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Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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Fireball
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Fireball » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:22 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:59 am
How can you possibly make the leap and make it against the one senator who supported your bid?
Actually, Warren never endorsed Sanders in 2016. She stayed out of the race until after the last primary and then endorsed Clinton. It seems like her goal was to be a unifying figure whose endorsement could bring progressives to Clinton or mainstream Democrats to Bernie. His hardcore fringe of supporters have never forgiven her for this "betrayal".
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:00 pm

Not the Onion:

Roy Moore announces 2020 Senate run, vows to 'make more personal contact with people'
During his press conference on Thursday, Moore said that there is "such opposition" to his run because "they know I can" win. When asked what he'll do differently in his campaign this time, Moore responded, "I would like to make more personal contact with people."

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:36 pm

Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Daehawk » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:44 pm

The Dems should really start getting behind someone now and have their ducks in a row.

Also saw Booker attacking Biden wanting an apology for something .WTG numb nuts in the party attacking each other and providing dissension .
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Smoove_B » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:48 pm

Daehawk wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:44 pm
Also saw Booker attacking Biden wanting an apology for something .WTG numb nuts in the party attacking each other and providing dissension .
He called him out for being an old, out of touch white man:
“Apologize for what?” Mr. Biden snapped on Wednesday evening after Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey, a rival in the 2020 campaign, said he should express regret for citing two Southern segregationist senators as examples of civility in politics. “There’s not a racist bone in my body.”
It's not that Joe Biden is a bad person. It just...he represents politics and politicians from a different era. I don't think he's the hero we need right now. I like Joe Biden - truly. But it saddens me to think that after 2016 he's the best answer the (D) have.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Daehawk » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 pm

Oh boy. :doh: Well that will tear the Dems apart.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:04 pm

Holman wrote:

link
Deleted.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:47 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:04 pm
Holman wrote:

link
Deleted.
Complicated subtweet about Roy Moore not being allowed on the National Mall. (Get it?)
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by $iljanus » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:48 pm

And to give a little more background as to why Biden is really tone deaf. From Smoove_B's NYT article:
Mr. Biden’s remarks came at a fund-raiser Tuesday night where he talked about Mr. Eastland and at one point recalled how “he never called me ‘boy,’ he always called me ‘son.’”
Well Mr. Biden perhaps he never called you boy because, well, you ain't black you dumbass. I'm sure the fine Mr. Eastland would have used a different word if you were black.

And he's been pretty unapologetic so I say have at him!

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:05 pm

Appearing on CNN on Wednesday night, Sanders was asked by Chris Cuomo, “What do you think the reason is that Elizabeth Warren is catching up to you in polls? Do you believe that people see her as the more electable version of Bernie Sanders?” To which the lawmaker from Vermont responded, “Well, I think we are running against a lot of problems.” He then proceeded to describe said problems. “I think that there are a certain number of people who would like to see a woman elected, and I understand that,” Sanders said. “There are people who would like to see somebody who is younger, and I understand that also. There are a lot of factors out there.”
link

Yeah, that's the reason Warren is climbing in the polls. Because shes a woman. Riiiiiigghttttt /sarcasm

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Kraken » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:56 pm

Daehawk wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:44 pm
The Dems should really start getting behind someone now and have their ducks in a row.
Sure, who wants all those debates and primaries and democracy stuff? Just roll dice for it.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Jaymann » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:26 am

As long as it is a twenty-sided die.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Fireball » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:51 am

Daehawk wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:44 pm
The Dems should really start getting behind someone now and have their ducks in a row.
No, we should have a good, spirited, and positive debate, figure out who amongst the 24 candidates is the best, and when the time comes get behind her. Lining up right now behind whoever happens to have a weak lead in early polls would be absurd.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Jeff V » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:28 am

You also don't want the elephants focusing their personal attacks on a single target. Let them waste resources going after those who won't matter in the end.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:58 am

While it's way too early to get behind one person, I fully support narrowing the field down to like 8-10 candidates, which hopefully will happen after the first couple of multi-candidate joint press conference of 30-second talking points. Oops, I mean "debate".

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by LordMortis » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:22 pm

Fireball wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:51 am
No, we should have a good, spirited, and positive debate, figure out who amongst the 24 candidates is the best, and when the time comes get behind her. Lining up right now behind whoever happens to have a weak lead in early polls would be absurd.
A rare utter and complete eye to eye moment. Emphasizing positive. No mud slinging. Go after ideas and policies but in a positive way. The prize needs to be the win for the US, not personal ambition. The best thing I could see coming out of a 20 person field is not a fight nor a circle jerk but showing the ability to work together toward common cause. (Well, that and a plan for policy to walk us back)

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Fireball » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:33 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:22 pm
Fireball wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:51 am
No, we should have a good, spirited, and positive debate, figure out who amongst the 24 candidates is the best, and when the time comes get behind her. Lining up right now behind whoever happens to have a weak lead in early polls would be absurd.
A rare utter and complete eye to eye moment. Emphasizing positive. No mud slinging. Go after ideas and policies but in a positive way. The prize needs to be the win for the US, not personal ambition. The best thing I could see coming out of a 20 person field is not a fight nor a circle jerk but showing the ability to work together toward common cause. (Well, that and a plan for policy to walk us back)
Of course, where it gets slippery is when trying to define "mud slinging". It is completely appropriate to call out opponents when they are wrong, when they have done something improper, or when they have something in their background that raises questions about their stated beliefs.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by $iljanus » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:42 pm

Defiant wrote:
Appearing on CNN on Wednesday night, Sanders was asked by Chris Cuomo, “What do you think the reason is that Elizabeth Warren is catching up to you in polls? Do you believe that people see her as the more electable version of Bernie Sanders?” To which the lawmaker from Vermont responded, “Well, I think we are running against a lot of problems.” He then proceeded to describe said problems. “I think that there are a certain number of people who would like to see a woman elected, and I understand that,” Sanders said. “There are people who would like to see somebody who is younger, and I understand that also. There are a lot of factors out there.”
link

Yeah, that's the reason Warren is climbing in the polls. Because shes a woman. Riiiiiigghttttt /sarcasm

:pop:
Male politicians sure get flustered when facing someone with ovaries.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by tjg_marantz » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:32 pm

So instead of all jumping on Trump for his reaction about the central park 5, every Democrat candidate piles on to Biden. They really want to fuck it up again don't they.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by hitbyambulance » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:56 pm

tjg_marantz wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:32 pm
So instead of all jumping on Trump for his reaction about the central park 5, every Democrat candidate piles on to Biden. They really want to fuck it up again don't they.
it seems to be the way. easier to attack one's 'family' for lesser wrongs (or even petty drama) than to engage actual opposition.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Fireball » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:11 pm

tjg_marantz wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:32 pm
So instead of all jumping on Trump for his reaction about the central park 5, every Democrat candidate piles on to Biden. They really want to fuck it up again don't they.
Trump's situation with the Central Park Five isn't new, it's been litigated for years. Biden's horrific comments about Eastland are deserving of umbrage. Biden is a sloppy, reckless candidate running a lazy and arrogant campaign; he could be a disastrous nominee. It is not wrong for his primary opponents to call out his mistakes, especially when they are so egregious.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:16 pm

Fireball wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:11 pm
tjg_marantz wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:32 pm
So instead of all jumping on Trump for his reaction about the central park 5, every Democrat candidate piles on to Biden. They really want to fuck it up again don't they.
Trump's situation with the Central Park Five isn't new, it's been litigated for years. Biden's horrific comments about Eastland are deserving of umbrage. Biden is a sloppy, reckless candidate running a lazy and arrogant campaign; he could be a disastrous nominee. It is not wrong for his primary opponents to call out his mistakes, especially when they are so egregious.
Yeah, I've been impressed with Warren's ground game this cycle. When I look at Biden from a CA perspective, he treats us like a Republican - I'm only here for the money.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by tjg_marantz » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:57 pm

Where's that man holding his forehead emoji?
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Fireball » Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:05 pm

Primaries aren't bad things, and primaries require delineating the differences in policies, temperament and qualifications between you and your opponents.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by YellowKing » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:16 pm

Yeah while I had general support for Biden due to his electability, the past week has just made me cringe. The constant gaffes, his "good ol' boys" demeanor with the GOP - the more I hear the more I fervently hope his frontrunner status is based on name recognition and will erode quickly. While I would vote for him in a heartbeat over Trump, I'd genuinely like to vote for someone I'm enthusiastic for.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:17 pm

Fireball wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:05 pm
Primaries aren't bad things, and primaries require delineating the differences in policies, temperament and qualifications between you and your opponents.
Additionally, they are grueling test of a candidate and whether they will have the smarts, fortitude and ability to be President.
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:25 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:16 pm
Yeah while I had general support for Biden due to his electability, the past week has just made me cringe. The constant gaffes, his "good ol' boys" demeanor with the GOP - the more I hear the more I fervently hope his frontrunner status is based on name recognition and will erode quickly. While I would vote for him in a heartbeat over Trump, I'd genuinely like to vote for someone I'm enthusiastic for.
For me, the main draw of Biden was his experience with the new GOP as Vice President under Obama, and the thought that he'd learn from those experiences (wasting the supermajority, catering to GOP whims on the bailout and ACA for zero votes, etc.). I thought that would prepare him the best for what is likely to happen if he became President, but his statements are indicating to me that he is far more likely NOT to have learned that lesson.

Which indicates to me that he is more likely to be an ineffective President than I thought he would be. He'll still be a MASSIVE improvement over the current occupant of the office, but he'll mostly accept the terms dictated by the current GOP rather than fix the damage they have done and continue to do.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Drazzil » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:03 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:25 pm
YellowKing wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:16 pm
Yeah while I had general support for Biden due to his electability, the past week has just made me cringe. The constant gaffes, his "good ol' boys" demeanor with the GOP - the more I hear the more I fervently hope his frontrunner status is based on name recognition and will erode quickly. While I would vote for him in a heartbeat over Trump, I'd genuinely like to vote for someone I'm enthusiastic for.
For me, the main draw of Biden was his experience with the new GOP as Vice President under Obama, and the thought that he'd learn from those experiences (wasting the supermajority, catering to GOP whims on the bailout and ACA for zero votes, etc.). I thought that would prepare him the best for what is likely to happen if he became President, but his statements are indicating to me that he is far more likely NOT to have learned that lesson.

Which indicates to me that he is more likely to be an ineffective President than I thought he would be. He'll still be a MASSIVE improvement over the current occupant of the office, but he'll mostly accept the terms dictated by the current GOP rather than fix the damage they have done and continue to do.
I dont think I can vote for a corporate democrat. I'll prolly go third party if some corporate dem slimes his way into the nomination.

I know theres a chance Trump could get a second term, but the Democrats will need to fight a civil war within it's self. We need litmus tests and a party thats not afraid to fight the Republicans, not just the .01.

Eventually, given enough losses they will change or fade into irrelevance, and we will see a second more progressive party.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Drazzil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:03 pm
I dont think I can vote for a corporate democrat. I'll prolly go third party if some corporate dem slimes his way into the nomination.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Seriously. Have you looked at where we are?

Fight for the best Dem you can see in the primary, but then vote for the Dem nominee against Trump.

This year more than ever, third parties are absolute bullshit.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Zarathud » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:25 pm

Can anyone be more corporate politician than Trump?
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:32 pm

Holman wrote:
Drazzil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:03 pm
I dont think I can vote for a corporate democrat. I'll prolly go third party if some corporate dem slimes his way into the nomination.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Seriously. Have you looked at where we are?

Fight for the best Dem you can see in the primary, but then vote for the Dem nominee against Trump.

This year more than ever, third parties are absolute bullshit.
He’s moving from California to Oregon. His vote for president matters as much as mine does.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:48 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:32 pm
Holman wrote:
Drazzil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:03 pm
I dont think I can vote for a corporate democrat. I'll prolly go third party if some corporate dem slimes his way into the nomination.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Seriously. Have you looked at where we are?

Fight for the best Dem you can see in the primary, but then vote for the Dem nominee against Trump.

This year more than ever, third parties are absolute bullshit.
He’s moving from California to Oregon. His vote for president matters as much as mine does.
Incorrect:
Poll shows Biden beating Trump in Texas
Make it so, Isg! Volunteer!
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Drazzil » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:11 pm

Holman wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:11 pm
Drazzil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:03 pm
I dont think I can vote for a corporate democrat. I'll prolly go third party if some corporate dem slimes his way into the nomination.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Seriously. Have you looked at where we are?

Fight for the best Dem you can see in the primary, but then vote for the Dem nominee against Trump.

This year more than ever, third parties are absolute bullshit.
I have looked at where we are. I *want* to force the Dem party to have an identity crisis. We can't afford to wait another 8 years. A decent president or a total collapse. Yeah. It'll suck, but I've watched the last 20 years pass me by waiting for real change. People like me don't have much to lose. We are desperate. How do you think Trump eked out his narrow margin in Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan and other states?

The desperate poor, and working class who saw little gains despite playing by the rules and doing everything right. Hillary basically told these people things wouldn't get better for them, A lot of Bernie voters went Trump in these states.

So, I have a choice, let buiness as usual happen (no net gain for me) or let it all come down (things will possibly improve)

So, that being said. I'm going from a blue area, to a blue area, so my vote doesen't matter.

However plenty of people just like me are in other areas, swing states and we won't vote Democratic again unless we see a party fight for us...



Sorry.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:31 pm

Drazzil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:11 pm
Holman wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:11 pm
Drazzil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:03 pm
I dont think I can vote for a corporate democrat. I'll prolly go third party if some corporate dem slimes his way into the nomination.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Seriously. Have you looked at where we are?

Fight for the best Dem you can see in the primary, but then vote for the Dem nominee against Trump.

This year more than ever, third parties are absolute bullshit.
I have looked at where we are. I *want* to force the Dem party to have an identity crisis. We can't afford to wait another 8 years. A decent president or a total collapse. Yeah. It'll suck, but I've watched the last 20 years pass me by waiting for real change. People like me don't have much to lose. We are desperate. How do you think Trump eked out his narrow margin in Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan and other states?

The desperate poor, and working class who saw little gains despite playing by the rules and doing everything right. Hillary basically told these people things wouldn't get better for them, A lot of Bernie voters went Trump in these states.

So, I have a choice, let buiness as usual happen (no net gain for me) or let it all come down (things will possibly improve)

So, that being said. I'm going from a blue area, to a blue area, so my vote doesen't matter.

However plenty of people just like me are in other areas, swing states and we won't vote Democratic again unless we see a party fight for us...



Sorry.
Drazzil - be the change you want to see. Find a candidate you support and volunteer (good job experience and networking too!). I had a fun time the campaign I worked on.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Drazzil » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:34 pm

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... ic-nominee

Bernie/Warren or bust (third party)
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Drazzil » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:35 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:31 pm
Drazzil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:11 pm
Holman wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:11 pm
Drazzil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:03 pm
I dont think I can vote for a corporate democrat. I'll prolly go third party if some corporate dem slimes his way into the nomination.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Seriously. Have you looked at where we are?

Fight for the best Dem you can see in the primary, but then vote for the Dem nominee against Trump.

This year more than ever, third parties are absolute bullshit.
I have looked at where we are. I *want* to force the Dem party to have an identity crisis. We can't afford to wait another 8 years. A decent president or a total collapse. Yeah. It'll suck, but I've watched the last 20 years pass me by waiting for real change. People like me don't have much to lose. We are desperate. How do you think Trump eked out his narrow margin in Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan and other states?

The desperate poor, and working class who saw little gains despite playing by the rules and doing everything right. Hillary basically told these people things wouldn't get better for them, A lot of Bernie voters went Trump in these states.

So, I have a choice, let buiness as usual happen (no net gain for me) or let it all come down (things will possibly improve)

So, that being said. I'm going from a blue area, to a blue area, so my vote doesen't matter.

However plenty of people just like me are in other areas, swing states and we won't vote Democratic again unless we see a party fight for us...



Sorry.
Drazzil - be the change you want to see. Find a candidate you support and volunteer (good job experience and networking too!). I had a fun time the campaign I worked on.
Yep. I will definitely be volunteering for Bernie or Warren in Oregon (god and voters willing).
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Drazzil
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Drazzil » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:49 pm

Sorry guys. I'm stirring the sh-t pot and making people think worse of me. I'll shut up now.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.

stimpy
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by stimpy » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:53 pm

Fuck what people think of you.
Do what you feel and then live with the consequences.
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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Holman
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:07 pm

stimpy wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:53 pm
Fuck what people think of you.
Do what you feel and then live with the consequences.
Except we all have to live with shared consequences.

That's why elections are about persuading others.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

Drazzil
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Drazzil » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:27 pm

Holman wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:07 pm
stimpy wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:53 pm
Fuck what people think of you.
Do what you feel and then live with the consequences.
Except we all have to live with shared consequences.

That's why elections are about persuading others.
See, heres the problem I see. Income inequality is making people dumber and less engaged and truly angry. There are enough people out there that are so disgusted with their lot in life; that they will knowingly who vote for the worst possible canidate just to burn it all down. I'm not even talking about the dum dums who believe in Trump, I'm talking about the people who know the system is screwing them.

If the machine doesen't work for them then why should it be allowed to work for anyone? Why should I knowingly support a canidate who may talk a good game but will give exactly two f-cks about people who work for a living (or would like to).

Its like a house burning down, and the people in the house are allowed to vote for a fireman who won't save the people in the first floor no matter what but will save the people in the floors above them, or a fireman who may help a few people in the attic but the house is gonna burn down regardless.

What incentive will the people on the first floor have to save the building? None that I can see.

F-ck I'm not explaining this right.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.

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