Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus
+1El Guapo wrote:I would go farther and say that I blame everyone who did not vote for Clinton. Yeah, it sucks that we have an archaic system that boils it down to a binary choice, but that's the situation that we were in in November.
Exactly this. Now we can have a nice long discussion about how fucked up our system is to bring us that binary choice, but I vividly remember several conversations with folks on 'both sides' of the aisle--Repubs who REALLY didn't want to vote for Clinton despite being no fan of Trump, and Berninators who just hated Hillary.El Guapo wrote:I would go farther and say that I blame everyone who did not vote for Clinton. Yeah, it sucks that we have an archaic system that boils it down to a binary choice, but that's the situation that we were in in November.
Agreed. That crossed my mind when I was posting. I should have followed up on it. We should never forgot about the people that didn't vote at all.Fireball wrote:+1El Guapo wrote:I would go farther and say that I blame everyone who did not vote for Clinton. Yeah, it sucks that we have an archaic system that boils it down to a binary choice, but that's the situation that we were in in November.
If you didn't vote for Hillary Clinton, you helped elect Donald Trump.
Absolutely.El Guapo wrote:Everyone does that, though. The bad things that happened are the fault of the people that I already disliked, and if everyone just did what I have been recommending then we would win. The Sanders people blame the democratic centrists, the centrists blame the Sanders people.
For that matter, anyone who really wants to vote for the Green Party, Libertarian Party, or any other party, should be less focused on campaigning for them specifically, and more focused on electoral reforms, such as instant run-off voting (which can be plausibly accomplished at the state level).Zaxxon wrote:Exactly this. Now we can have a nice long discussion about how fucked up our system is to bring us that binary choice, but I vividly remember several conversations with folks on 'both sides' of the aisle--Repubs who REALLY didn't want to vote for Clinton despite being no fan of Trump, and Berninators who just hated Hillary.El Guapo wrote:I would go farther and say that I blame everyone who did not vote for Clinton. Yeah, it sucks that we have an archaic system that boils it down to a binary choice, but that's the situation that we were in in November.
The bottom line as Guap says above and as I said in those conversations: the actual choice that Americans had on the ballot was Clinton or Trump. More specifically, it was 'vote for Clinton, literally the only sane choice with a snowball's chance in hell of winning, or enable Trump. There is no third option.' I'd love for it not to be binary in the future, but for now it absolutely is.
LOL. I'll direct you back to my earlier comments: We're fuct.LordMortis wrote:What is the desired effect from actions happening right now? It is working?
I honestly do not understand your question. I, uh, want actions to have the effect of removing Trump from office? Also making me fabulously wealthy?LordMortis wrote:Absolutely.El Guapo wrote:Everyone does that, though. The bad things that happened are the fault of the people that I already disliked, and if everyone just did what I have been recommending then we would win. The Sanders people blame the democratic centrists, the centrists blame the Sanders people.
What is the desired effect from actions happening right now? It is working?
What are we doing right now? We are making claims coinciding with Clinton's memoir that "Bernie Sanders voters helped Trump win and here's proof" This is increasing the volume of something that hasn't stopped in the last 10 months. Why is the desired effect? There is a reason these shouts are continuing to be shouted. There is an expectation that goes along with the communication. What is that expectation? Are the senders of this message achieving their goals?El Guapo wrote:I honestly do not understand your question. I, uh, want actions to have the effect of removing Trump from office? Also making me fabulously wealthy?LordMortis wrote:Absolutely.El Guapo wrote:Everyone does that, though. The bad things that happened are the fault of the people that I already disliked, and if everyone just did what I have been recommending then we would win. The Sanders people blame the democratic centrists, the centrists blame the Sanders people.
What is the desired effect from actions happening right now? It is working?
I agree. I know there are still people who celebrate the current state of things. I only hope to understand them. But it is daunting.TheMix wrote:I'm with hepcat on this. (Though my descriptions are not as impressive as his.)
I don't blame the Bernie supporters that voted for Trump. At least not specifically. I blame everyone that voted for Trump. I don't care, at all, who they preferred. On the final ballot it was a binary choice. One horrible, and one not. If they chose the horrible option, then they deserve to be blamed. The lies reasons excuses that they told themselves to make it easier to make that choice are irrelevant.
You mean newsweek, right? The Onion link was posted later.Isgrimnur wrote:You do know that link goes to The Onion, right?
I assume that most of the point is venting. To the extent that there is a point I assume the centrists want to convince anyone who voted third party to vote for the democratic nominee in 2020, and the leftists want to convince the centrists to support a leftist in 2020.LordMortis wrote:What are we doing right now? We are making claims coinciding with Clinton's memoir that "Bernie Sanders voters helped Trump win and here's proof" This is increasing the volume of something that hasn't stopped in the last 10 months. Why is the desired effect? There is a reason these shouts are continuing to be shouted. There is an expectation that goes along with the communication. What is that expectation? Are the senders of this message achieving their goals?El Guapo wrote:I honestly do not understand your question. I, uh, want actions to have the effect of removing Trump from office? Also making me fabulously wealthy?LordMortis wrote:Absolutely.El Guapo wrote:Everyone does that, though. The bad things that happened are the fault of the people that I already disliked, and if everyone just did what I have been recommending then we would win. The Sanders people blame the democratic centrists, the centrists blame the Sanders people.
What is the desired effect from actions happening right now? It is working?
Concurred. I don't think it's a good thing, though. I think the real desire is to have a Congress and Presidency run by centrist democrats and that venting at and attacking the people you are trying to convince is going produce results contrary to your desires, nevermind that centrist democrat venting has been going on for over two years straight.El Guapo wrote:I assume that most of the point is venting.
But my point is that it's not just centrist democrat venting. I have seen plenty of parallel whining by Sanders people that if only the Democratic Party had wholeheartedly embraced their thinking to begin with they would have won. Their real desire is to have a Congress and a Presidency run by left wing democrats, notwithstanding that venting at and attacking the people that they are trying to convince is going to produce results contrary to their desires, nevermind that left-wing democratic venting has been going on for over two years straight.LordMortis wrote:Concurred. I don't think it's a good thing, though. I think the real desire is to have a Congress and Presidency run by centrist democrats and that venting at and attacking the people you are trying to convince is going produce results contrary to your desires, nevermind that centrist democrat venting has been going on for over two years straight.El Guapo wrote:I assume that most of the point is venting.
He had a soft spot, but he was a little more authoritarian than I'd like.Isgrimnur wrote:"The status is NOT quo!"
At this point, I'd vote for Doctor Horrible.