Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:27 am
If she had to choose from the pool of other presidential candidates, Buttigieg would cover some bases she needs -- young, moderate, Midwestern, war veteran, Christian. I have no idea if the two of them like one another, or if Butti would even consider being #2, but somebody who checks those same boxes would be an asset.
eh, I imagine Warren's campaign advisors wouldn't be too thrilled about her picking someone that young, and also someone who is gay. I would assume that she would pick someone 'safer' - e.g., more traditionally credentialed. Maybe someone like Sherrod Brown - Senator, from the midwest, straight white male, appeals to union types, straddles the moderate / progressive lane like her.
I wouldn't call Buttigieg moderate (I would say he's somewhere in between the two ends, but somewhat closer to the progressive end than the moderate end).
But I have a really hard time buying Warren as "straddling the moderate / progressive lane". She's firmly on the left edge, with only Sanders (and the squad) to her left (and on some issues, she's to the left of Sanders).
Maybe a better way to put it is Warren straddles the "establishment / progressive lane" or establishment / outsider, etc. She's fairly progressive policy-wise, but she's vastly more acceptable to the DNC than Sanders, in part because she doesn't call herself a socialist and doesn't go out of her way to poke establishment democrats in the eye.
And Buttigieg's policies generally strike me as fairly moderate / center-left, at least in the context of the Democratic primary. I'm thinking mainly of him being one of the dissenters from Medicare for All, in favor of "Medicare for those who want it / public option".
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:44 am
Nice to see Bernie being Bernie:
Sen. Bernie Sanders unveiled a tax on wealth Tuesday as he aims to cut income inequality and fund his sprawling social programs.
The 2020 Democratic presidential candidate’s proposal follows a similar plan from Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, who has made a wealth tax a centerpiece of her White House campaign. But the measure from Sanders, who has long railed against an economic system that he says favors corporations and the rich, would tax the richest Americans’ assets more heavily than his rival’s.
This strikes me as a gift to Warren. Gives her an issue where she's the policy leader / innovator, PLUS by being more aggressive it lets her position herself as the more sensible / less crazy / less out there candidate.
El Guapo wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:21 pm
Maybe a better way to put it is Warren straddles the "establishment / progressive lane" or establishment / outsider, etc. She's fairly progressive policy-wise, but she's vastly more acceptable to the DNC than Sanders, in part because she doesn't call herself a socialist and doesn't go out of her way to poke establishment democrats in the eye.
That's fair
And Buttigieg's policies generally strike me as fairly moderate / center-left, at least in the context of the Democratic primary. I'm thinking mainly of him being one of the dissenters from Medicare for All, in favor of "Medicare for those who want it / public option".
Most of them now have some variation of that position ("achieving medicare for all via public option"), with the exception of Sanders and Warren, including Booker and Harris (who had signed on to Sanders Medicare For All bill)
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:44 am
Nice to see Bernie being Bernie:
Sen. Bernie Sanders unveiled a tax on wealth Tuesday as he aims to cut income inequality and fund his sprawling social programs.
The 2020 Democratic presidential candidate’s proposal follows a similar plan from Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, who has made a wealth tax a centerpiece of her White House campaign. But the measure from Sanders, who has long railed against an economic system that he says favors corporations and the rich, would tax the richest Americans’ assets more heavily than his rival’s.
Demonizing the rich simply for being rich has always struck me as wrong. Fine, tax them more heavily, but don't present it as a form of punishment for some sin. Something that Bernie and his supporters seem to take pleasure in doing.
Daehawk wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:21 am
So if Warren gets the nod who should be her running mate?
Should she pick Bernie? Biden? Or go off the rails and pick that 16 year old Swedish activist that is trying to save the world for herself, other young folk, and future Earthers?
Well maybe not that far off the rails but maybe a little off the rails? Who would that be? Hilary? Al Gore? Who?
If she had to choose from the pool of other presidential candidates, Buttigieg would cover some bases she needs -- young, moderate, Midwestern, war veteran, Christian. I have no idea if the two of them like one another, or if Butti would even consider being #2, but somebody who checks those same boxes would be an asset.
eh, I imagine Warren's campaign advisors wouldn't be too thrilled about her picking someone that young, and also someone who is gay. I would assume that she would pick someone 'safer' - e.g., more traditionally credentialed. Maybe someone like Sherrod Brown - Senator, from the midwest, straight white male, appeals to union types, straddles the moderate / progressive lane like her.
If it were me, I wouldn't choose my #2 from among the people I had just defeated for the same job I want -- too much ego and ambition there. Those are just the names we gravitate toward because they're getting all the exposure these days.
Barrack Obama - Senator, from the midwest, straight white male, appeals to union types, straddles the moderate / progressive lane like her.
Does Warren straddle moderate? I guess that shows how far right I truly would otherwise be in a different reality. The only major figure I think of that makes her look moderate is Sanders and Sanders has a streak where I worry about his governing from reality. After that you go to figures like Stein, and uh... no... I don't see the AOCs as more progressive than Warren, just younger.
In the media narrative, Warren probably does not straddle that divide.
However, in terms of actual policy, I think she does. Yes, her plans are bold and progressive, but most are fundamentally grounded in a basic faith in the rationality of markets and, thus, a European style take on capitalism. That's the main difference between her and Sanders.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
Bernie Sanders felt chest pain and had emergency surgery for a blocked artery yesterday. He said to be stable and doing well, but future campaign events have been cancelled for the time being.
I'm no fan, but I wish him well and hope he returns to the primary soon. It does raise the age issue, though.
Agreed. As soon as I saw the news I knew his chances were done. I don't think he would have won the nomination anyway, but still a shame.
Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people’s stuff.
Archinerd wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:58 am
I wish him well, but I think this is the end of the campaign for Bernie. He's not going to be able to shake off the age issue after this.
Depends in part what the short and long-term impact of this will be on him and his ability to vigorously campaign. He doesn't seem to give up easily, and he can use this (and the resulting media attention) to drive a "I won't stop fighting for the people" narrative.
Given the state of the polls, though (Warren surging, looking to be roughly in a tie with Biden, Sanders polling looking semi-grim), I wonder whether there might be some discussion in Sanders-land of withdrawing and endorsing Warren.
Archinerd wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:58 am
I wish him well, but I think this is the end of the campaign for Bernie. He's not going to be able to shake off the age issue after this.
Depends in part what the short and long-term impact of this will be on him and his ability to vigorously campaign. He doesn't seem to give up easily, and he can use this (and the resulting media attention) to drive a "I won't stop fighting for the people" narrative.
Given the state of the polls, though (Warren surging, looking to be roughly in a tie with Biden, Sanders polling looking semi-grim), I wonder whether there might be some discussion in Sanders-land of withdrawing and endorsing Warren.
If Warren picks up most of Bernie's backers, she's the frontrunner. Especially if Biden and Ukraine keep being mentioned in the same breath.
Archinerd wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:58 am
I wish him well, but I think this is the end of the campaign for Bernie. He's not going to be able to shake off the age issue after this.
Depends in part what the short and long-term impact of this will be on him and his ability to vigorously campaign. He doesn't seem to give up easily, and he can use this (and the resulting media attention) to drive a "I won't stop fighting for the people" narrative.
Given the state of the polls, though (Warren surging, looking to be roughly in a tie with Biden, Sanders polling looking semi-grim), I wonder whether there might be some discussion in Sanders-land of withdrawing and endorsing Warren.
If Warren picks up most of Bernie's backers, she's the frontrunner. Especially if Biden and Ukraine keep being mentioned in the same breath.
I think that would be the carrot for Bernie to drop-out. Basically to likely make Warren the clear frontrunner at this point.
On your second point, I'm less sure that the Ukraine situation is bad for Biden right now. Outside of Fox News (which Democratic primary voters largely aren't watching) this is being covered in the framework of a Trump scandal (Trump trying to gin up opposition on a domestic political rival, and not in a "potential Biden scandal" way. Which is ideal for Biden, and which paints him as (1) someone who Trump is most worried about; and (2) as a Trump target / victim of sorts.
Also speaking personally, as someone who was worried before this about Trump's ability to gin up a Clinton-esque faux scandal of Biden, I'm marginally less worried now, because it's going to be virtually impossible for Trump (if Biden were the nominee) to generate the kind of media coverage that he would want on this stuff. He could create some smoke for sure, but a lot of the media coverage about any faux Ukraine / Biden scandal would wind up being largely focused on Trump's behavior in ginning up the scandal.
Archinerd wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:58 am
I wish him well, but I think this is the end of the campaign for Bernie. He's not going to be able to shake off the age issue after this.
Depends in part what the short and long-term impact of this will be on him and his ability to vigorously campaign. He doesn't seem to give up easily, and he can use this (and the resulting media attention) to drive a "I won't stop fighting for the people" narrative.
Given the state of the polls, though (Warren surging, looking to be roughly in a tie with Biden, Sanders polling looking semi-grim), I wonder whether there might be some discussion in Sanders-land of withdrawing and endorsing Warren.
If Warren picks up most of Bernie's backers, she's the frontrunner. Especially if Biden and Ukraine keep being mentioned in the same breath.
I think that would be the carrot for Bernie to drop-out. Basically to likely make Warren the clear frontrunner at this point.
On your second point, I'm less sure that the Ukraine situation is bad for Biden right now. Outside of Fox News (which Democratic primary voters largely aren't watching) this is being covered in the framework of a Trump scandal (Trump trying to gin up opposition on a domestic political rival, and not in a "potential Biden scandal" way. Which is ideal for Biden, and which paints him as (1) someone who Trump is most worried about; and (2) as a Trump target / victim of sorts.
Also speaking personally, as someone who was worried before this about Trump's ability to gin up a Clinton-esque faux scandal of Biden, I'm marginally less worried now, because it's going to be virtually impossible for Trump (if Biden were the nominee) to generate the kind of media coverage that he would want on this stuff. He could create some smoke for sure, but a lot of the media coverage about any faux Ukraine / Biden scandal would wind up being largely focused on Trump's behavior in ginning up the scandal.
I am more concerned about the effect of a steady drumbeat of "Biden" and "scandal" on the vast majority of voters who only pay loose attention. Even if the majority of it is of the "Biden not guilty" variety, people will still associate Biden and scandal, and everyone except the MAGAhats is sick of scandals. I don't think this will affect him much during the primaries, because those are engaged voters. But I do worry about it if he becomes the nominee, when all the low-information voters matter.
Archinerd wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:58 am
I wish him well, but I think this is the end of the campaign for Bernie. He's not going to be able to shake off the age issue after this.
Depends in part what the short and long-term impact of this will be on him and his ability to vigorously campaign. He doesn't seem to give up easily, and he can use this (and the resulting media attention) to drive a "I won't stop fighting for the people" narrative.
Given the state of the polls, though (Warren surging, looking to be roughly in a tie with Biden, Sanders polling looking semi-grim), I wonder whether there might be some discussion in Sanders-land of withdrawing and endorsing Warren.
If Warren picks up most of Bernie's backers, she's the frontrunner. Especially if Biden and Ukraine keep being mentioned in the same breath.
I think that would be the carrot for Bernie to drop-out. Basically to likely make Warren the clear frontrunner at this point.
On your second point, I'm less sure that the Ukraine situation is bad for Biden right now. Outside of Fox News (which Democratic primary voters largely aren't watching) this is being covered in the framework of a Trump scandal (Trump trying to gin up opposition on a domestic political rival, and not in a "potential Biden scandal" way. Which is ideal for Biden, and which paints him as (1) someone who Trump is most worried about; and (2) as a Trump target / victim of sorts.
Also speaking personally, as someone who was worried before this about Trump's ability to gin up a Clinton-esque faux scandal of Biden, I'm marginally less worried now, because it's going to be virtually impossible for Trump (if Biden were the nominee) to generate the kind of media coverage that he would want on this stuff. He could create some smoke for sure, but a lot of the media coverage about any faux Ukraine / Biden scandal would wind up being largely focused on Trump's behavior in ginning up the scandal.
I am more concerned about the effect of a steady drumbeat of "Biden" and "scandal" on the vast majority of voters who only pay loose attention. Even if the majority of it is of the "Biden not guilty" variety, people will still associate Biden and scandal, and everyone except the MAGAhats is sick of scandals. I don't think this will affect him much during the primaries, because those are engaged voters. But I do worry about it if he becomes the nominee, when all the low-information voters matter.
I do worry about that as well. But then, as long as Barr is his AG I think Trump's going to have a lot of power to put [Nominee] and Scandal in headlines, mostly regardless of who the democratic nominee is. Trump's been focused on Biden, but I think that's mainly because Biden has been the clear frontrunner. Assuming Warren maintains or gains further ground, I would expect that Trump would focus on her more (if he's not already). I would actually be somewhat surprised if Barr didn't wind up opening an investigation into whether Warren committed fraud in connection with the 'fauxohauntas' bullshit, for example. When you have the AG in your pocket it's easy to generate a scandal.
It's going to be the dirtiest campaign of a lifetime, that's for sure. Possibly violently so. And I expect that most of that dirt will be generated from one place. The Democrat doesn't have to invent anything (assuming Trump is the nominee) beyond pointing out the filth that's on public display every day.
Trumps base doesn't care about anything so they wont change. I expect a lot of dirt and violence from them though in the country.
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I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein "I don't stand by anything." - Trump “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867 “It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
The Washington GOP seems a lot like The Westboro Church is to its followers.
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I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
Well, I agree that every voter should hear the facts before casting even a single ballot. Better to hear them before your first ballot rather than your third or fourth.
.
Daehawk wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:24 pm
Trumps base doesn't care about anything so they wont change. I expect a lot of dirt and violence from them though in the country.
The base doesn't matter. Nobody is targeting the base, as nothing will affect them. It's the fence-sitters that matter.
Well, that and getting the Dem base off their asses on election day.
Ugh, there's going to be 12 candidates for the next Democratic debate. What a shit show but Warren seems to do well in the scrum at least. But what a waste of air time.
Black lives matter!
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
Drazzil wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:11 pm
If I found out Warren bedded a marine half her age I'd have trouble not filing that in the "haha awesome!" category myself. Is she even married?
hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:11 pm
I thought Wohl was in jail for his last stunt with Mueller? That was a fantastically hilarious disaster for him.
Jacob Wohl – the deceptive, pro-Trump internet hoaxer who was banned from Twitter in February after receiving national attention – has been charged with illegal sale of securities.
Riverside, California, Superior Court records show the felony charge was issued on Aug. 19. The charge stems from an incident that allegedly occurred in July 2016, the records say.
On Wednesday, an arraignment for Wohl was scheduled for Oct. 24, according to The Daily Beast and online court records.
Wohl told NBC News that a warrant for his arrest had been recalled, and Wohl appeared in court Wednesday, the network reports, citing the Riverside County District Attorney's Office. He was released on his own recognizance.
