Octopus Overlords

Montag wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 2:50 pm So statistics:

In 2015 per CDC 638,169 abortions at a rate of 188 per 1,000 live births.
1.2% means ~7650 late term abortions.

In 2015 13,286 people killed by firearms, excluding suicide. Suicide would be a large number - in 2010 it was 19,392 - so say 20,000.

Wiki on gun violence in the US - sources BBC article and CDC.

My views are unsettled, but 600,000 abortions per year should be viewed as society fail regardless of your political view.

It's a societal fail that someone got pregnant when she didn't want to have a child. She and her partner should have had better access to contraception and better education on how to use it. Denying her the right to decide whether her body is turned into a hosting mechanism for a fetus against her will would be a societal tragedy.

Having a ban on abortion beginning at 20 weeks into gestation is absurd on its face, but downright evil when you do everything in your power to make it as hard as possible for a woman who knows she's pregnant before 20 weeks into the process to get an abortion. Some states even want to criminalize going to another state to get an abortion that would violate the laws of the state in which you live.

But let's be clear — the religious fanatics behind this push to completely criminalize abortion don't want to stop there. They also are targeting IUDs and contraception. The end goal is overturn Griswold v. Connecticut.

This is important

The state’s teen birth rate and teen abortion rate have dropped 54 percent and 64 percent, respectively, since the devices, known as IUDs, became an affordable option at low-income health clinics, The Denver Post reports. The data were released Thursday by the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment.

It is. It's almost as if better education and access to contraceptives reduce the demand for abortions.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 1:19 pm It is. It's almost as if better education and access to contraceptives reduce the demand for abortions.

Luckily the Republicans are pushing for more and better education as well as easier access to contraceptives in conjunction with their desire to criminalize abortions. That's how you know they are the reality based, solutions oriented party, and not at all knee jerk dogma based, unlike those democrat extremists.

Is it too late to abort Alabama?

Defiant wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 4:12 pm Is it too late to abort Alabama?

Do they already know they are pregnant?

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 3:32 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 1:19 pm It is. It's almost as if better education and access to contraceptives reduce the demand for abortions.

Luckily the Republicans are pushing for more and better education as well as easier access to contraceptives in conjunction with their desire to criminalize abortions. That's how you know they are the reality based, solutions oriented party, and not at all knee jerk dogma based, unlike those democrat extremists.

Here's a good article that echoes my sentiments.

No thanks.

Defiant wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 4:12 pm Is it too late to abort Alabama?

Or can we pass a Morning After bill?

I am pretty sure the author admits he hasn't really thought it through. Having been part of a decision to terminate a second trimester pregnancy for medical reasons (fetal non-viability), it's hard enough without ridiculous laws.

Holman wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 6:28 pm
Or can we pass a Morning After bill?

Not... terrible.

… aaaaaaand Kay Ivey steps squarely into the (wrong side of) history books...



Congrats Alabama (again).

I can't believe this is real.

Zarathud wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 6:29 pm I am pretty sure the author admits he hasn't really thought it through. Having been part of a decision to terminate a second trimester pregnancy for medical reasons (fetal non-viability), it's hard enough without ridiculous laws.

They don't care one bit about the content of the law except for making it go over the Roe v. Wade line so it will prod a decision from the Supreme Court.

Even Pat Robertson thinks Alabama is going to far.

Can someone get my toboggan out of storage? Hell just froze over.

Sepiche wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 8:19 pm

Zarathud wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 6:29 pm I am pretty sure the author admits he hasn't really thought it through. Having been part of a decision to terminate a second trimester pregnancy for medical reasons (fetal non-viability), it's hard enough without ridiculous laws.

They don't care one bit about the content of the law except for making it go over the Roe v. Wade line so it will prod a decision from the Supreme Court.

They're wasting their time. I'm sure Kavanaugh was serious when he said he would respect precedent.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 4:34 pm

Here's a good article that echoes my sentiments.

I'd go for that assuming that the easy and subsidized first trimester part were anywhere close to reality and that actual doctors could make the decision to abort after that. Having gone through an abortion in the fourth month because the amniotic sac broke, I am definitely not willing to sacrifice my wife's life or fertility over dogma.

Of course, can you even imagine the current crop of R's going for that compromise for a microsecond?

All life is sacred and precious. Next order of business? Oh yeah, some folks think we should abolish the death sentence. How dare they!?

Friggin’ hypocrites.

gbasden wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 11:08 pm Of course, can you even imagine the current crop of R's going for that compromise for a microsecond?

I'm not worried about the Lindsay Graham's of the world. I'm only worried about stealing enough (5%?) Republicans to make Trumps impossible.

The cruelty to women is the point.

noxiousdog wrote:

gbasden wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 11:08 pm Of course, can you even imagine the current crop of R's going for that compromise for a microsecond?

I'm not worried about the Lindsay Graham's of the world. I'm only worried about stealing enough (5%?) Republicans to make Trumps impossible.

Then go volunteer for a campaign to turn out voters for low turnout areas rather than horse trade other people's bodies?

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Skinypupy wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 7:43 am

The cruelty to women is the point.

Just ... wow. "The fetus isn't the important part here. We need to control women."

What was the IVF arugment presented that he was responding to?

(not that I'm supporting him, just that I haven't seen what the arugment says)

Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 12:47 pm

noxiousdog wrote:

gbasden wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 11:08 pm Of course, can you even imagine the current crop of R's going for that compromise for a microsecond?

I'm not worried about the Lindsay Graham's of the world. I'm only worried about stealing enough (5%?) Republicans to make Trumps impossible.

Then go volunteer for a campaign to turn out voters for low turnout areas rather than horse trade other people's bodies?

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Yeah. I could totally reach 5 million people that way.

noxiousdog wrote:

Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 12:47 pm

noxiousdog wrote:

gbasden wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 11:08 pm Of course, can you even imagine the current crop of R's going for that compromise for a microsecond?

I'm not worried about the Lindsay Graham's of the world. I'm only worried about stealing enough (5%?) Republicans to make Trumps impossible.

Then go volunteer for a campaign to turn out voters for low turnout areas rather than horse trade other people's bodies?

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Yeah. I could totally reach 5 million people that way.

It's in part how dems took 40 seats in congress. Grass roots activism is arguable more effective than whittling away at the center.

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Remus West wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 1:01 pm What was the IVF arugment presented that he was responding to?

(not that I'm supporting him, just that I haven't seen what the arugment says)

I didn’t hear it, but would assume it’s that the IVF process typically fertilizes multiple embryos and curates (?, probably the wrong word) them for 3-5 days before implanting them in the mother. Any additional embryos are put in cryostorage, and can be thawed out and implanted at a later date. (All three of my kids were “popsicle babies” using this process).

Any remaining frozen embryos left over after the family decides they’re done having kids are destroyed. The whole “life begins at conception” idea would basically make this murder.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 4:34 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 3:32 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 1:19 pm It is. It's almost as if better education and access to contraceptives reduce the demand for abortions.

Luckily the Republicans are pushing for more and better education as well as easier access to contraceptives in conjunction with their desire to criminalize abortions. That's how you know they are the reality based, solutions oriented party, and not at all knee jerk dogma based, unlike those democrat extremists.

Here's a good article that echoes my sentiments.

I would be against compromise for votes on this issue because there is no guarantee you'd get so much as one extra vote and once you willfully accept limits then good luck getting them removed later.

gameoverman wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 2:18 am I would be against compromise for votes on this issue because there is no guarantee you'd get so much as one extra vote and once you willfully accept limits then good luck getting them removed later.

And that in a nutshell is a major reason we have Republicans in office despite their complete unfitness to lead the country.

You, CL, GreenGoo, and whomever else refuse to say there's something horribly wrong with having legalized abortion for healthy pregnancies in the 38th week.

20% of the people say it's the most important voting issue. Another 50% think it's important. And ONLY 13% think it should be legal in the 3rd trimester. Only 30% think it should be legal in the 2nd trimester.

Let that sink in. You refuse to compromise on a position that doesn't happen because people don't terminate healthy 3rd trimester pregnancies, upon which 87% of the country disagrees with you, and for nearly 1/2 of them, it's a major issue.

Either you believe that an individual person has bodily autonomy, or you don't. I don't believe that a person should be forced by the threat of violence, fine, or incarceration to risk their own body to sustain the life of another.

Now, that doesn't mean I support elective abortion up to the second before birth — at some point it becomes safer and more reasonable to simply induce labor and allow birth to occur and put the resulting child up for adoption.

Fireball wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 9:58 am Either you believe that an individual person has bodily autonomy, or you don't. I don't believe that a person should be forced by the threat of violence, fine, or incarceration to risk their own body to sustain the life of another.

Now, that doesn't mean I support elective abortion up to the second before birth — at some point it becomes safer and more reasonable to simply induce labor and allow birth to occur and put the resulting child up for adoption.

I suspect the answer is yes, but do you support full legalization of narcotics and the right to terminate your own life? Does bodily autonomy continue into those spaces?

And then by extention, why has the Democratic Party compromised on narcotics, but not 3rd trimester abortion?

noxiousdog wrote:

gameoverman wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 2:18 am I would be against compromise for votes on this issue because there is no guarantee you'd get so much as one extra vote and once you willfully accept limits then good luck getting them removed later.

And that in a nutshell is a major reason we have Republicans in office despite their complete unfitness to lead the country.

You, CL, GreenGoo, and whomever else refuse to say there's something horribly wrong with having legalized abortion for healthy pregnancies in the 38th week.

20% of the people say it's the most important voting issue. Another 50% think it's important. And ONLY 13% think it should be legal in the 3rd trimester. Only 30% think it should be legal in the 2nd trimester.

Let that sink in. You refuse to compromise on a position that doesn't happen because people don't terminate healthy 3rd trimester pregnancies, upon which 87% of the country disagrees with you, and for nearly 1/2 of them, it's a major issue.

And yet, the problem you're noting is less that 2% of abortions.. And every anecdotal interview with an expert I've listened to says the majority of those are health related.
So the moderates vote republican supporting propoganda and lies in order to pass extreme policy.
It's giving a mouse a cookie. Precedent was set 50 yrs. ago. And we're still here trying to wipe it out through prohibition instead of education. This isn't about the middle. The middle has been hoodwinked. The myth of abortion factories is bullshit. The myth of baby executions is bullshit. The myth of a wave of sluts using abortion as a morning after pill 8 months into pregnancy is bullshit.
Incrementalism works to the fringes as much as to the middle. And giving up women's autonomy, in the name of compromise in order to find an arbitrary line that one side has zero interest in finding regardless of the majority, is a fools errand.

Republicans win because extremism creates a tight and motivated voting block that can exploit the generally conservative lean of both comfortable and uncomfortable human society. Where democrats by nature have to harness a much more diverse coalition.

I'm all about a rational conversation that sets societal norms for abortion that focus on women's autonomy. But fuck if I'm going to condone a compromise that next week will whittle that away while giving extremist slightly more leverage to do what they're doing now.

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Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 10:20 am

noxiousdog wrote:

gameoverman wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 2:18 am I would be against compromise for votes on this issue because there is no guarantee you'd get so much as one extra vote and once you willfully accept limits then good luck getting them removed later.

And that in a nutshell is a major reason we have Republicans in office despite their complete unfitness to lead the country.

You, CL, GreenGoo, and whomever else refuse to say there's something horribly wrong with having legalized abortion for healthy pregnancies in the 38th week.

20% of the people say it's the most important voting issue. Another 50% think it's important. And ONLY 13% think it should be legal in the 3rd trimester. Only 30% think it should be legal in the 2nd trimester.

Let that sink in. You refuse to compromise on a position that doesn't happen because people don't terminate healthy 3rd trimester pregnancies, upon which 87% of the country disagrees with you, and for nearly 1/2 of them, it's a major issue.

And yet, the problem you're noting is less that 2% of abortions.. And every anecdotal interview with an expert I've listened to says the majority of those are health related.
So the moderates vote republican supporting propoganda and lies in order to pass extreme policy.
It's giving a mouse a cookie. Precedent was set 50 yrs. ago. And we're still here trying to wipe it out through prohibition instead of education. This isn't about the middle. The middle has been hoodwinked. The myth of abortion factories is bullshit. The myth of baby executions is bullshit. The myth of a wave of sluts using abortion as a morning after pill 8 months into pregnancy is bullshit.
Incrementalism works to the fringes as much as to the middle. And giving up women's autonomy, in the name of compromise in order to find an arbitrary line that one side has zero interest in finding regardless of the majority, is a fools errand.

Republicans win because extremism creates a tight and motivated voting block that can exploit the generally conservative lean of both comfortable and uncomfortable human society. Where democrats by nature have to harness a much more diverse coalition.

I'm all about a rational conversation that sets societal norms for abortion that focus on women's autonomy. But fuck if I'm going to condone a compromise that next week will whittle that away while giving extremist slightly more leverage to do what they're doing now.

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Right. So you're refusing to compromise on a position that 87% of voters disagree with you and will have no appreciable impact on those concerned.

Keep in mind that small percentage gains in Democratic voters could lead to huge benefits in health, education, and equality. Oh yeah, and climate.

noxiousdog wrote:
You, CL, GreenGoo, and whomever else refuse to say there's something horribly wrong with having legalized abortion for healthy pregnancies in the 38th week.

I can't speak for the other two. But you're being manipulated if you think that's an actual thing.
Less than 2% most of which are health. By saying it's okay to regulate you empower the fanatics.
Regardless, the right (not moderates) is not legislating late term abortions they are legislating all abortions. Some states found that arbitrary equilibrium, good on them. But the fight right now is over the extremists who have orchestrated this incremental seed of doubt/policy based on ignorance, misinformation, and emotion. You may want a middle ground. Alabama senators clearly don't

In fairnes I don't know that it's particularly horrible. God's been doing it at an astronomical rate since life was created. This is a modern problem.



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The Auntie Network spontaneously becomes a thing.

In a striking sign of the times, volunteers across the United States and Canada are joining forces on social media to create a network of safe houses for women seeking abortions in states that are trying to restrict the procedure.
...
“Aunt Michelle in Massachusetts would love to see you,” one woman tweeted this week. “I will meet you at the airport, bus station, train station — wherever — to get you where you need to go, support you & give you a place to stay.”

“I know it’s a shame that your family lives as far north as Ontario but the lakes and campgrounds are beautiful,” a woman from Toronto tweeted. “If you ever need it, nature is great for women’s health.”

When I was in high school, girls occasionally disappeared for a week to "visit an uncle in New York." The more things change...unfortunately girls still have to pay for their own transportation and be able to absent themselves from their routines, so it's only an option for those with some means.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 10:09 am

Fireball wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 9:58 am Either you believe that an individual person has bodily autonomy, or you don't. I don't believe that a person should be forced by the threat of violence, fine, or incarceration to risk their own body to sustain the life of another.

Now, that doesn't mean I support elective abortion up to the second before birth — at some point it becomes safer and more reasonable to simply induce labor and allow birth to occur and put the resulting child up for adoption.

I suspect the answer is yes, but do you support full legalization of narcotics and the right to terminate your own life? Does bodily autonomy continue into those spaces?

I support the legalization of marijuana, and would be open to ways that people could safely use other drugs without harming others. I completely support the right of people to make their own decisions about the timing and manner of their own death, again, so long as they are not harming others.

And then by extention, why has the Democratic Party compromised on narcotics, but not 3rd trimester abortion?

Because all parties are an aggregate of the positions of various members therein. The nature of political parties in America doesn't encourage ideological consistency or purity.

Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 10:30 am

noxiousdog wrote:
You, CL, GreenGoo, and whomever else refuse to say there's something horribly wrong with having legalized abortion for healthy pregnancies in the 38th week.

I can't speak for the other two. But you're being manipulated if you think that's an actual thing.
Less than 2% most of which are health. By saying it's okay to regulate you empower the fanatics.
Regardless, the right (not moderates) is not legislating late term abortions they are legislating all abortions. Some states found that arbitrary equilibrium, good on them. But the fight right now is over the extremists who have orchestrated this incremental seed of doubt/policy based on ignorance, misinformation, and emotion. You may want a middle ground. Alabama senators clearly don't

In fairnes I don't know that it's particularly horrible. God's been doing it at an astronomical rate since life was created. This is a modern problem.



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You're entitled to that position, but I think you're missing the big picture. Beto lost by 2%. It seems conceivable that could be made up on an issue that 50% of the voters consider important.

noxiousdog wrote:

Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 10:30 am

noxiousdog wrote:
You, CL, GreenGoo, and whomever else refuse to say there's something horribly wrong with having legalized abortion for healthy pregnancies in the 38th week.

I can't speak for the other two. But you're being manipulated if you think that's an actual thing.
Less than 2% most of which are health. By saying it's okay to regulate you empower the fanatics.
Regardless, the right (not moderates) is not legislating late term abortions they are legislating all abortions. Some states found that arbitrary equilibrium, good on them. But the fight right now is over the extremists who have orchestrated this incremental seed of doubt/policy based on ignorance, misinformation, and emotion. You may want a middle ground. Alabama senators clearly don't

In fairnes I don't know that it's particularly horrible. God's been doing it at an astronomical rate since life was created. This is a modern problem.



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You're entitled to that position, but I think you're missing the big picture. Beto lost by 2%. It seems conceivable that could be made up on an issue that 50% of the voters consider important.

That's a really big maybe. He could also loose the enthusiasm and turnout of democrats who see it as sacrificing their rights to court older white people. Which is something every Democrat particularly those that look like him have to answer to.

Dems won the house through record turnout and trump defectors.

I don't know who is right, but there's definitely an argument as to which is more effective. Boosting your base or courting the middle. Particularly in the current political climate. In that hazy environment I'm comfortable not sacrificing my values.

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I think it's naive to believe that any form of abortion ban is not designed to chip away at Roe v Wade. This isn't about stopping abortions after 38 weeks. It's about getting a foot in the door to stop all of them.

Unless you're Alabama or Missouri, where you just cut right to the chase.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 11:02 am I think it's naive to believe that any form of abortion ban is not designed to chip away at Roe v Wade. This isn't about stopping abortions after 38 weeks. It's about getting a foot in the door to stop all of them.

Unless you're Alabama or Missouri, where you just cut right to the chase.

In California, it's illegal to abort a healthy fetus after 26 weeks. Do you really think they are chipping away at Roe v. Wade?

Only 9 states have no time restrictions: West Virginia, Vermont, Oregon, New Mexico, New Jersey, New Hampshire, Mississippi, D.C., Colorado, Alaska.