The Former Trump Presidency Thread

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:49 am

Even for me, this got weird.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:06 am

hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:49 am Even for me, this got weird.

Ladies and gentlemen,

The Trump Presidency Thread

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:59 pm

This shit again:

Trump wrote:The NFL National Anthem Debate is alive and well again - can’t believe it! Isn’t it in contract that players must stand at attention, hand on heart? The $40,000,000 Commissioner must now make a stand. First time kneeling, out for game. Second time kneeling, out for season/no pay!

Is it any surprise that he drags out the racism when everything else is falling apart for him?

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:58 pm

There's not nearly as many Russian bots/MAGAites defending him in the comments these days.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:31 pm

Pay Trump the respect he feels he deserves or pay the price.

I’m getting closer every day to being okay with comparing him to Hitler.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:33 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:31 pm Pay Trump the respect he feels he deserves or pay the price.

I’m getting closer every day to being okay with comparing him to Hitler.

I think it's officially OK.

Spoiler:

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:37 pm

I'm still of the mind that until they actually do things like, you know, mass murder, there are more appropriate comparisons that should be scary enough.

When you compare people to Nazis arbitrarily, it's very easy for those you're trying to persuade to dismiss your accusation as hyperbole.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:00 am

Defiant wrote: ↑Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:37 pm I'm still of the mind that until they actually do things like, you know, mass murder, there are more appropriate comparisons that should be scary enough.

When you compare people to Nazis arbitrarily, it's very easy for those you're trying to persuade to dismiss your accusation as hyperbole.

I'm not so sure we should wait for that. As the meme says, If you've ever wondered what you would have done if you'd been a German in the 1930s...you're doing it now.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:29 am

Your Favorite President wrote:Inconceivable that the government would break into a lawyer’s office (early in the morning) - almost unheard of. Even more inconceivable that a lawyer would tape a client - totally unheard of & perhaps illegal. The good news is that your favorite President did nothing wrong!

It's looking like Trump's team has engaged fully with the Cohen case again because they're hoping it gets Helsinki out of the news.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:33 am

Hey, at least Trump seems to be realizing that my favorite President likely did nothing wrong.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:17 am

Holman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:29 am

Your Favorite President wrote:Inconceivable that the government would break into a lawyer’s office (early in the morning) - almost unheard of. Even more inconceivable that a lawyer would tape a client - totally unheard of & perhaps illegal. The good news is that your favorite President did nothing wrong!

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:47 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:00 am
Defiant wrote: ↑Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:37 pm I'm still of the mind that until they actually do things like, you know, mass murder, there are more appropriate comparisons that should be scary enough.

When you compare people to Nazis arbitrarily, it's very easy for those you're trying to persuade to dismiss your accusation as hyperbole.
I'm not so sure we should wait for that. As the meme says, If you've ever wondered what you would have done if you'd been a German in the 1930s...you're doing it now.

If Trump is the equivalent of Hitler, then every single dictator and tyrant and authoritarian of any stripe was as bad as Hitler. When everyone is as bad as Hitler, then no one is Hitler.

There are better, more appropriate comparisons.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:16 pm

Hitler's a good shorthand for "totalitarian" because everybody knows who he was, and everybody except the Trumpsters agrees that he was a very bad man. The things we see Trump doing now -- dehumanizing minority groups, vilifying the press, demanding loyalty above all else, sowing discord, spreading lies, fanning nationalism, and so on -- are right out of the same totalitarian playbook that Hitler followed. So the comparison is not without merit.

That said, Trump's crimes against humanity have obviously not reached Nazi levels and probably (hopefully!) never will. One can find as many differences as similarities between the two tyrants (and I've seen arguments that Mussolini is a better model anyway). Trump is not Hitler, but he's doing a good impression of Hitler Lite. If the comparison helps motivate enough opposition to prevent Trump from reaching his potential, then it is useful.

But you're right: Hitler is in a league of his own, and Trump's more like a banana republic presidente with delusions of grandeur. Nobody would give him a second thought if his banana republic wasn't the most powerful nation on the planet.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:29 pm

So he's like early career Hitler. He's on pace and has the means to be an all timer like Hitler but he's not there yet.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:13 pm

Defiant wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:47 pm There are better, more appropriate comparisons.

Such as?

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:35 pm

Defiant wrote:
Kraken wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:00 am
Defiant wrote: ↑Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:37 pm I'm still of the mind that until they actually do things like, you know, mass murder, there are more appropriate comparisons that should be scary enough.

When you compare people to Nazis arbitrarily, it's very easy for those you're trying to persuade to dismiss your accusation as hyperbole.
I'm not so sure we should wait for that. As the meme says, If you've ever wondered what you would have done if you'd been a German in the 1930s...you're doing it now.
If Trump is the equivalent of Hitler, then every single dictator and tyrant and authoritarian of any stripe was as bad as Hitler. When everyone is as bad as Hitler, then no one is Hitler.

There are better, more appropriate comparisons.

This is incorrect. A key piece of being compared to Hitler is spreading hatred of minority/religious groups of citizens and to some degree, fomenting violence against them. Not all dictators do this, but Trump is.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:35 pm

Max Peck wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:13 pm
Defiant wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:47 pm There are better, more appropriate comparisons.
Such as?

I'm not a historian, but how about Caligula? Or pretty much any authoritarian or tyrant or dictator or wannabees that hasn't committed mass murder?

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:44 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:35 pm
This is incorrect. A key piece of being compared to Hitler is spreading hatred of minority/religious groups of citizens and to some degree, fomenting violence against them. Not all dictators do this, but Trump is.

Not all dictators may do that, but there are more than enough that have.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:52 pm

We're comparing Trump's ambitions to historical dictators' achievements, so it's always going to seem unbalanced. If Trump's achievements matched his ambitions, it would be too late for comparison anyway.

That said, I think the best comparison is... Vladimir Putin.

Trump wants what to be what Putin is: top oligarch in a pseudo-democracy that can't vote him out or meaningfully restrain him. The goal isn't to rule the whole world but to be the richest and most powerful decider, uncontested and uncriticized.

This doesn't even invalidate the things that lead us towards Hitler comparisons: appeals to nativism and racism, scapegoat scare-mongering, the cult of the strongman, the union of reactionary politics with industrial power, etc.

Trump doesn't want to conquer Asia or engineer Shoah 2.0. He just wants to sit on a golden toilet while lesser oligarchs line up to praise him.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:55 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:29 pm So he's like early career Hitler. He's on pace and has the means to be an all timer like Hitler but he's not there yet.

Kind of. He lacks Hitler's brains, drive, and relative youth. But he's on a similar trajectory.

Max Peck wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:13 pm
Defiant wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:47 pm There are better, more appropriate comparisons.
Such as?

I mentioned Mussolini in passing. Here's an argument for that.

From A.J.P. Taylor, quoted in Bosworth: “Fascism never possessed the ruthless drive, let alone the material strength, of National Socialism. Morally it was just as corrupting — or perhaps more so from its very dishonesty. Everything about Fascism was a fraud. The social peril from which it saved Italy was a fraud; the revolution by which it seized power was a fraud; the ability and policy of Mussolini were fraudulent. Fascist rule was corrupt, incompetent, empty; Mussolini himself a vain, blundering boaster without either ideas or aims.” pg 344
...
Two additional comparisons —one with with Hitler and one with Putin — are also relevant here. Hitler and Nazi-ism have both similarities and differences with Trump and Trumpism, but both include the style of creating multiple competing power centers, to be adjudicated by the ultimate authority. This not only creates chaos, it also encourages striving to produce the positions, actions, and proposals that will most powerfully capture what the Leader will bestow favor upon. It nurtures what came to be called “Working toward the Fuhrer.” It is a formula for extremism.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:56 pm

Defiant wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:35 pm
Max Peck wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:13 pm
Defiant wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:47 pm There are better, more appropriate comparisons.
Such as?
I'm not a historian, but how about Caligula? Or pretty much any authoritarian or tyrant or dictator or wannabees that hasn't committed mass murder?

I'm pretty sure that Trump is more like Hitler than he is like Caligula. I mean, does he even like horses?

And unlike Caligula, Trump has nothing to fear from the Senate.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:28 pm

Trump is no Hitler because he is not true believer. Trump doesn’t believe in much of anything. I think he’s basically an amoral person. He, as has been shown time and time again, blows with wind. He ran as a Republican, but if the cards had fallen right he just as easily have run as a Democrat. If you go to Wikipedia, Trump’s been all over the place politically. He was once a Democrat, another time an independent. For an issue example, though now he is against global warming now, back in 2009 he and his kids took out a full page newspaper ad talking about global warming and urging steps to be taken to mitigate it.

Trump largely takes the positions he does because they resonate with his base. He panders to them. If he was a Democrat he’d just as easily pander to a Democratic base. I think about the only real thing he believes in are his protectionist trade views and maybe his views on immigration (I’m not sure if he’s a true believer there or just uses that for political purposes). I do think it’s pretty clear he doesn’t like being restrained by laws, the Constitution, etc, but he hardly has evidenced a plan or program for subverting the Constitution such as Hitler had. He looks pretty incompetent as a subverter of the Constitution.

Simply put, Trump’s a demogogue. People want historical examples that are better than Hitler so I’ll give you some. He’s much closer to a Juan Peron (Argentina) or even a Hugo Chavez (Venezuela). As noted above, if Trump’s a Hitler, then so are a lot of others that have never been so compared or considered.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:23 pm

Max Peck wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:13 pm
Defiant wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:47 pm There are better, more appropriate comparisons.
Such as?

Sometimes I see Ron Burgundy.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:15 am

Donald Trump is far more like Benito Mussolini than he like Adolf Hitler.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:48 am

Holman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:52 pm We're comparing Trump's ambitions to historical dictators' achievements, so it's always going to seem unbalanced. If Trump's achievements matched his ambitions, it would be too late for comparison anyway.

That said, I think the best comparison is... Vladimir Putin.

Trump wants what to be what Putin is: top oligarch in a pseudo-democracy that can't vote him out or meaningfully restrain him. The goal isn't to rule the whole world but to be the richest and most powerful decider, uncontested and uncriticized.

This doesn't even invalidate the things that lead us towards Hitler comparisons: appeals to nativism and racism, scapegoat scare-mongering, the cult of the strongman, the union of reactionary politics with industrial power, etc.

Trump doesn't want to conquer Asia or engineer Shoah 2.0. He just wants to sit on a golden toilet while lesser oligarchs line up to praise him.

I'd agree with this. He worships Putin, regardless of possible pee tapes. Putin is all the hyperbole that Trump loves. He's the richest and single most powerful man in the world. Unfortunately for Trump, and possibly fortunately for us, he doesn't have the chops to be a Putin. Unfortunately for us, he'll settle for being an orange a pale immitation.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:54 pm

I posted my first political post on Facebook since Trump has been elected due to this article. But I think this kind of reasoning is the only chance we have at un-brainwashing certain Trump voters.

Charles Sykes: As a conservative, I despair at Republicans' support for Trump. His vision is not conservatism.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:00 pm

Huh what about that. The vice President was just up the road from me yesterday. I could have reached out and slapped him. But as a reflection of how much I notice I did not even know he was in town never mind just up the road.

Stefan Stirzaker · Post by **Stefan Stirzaker** » Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:31 pm

Someone said bad word so he made demented threats

To Iranian President Rouhani: NEVER, EVER THREATEN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN OR YOU WILL SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE. WE ARE NO LONGER A COUNTRY THAT WILL STAND FOR YOUR DEMENTED WORDS OF VIOLENCE & DEATH. BE CAUTIOUS!

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:18 am

That'll knock Russia out of the headlines for a few days.

Chaz · Post by **Chaz** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:44 am

It had to be Iran that's the next distraction. North Korea's a solved problem, right?

In the Washington Post article about it, the Pompeo speech that kicked this all off talked a lot about how the Iranian regime is Mafia kleptocracy basically just trying to enrich itself as much as possible, and I'm like "huh, that sounds a lot like the Trump administration."

We're also talking about pushing a lot harder on trying to incite the people to overthrow the government, which seems like a super sketchy thing to be doing overtly in light of what Russia's been doing accused of doing but it's TOTALLY MADE UP WITCH HUNT HILLARY DISTRACTION EXCUSES FOR LOSING THE ELECTION.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:01 am

Stefan Stirzaker wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:31 pm Someone said bad word so he made demented threats

To Iranian President Rouhani: NEVER, EVER THREATEN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN OR YOU WILL SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE. WE ARE NO LONGER A COUNTRY THAT WILL STAND FOR YOUR DEMENTED WORDS OF VIOLENCE & DEATH. BE CAUTIOUS!

All caps. The Toddler means business!

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:14 am

"CEASE YOUR DEMENTED THREATS OF VIOLENCE AND DEATH OR BE ANNIHILATED!!" is too rich.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:32 am

$iljanus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:01 am
Stefan Stirzaker wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:31 pm Someone said bad word so he made demented threats

To Iranian President Rouhani: NEVER, EVER THREATEN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN OR YOU WILL SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE. WE ARE NO LONGER A COUNTRY THAT WILL STAND FOR YOUR DEMENTED WORDS OF VIOLENCE & DEATH. BE CAUTIOUS!
All caps. The Toddler means business!

Or he accidentally hit caps lock again and can’t figure out how to turn it off.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:28 am

This is where I wish I could crawl into the mind of a Trump supporter. "You know what, the President screaming at a foreign leader in all caps IS a very effective foreign policy strategy."

Though at least Trump is angry when he writes in all caps. My mother-in-law posts stuff on Facebook like, "WE HAD A GREAT TIME AT THE BIRTHDAY PARTY TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!"

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:33 am

Stefan Stirzaker wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:31 pm Someone said bad word so he made demented threats

To Iranian President Rouhani: NEVER, EVER THREATEN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN OR YOU WILL SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE. WE ARE NO LONGER A COUNTRY THAT WILL STAND FOR YOUR DEMENTED WORDS OF VIOLENCE & DEATH. BE CAUTIOUS!

I thought you were jokingly paraphrasing something he said, and didn't realize that's the communication he actually sent out to the world.

What the fuck??

Fitzy · Post by **Fitzy** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:34 am

He's just following a long and storied history of the US resolving diplomatic crises with Tweets in all caps. I mean, who can forget the founding of our own country?

WE, THEREFORE, THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, IN GENERAL CONGRESS, ASSEMBLED, APPEALING TO THE SUPREME JUDGE OF THE WORLD FOR THE RECTITUDE OF OUR INTENTIONS, DO, IN THE NAME, AND BY AUTHORITY OF THE GOOD PEOPLE OF THESE COLONIES, SOLEMNLY PUBLISH AND DECLARE, THAT THESE UNITED COLONIES ARE, AND OF RIGHT OUGHT TO BE FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; THAT THEY ARE ABSOLVED FROM ALL ALLEGIANCE TO THE BRITISH CROWN, AND THAT ALL POLITICAL CONNECTION BETWEEN THEM AND THE STATE OF GREAT BRITAIN, IS AND OUGHT TO BE TOTALLY DISSOLVED; AND THAT AS FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES, THEY HAVE FULL POWER TO LEVY WAR, CONCLUDE PEACE, CONTRACT ALLIANCES, ESTABLISH COMMERCE, AND TO DO ALL OTHER ACTS AND THINGS WHICH INDEPENDENT STATES MAY OF RIGHT DO. AND FOR THE SUPPORT OF THIS DECLARATION, WITH A FIRM RELIANCE ON THE PROTECTION OF DIVINE PROVIDENCE, WE MUTUALLY PLEDGE TO EACH OTHER OUR LIVES, OUR FORTUNES AND OUR SACRED HONOR.

It bring a tear to my eye to see him carrying on such a rich tradition.

Chaz · Post by **Chaz** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:36 am

I think the Trump supporter would be thrilled that we're being all big and tough and not taking any crap from anybody. Trump's persona is "I'm the biggest alpha male around. I'll screw your wife and you'll either thank me for it, or I'll punch you in the face if you say anything about it." They think other countries have been "kicking us around" for too long, and America has been way too soft on them because we keep trying to negotiate and come to peaceful compromise, when compromise is obviously weakness, and we should be telling them to do what we say or we'll blow the hell out of them.

So for that sort of people, this kind of thing is actually great.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:41 am

Are Trump followers aware that Twitter is blocked in Iran?

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:44 am

Holman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:14 am "CEASE YOUR DEMENTED THREATS OF VIOLENCE AND DEATH OR BE ANNIHILATED!!" is too rich.

It may have a certain appeal to Biblical end of the world types. It sounds straight out of a fundamentalist regime press release.

What a fucking idiot. So when Iran issues a "come at me bro" statement, we either back down, looking inept and impotent, or we go to war over a swipe at our president's ego. Master negotiator indeed.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:56 am

Holman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:41 am Are Trump followers aware that Twitter is blocked in Iran?

Are Trump followers aware?