading. I know for a fact that Colorado does *not* have a law that would consider a fetus a separate victim in a homicide (even if the woman is far along in the pregnancy where the fetus is completely viable). The reason I know that is because we had this big case last year, where the unborn baby died (the victim was 7 months pregnant). But the attacker could not be charged with murder - only attempted murder.
What Colorado laws really specify is making the victim's pregnancy an aggravating factor in the crime and dictating harsher sentences - but the only victim on the books is the woman, not the unborn child.
For a well-respected non-partisan organization, NCSL really plays fast-and-loose with the legal definitions on their website.
It isn't that misleading at all.

From the Colorado listing.
Colo. Rev. Stat. §18-1.3-401 (13) specifies that a court shall sentence a defendant convicted of committing specified offenses against a pregnant woman, if the defendant knew or reasonably should have known that the victim was pregnant, to a term of at least the midpoint, but not more than twice the maximum, of the presumptive range for the punishment of the offense.

Colo. Rev. Stat. §18-1.3-501 (6) establishes that a court shall sentence a defendant convicted of assault in the third degree to a term of imprisonment of at least six months, but not longer than the maximum sentence authorized for the offense, if the victim of the assault was a pregnant woman and the defendant knew or should have known that the victim was pregnant.

Colo. Rev. Stat. §18-1.3-1201 defines aggravating factors in the sentence of death or life imprisonment. The law defines the intentional killing of a pregnant woman with the knowledge that she was pregnant as an aggravating factor.
Making the fact that the woman is pregnant an aggravating factor is just a cutesy way of dodging the core issue.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:53 pm

Oklahoma
Oklahoma is just a signature away from revoking the licenses of most doctors who perform abortions.

Under a bill passed by the legislature this week, doctors who perform abortions — defined in the measure as “unprofessional conduct” — would be barred from obtaining or renewing their medical licenses. The bill would not apply to abortions performed to save a mother’s life, although the bill lacks similar exceptions abortions performed in cases of rape or incest.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by gbasden » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:43 pm

El Guapo wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
Moliere wrote:Joe Rogan talking to Colin Moriarty about abortion. Although pro-choice he understands the need for an honest conversation about what abortion really is and how difficult the issue can be to discuss.
I love this. I get so aggravated about how often pro-choice individuals want to ignore the messy parts.
To be fair, everyone wants to ignore the messy parts of things that they are in favor of.
For sure.

I am strongly pro-choice, but I absolutely recognize that you are actively causing a potential life to perish. That's a huge decision and one that should be gravely considered. I feel like I have to support access to abortion though, because as a country we actively choose to keep cutting away at the social safely net that supports many of these women and the children they would be forced to bear to term. If we could make it easier to adopt children in these circumstances, if we could make a convincing argument that as a society we would support an unmarried girl with a newborn, if we didn't seem to stop caring about the baby at the moment of delivery I could support making abortion much harder to acquire.

I had to go through the pain of aborting the twins my wife and I were expecting because of the rupture of the amniotic sac. If she hadn't been able to have the procedure when she did, it would have likely led to her death or inability to carry any future children. I might not have my wife now, and I certainly wouldn't have my son. I personally feel that this is the messy part that anti-abortion activists ignore on their side.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Moliere » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:56 pm

gbasden wrote:I had to go through the pain of aborting the twins my wife and I were expecting because of the rupture of the amniotic sac. If she hadn't been able to have the procedure when she did, it would have likely led to her death or inability to carry any future children. I might not have my wife now, and I certainly wouldn't have my son. I personally feel that this is the messy part that anti-abortion activists ignore on their side.
The example I heard from Ben Shapiro is a woman who is pregnant and then is diagnosed with cancer. If the chemotherapy and/or radiation will abort the baby then she is put in the decision of aborting the baby herself or risking foregoing the cancer treatment for months. So in these outlier situations he can understand the argument for abortion.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Zarathud » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:13 pm

gbasden wrote:I had to go through the pain of aborting the twins my wife and I were expecting because of the rupture of the amniotic sac. If she hadn't been able to have the procedure when she did, it would have likely led to her death or inability to carry any future children. I might not have my wife now, and I certainly wouldn't have my son. I personally feel that this is the messy part that anti-abortion activists ignore on their side.
My wife and I made the same decision for a fatal Trisomy 13 chromosomal defect. Getting to birth was unlikely and the fetus's survival afterwards would be measured in hours or days. There was no way my wife could mentally go through the trauma, and the remaining months put her life and further fertility at massive risk. Until you face that situation, you have no idea how hard the decision is.

Do some people make poor choices or are callous about it? Sure. But if the USA considers it right to protect gun ownership or the right to say horrible things, the right for a woman to make choices about having a child should be equally protected.

Shame on the Oklahoma legislature for classifying medical decisions as "unprofessional conduct" -- they are making a (unfair and callous) moral judgment, not a medical professional judgment.
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by PLW » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:49 am

Let's add in the fact that the US has the highest rate of maternal death from pregnancy complications in the developed world. Forcing a woman to carry a baby to term, when she doesn't want to, is forcing her to risk her life.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by El Guapo » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:47 am

Isgrimnur wrote:Oklahoma
Oklahoma is just a signature away from revoking the licenses of most doctors who perform abortions.

Under a bill passed by the legislature this week, doctors who perform abortions — defined in the measure as “unprofessional conduct” — would be barred from obtaining or renewing their medical licenses. The bill would not apply to abortions performed to save a mother’s life, although the bill lacks similar exceptions abortions performed in cases of rape or incest.
You need a medical license to perform an abortion though, right? If so, this is a de facto complete abortion ban which is essentially certain to be struck down by the courts.

I suppose it would get more complicated if they created a separate license that authorizes you only to perform abortions (and which would then essentially prohibit you from getting a general medical license). Which I think would also be blatantly unconstitutional, but a little more defensible legally.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by El Guapo » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:53 am

Moliere wrote:
gbasden wrote:I had to go through the pain of aborting the twins my wife and I were expecting because of the rupture of the amniotic sac. If she hadn't been able to have the procedure when she did, it would have likely led to her death or inability to carry any future children. I might not have my wife now, and I certainly wouldn't have my son. I personally feel that this is the messy part that anti-abortion activists ignore on their side.
The example I heard from Ben Shapiro is a woman who is pregnant and then is diagnosed with cancer. If the chemotherapy and/or radiation will abort the baby then she is put in the decision of aborting the baby herself or risking foregoing the cancer treatment for months. So in these outlier situations he can understand the argument for abortion.
The broader problem for pro-life advocates is that an abortion ban that included an exemption for the health of the mother would still chill some medically necessary abortions, because doctors faced with a patient who might need such an abortion (particularly in strongly pro-life states) would have to fear zealous prosecutors second-guessing their medical judgment.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by coopasonic » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:00 pm

gbasden wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
Moliere wrote:Joe Rogan talking to Colin Moriarty about abortion. Although pro-choice he understands the need for an honest conversation about what abortion really is and how difficult the issue can be to discuss.
I love this. I get so aggravated about how often pro-choice individuals want to ignore the messy parts.
To be fair, everyone wants to ignore the messy parts of things that they are in favor of.
For sure.

I am strongly pro-choice, but I absolutely recognize that you are actively causing a potential life to perish. That's a huge decision and one that should be gravely considered. I feel like I have to support access to abortion though, because as a country we actively choose to keep cutting away at the social safely net that supports many of these women and the children they would be forced to bear to term. If we could make it easier to adopt children in these circumstances, if we could make a convincing argument that as a society we would support an unmarried girl with a newborn, if we didn't seem to stop caring about the baby at the moment of delivery I could support making abortion much harder to acquire.
Don't forget proper sex ed that goes beyond abstinence as well as access to contraception. That combination should prevent many unwanted pregnancies. Sex is fun, people are going to do it. Help them be responsible about it.
-Coop

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Isgrimnur
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:26 pm

I'd say it's a good thing that you're close to the Texas border so you can flee the impending lynch mob, but unfortunately, Oklahoma is on the other side of it.
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Paingod
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Paingod » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:42 am

coopasonic wrote:Sex is fun, people are going to do it. Help them be responsible about it.
Something the church and community leaders haven't figured out for thousands of years.
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Reproductive Rights, Environmental Defense, Civil Liberties, LGBTQ Awareness, Immigration Rights
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Moliere
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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by Moliere » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:19 am

House Passes Bill Making Abortion After 20 Weeks a Federal Crime
Under the new legislation (H.R. 36), abortion after 20 weeks pregnancy would be a crime except in cases where the life of the mother is at risk or the pregnancy is a product of rape or incest. Pregnant women who find out after the cutoff that they are carrying an nonviable fetus (i.e., one that cannot survive outside the womb) would still be forced to carry the fetus to term.

While women seeking an abortion after 20 weeks would not be criminalized under federal law, anyone who performed or agreed to perform an abortion on someone more than 20 weeks pregnant would face five years in federal prison, a fine, or both. "A woman who undergoes a prohibited abortion may not be prosecuted for violating or conspiring to violate the provisions of this bill," it states.
The "nonviable fetus" part seems a little weird. What's the point other than maybe a Dr. using it as a loophole to perform abortions after 20 weeks?
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by El Guapo » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:34 am

Moliere wrote:
The "nonviable fetus" part seems a little weird. What's the point other than maybe a Dr. using it as a loophole to perform abortions after 20 weeks?
That is exactly the point. As you go farther down the ardent pro-life political spectrum, it becomes more common to assume that women and doctor's will try to game 'health of the mother' and 'nonviable fetus' exemptions in order to conspire to abort healthy, unwanted babies.

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Re: Abortion news and discussion

Post by hepcat » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:50 am

I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
-Mr Bismarck

You have to whack a few rabbits before you are ready to punch a camel.
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