The Former Trump Presidency Thread

[GreenGoo]

You will feel even worse when you see they don't.

Nothing to indicate the next election will see much more turnout than any other has. Looking for help from the non-voting masses is futile.

But the 2nd amendment folks, maybe there is something they can do. I don't know.

[Fitzy]

My argument then and now is that there will be plenty of time getting the hangnail fixed when the leprosy (was probably cancer last time I did this) is exorcised. If people have the stamina, interest and willpower to deal with both at the same time, great. I just don't think they do. Not to mention you kind of have to use the hangnail to remove the leprosy first. What do you do with the hangnail after? I'm not sure. I'm damn sure I want the leprosy taken care of though. I might be able to live with a hangnail, but the leprosy is almost certainly going to kill all of us, and worse, seems to have that as its main motivation.

Of course. But right now, given the math, voting for a third-party candidate does.

FTFY. I hate that this is the truth, but this is the truth today. Every concerned citizen needs to vote in Nov, and needs to vote D top to bottom. Sorting out beyond that is an issue for 2019 and beyond.

This is an unbelievably inopportune moment to rail against the 2 party system.

If you hate it, imagine how I feel agreeing with you.

There is a very clear consensus here that Trump is the most dangerous thing in the world right now. I happen to think he’s a horrific president who needs to be removed and/or neutered as soon as possible, though only through legal means.

I also think the attitude expressed in the quotes above is very close to as dangerous as Trump.

You are literally saying there is only one way to think.

I know you guys aren’t seeing it and I cannot express my fear well enough to convince you or even give you pause that maybe this isn’t a healthy way to move our country forward. And that’s your right. It’s entirely possible I’m wrong and everything will be fine.

I hope it works out. I really do. My fear is that we are going to keep going down this path of more and more “right think” until there is no way to heal the fracturing of the country.

[GreenGoo]

Sigh.

Consensus is very clearly tyranny of the masses.

You can think what you like. That doesn't mean people aren't going to evaluate those thoughts based on their merits or lack thereof.

I personally think your priorities are out of whack with reality, but sure, feel free to keep having them. You're golden.

[Holman]

Good grief, Fitzy. We are not saying "There is only one way to think."

None of us are mindless DEM-ONLY drones. If Democrats stood for prison camps and trashing the Constitution they would not be worth supporting, but the clear fact is that they are not anywhere near that dangerous territory, and right now they are the -only- legislative bulwark against tyranny as it currently threatens us.

In 2018, Democrats stand for the rule of law and a return to accountability in ways that Trump obviously does not, and Republicans are obviously unwilling to step up and join them.

A first-past-the-post system means that there are only and can be only two parties. As long as that is the case, you have a choice between Democrats and Republicans, and only them. The specifics of your local race will tell you which one your third-party vote helps more than the other.

[Fitzy]

Good grief, Fitzy. We are not saying "There is only one way to think."

None of us are mindless DEM-ONLY drones. If Democrats stood for prison camps and trashing the Constitution they would not be worth supporting, but the clear fact is that they are not anywhere near that dangerous territory, and right now they are the -only- legislative bulwark against tyranny as it currently threatens us.

In 2018, Democrats stand for the rule of law and a return to accountability in ways that Trump obviously does not, and Republicans are obviously unwilling to step up and join them.

A first-past-the-post system means that there are only and can be only two parties. As long as that is the case, you have a choice between Democrats and Republicans, and only them. The specifics of your local race will tell you which one your third-party vote helps more than the other.

Satire?

[Alefroth]

Agreed. I've always felt like dealing with politics was often the choice between a dogshit taco in one hand and a bottle of urine in the other. You've got to consume one or the other if you're voting. If you're not voting, you're letting other people choose for you.

For the longest time I chose not to vote, but started when Trump became a real threat. I voted for the bottle of urine, but not because I thought drinking pee would be awesome.

More like a dogshit taco in one hand and a yam enchilada in the other. While one might not be delicious, it's still food.

[Holman]

Satire?

No, it isn't.

Your argument seems to be "The system is so bad that Democrats would support a Trumpian autocrat if they had one!"

That's a flimsy hypothetical on which to hang real-world and consequential actual-existing-autocrat-supporting inaction.

[Fitzy]

Satire?

No, it isn't.

Your argument seems to be "The system is so bad that Democrats would support a Trumpian autocrat if they had one!"

That's a flimsy hypothetical on which to hang real-world and consequential actual-existing-autocrat-supporting inaction.

Did you read what you wrote? You claimed you weren’t supporting “There is only one to think” and then proceeded to explain why there was only one way to think...excepting you last statement which allowed that voting third party would be ok depending on the location, with what I took as an implied, so long as that doesn’t result in a Republican. Sorry if that was wrong.

Yes, I believe that the Democrats would support a Trump like person, though their autocracy would be different. For example, shutting down ill defined “hate speech”, limiting religious freedom, nationalizing private enterprise, basically 1984. I don’t see any current Democrat as charismatic or crazy enough to pull it off.

I want real, legitimate change, not inaction. I think Trump is the worst possible person to have in the Presidency. I also think we have been moving steadily towards a more divided political climate driven by a need to be more extreme to appeal to primary voters, gerrymandering and the 24/7 battle for ratings among cable news plus the more recent self segregation and lack of responsibility enabled by the internet. It’s easy to find communities you agree with and block or ignore people you disagree with, leading to a greater amount of extremism. How many conservatives are willing to speak up on R&P here? My major disagreement in this thread is the degree to which I’m anti-Trump and anti-GOP and I’m the enemy!

Given that, electing the Democrats and saying we’ll take care of any problems with them later is difficult for me to believe. How exactly is that going to work? Are the Republicans suddenly going to regain their moral compass that many here seem to think is gone? When the Democrats start passing legislation I disagree with, should I say “oh well, at least they aren’t trump?” Who would I turn to? The GOP, for which I disagree heavily on most issues? You’re telling me i have to support the Democrats unconditionally for now because there only two parties and the GOP are obviously not supporting the constitution. What’s going to change after 2019? Who do I vote for if I want to hold the Democrats accountable for taking stances I disagree with?

I’d rather take action now. I’d rather vote for moderate Democrats or moderate third party candidates who will stand up to Trump, but be accountable to more than the “At least I’m not Trump” standard. I’d rather push for change now, while so many people are starting to see problems. Because I honestly am not seeing the way to hold the Democrats accountable afterward.

Tldr

Yes, I want Trump gone. Preferably to jail.
Yes, I want the GOP to stop being crazy.
No, I’m not willing to achieve either of those goals unconditionally.

[Holman]

Did you read what you wrote?

Yes, I did. Thanks for checking.

You claimed you weren’t supporting “There is only one to think” and then proceeded to explain why there was only one way to think...excepting you last statement which allowed that voting third party would be ok depending on the location, with what I took as an implied, so long as that doesn’t result in a Republican. Sorry if that was wrong.

Did you read what I wrote? I pointed out that under present circumstances the Dems are clearly opposed to the kind of autocracy Trump desires and the GOP facilitates. If the Dems looked otherwise, I wouldn't support them, and neither would you. But do you actually see that going on?

Your argument is basically that Dems have positions, and if we gave them absolute power then it would corrupt them absolutely. That may or may not be true, but they're very unlikely to achieve absolute power anytime soon, and given our present system they are the only viable legislative defense against it. Again, first-past-the-post: in 2018 you go Dem or GOP, directly or indirectly. Even not voting at all does this.

The rest of your argument ("What if they take everything and then they're bad?") is so hypothetical that I prefer to let it ride. If you're worried that any party that achieves power will be tyrannical, I can only ask why the risk of real existing tyranny is so much greater right now (as I believe it is) than it ever has been.

I'd also ask how this argument would ever allow you to vote for *any* party (which, if they won, would necessarily become the powerful first-tier authority you condemn the Dems for being).

Yes, I want Trump gone. Preferably to jail.
Yes, I want the GOP to stop being crazy.
No, I’m not willing to achieve either of those goals unconditionally.

No one is asking you to support the Dems "unconditionally." We're asking you to do it under the conditions of 2018/2020.

[Rip]

What is crazy is everyone screaming Trump is a dictator and he is leading us to tyranny. We are talking about the same guy who disliked the AT&T merger but was/is powerless to stop it. If he is a tyrant/dictator he is the worst one in all of history because he can't get shit done that doesn't have substantial support from other branches of government. That is not tyranny by any measure.

[ImLawBoy]

What is crazy is everyone screaming Trump is a dictator and he is leading us to tyranny. We are talking about the same guy who disliked the AT&T merger but was/is powerless to stop it. If he is a tyrant/dictator he is the worst one in all of history because he can't get shit done that doesn't have substantial support from other branches of government. That is not tyranny by any measure.

Don't be obtuse. The point is that he wants to get to that level of tyranny, not that he's already there.

[LordMortis]

What is crazy is everyone screaming Trump is a dictator and he is leading us to tyranny. and concentrates power and behaves like he wants to be a dictator

Fixed so your ravings reflect reality and pretending you actually care. We still have a vote and we consider it meaningful. I have yet to meet a single sane person deny that. What's he's achieved so far is to show how fragile our government is without yet breaking it. He has shown that that new normal can be accomplished in a matter of months and that this normal can be absolutely despicable.

But as far as I know, we still have the peaceful transition of government. This is why everyone is screaming and everyone is not rioting. He generates a fear that I'm going to have get off my couch and be a part of something I didn't think was possible in my country. And he play into that fear. He enjoys it. And Congress plays in to it.

But as far as I can tell not a single person I wouldn't shut down in conversation has said denied there is a peaceful transition of power and that is the approach we are waiting for. OtOH, we do fear it. Oh do we fear it. That's the whole point of wanting the investigations in to Russian tampering. That's the whole point of insisting Mueller finish his investigation. Mueller can't impeach Fucko. That's Congress and we already know that no matter the findings Congress won't do it. Heck, they've loudly and publicly declared the matter officially closed with a sort of finality, what, four times now?

[Rip]

What is crazy is everyone screaming Trump is a dictator and he is leading us to tyranny. We are talking about the same guy who disliked the AT&T merger but was/is powerless to stop it. If he is a tyrant/dictator he is the worst one in all of history because he can't get shit done that doesn't have substantial support from other branches of government. That is not tyranny by any measure.

Don't be obtuse. The point is that he wants to get to that level of tyranny, not that he's already there.

Which is just silly. He can't even do something like ban Uber that Rodogan just did.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turk ... SKCN1IY0FI

Dictator are made by the changing of laws to give them more power and remove limits to how long they can rule. Trump hasn't hasn't extended the power of the office on iota, although many before him did and there is ZERO chance they he could serve beyond the eight years many other have. Silly shit like that is why many of the legitimate complaints are ignored. Over the top reactions to stuff is just as damaging as the people who pay no attention.

Same way the screaming he is certainly without a doubt going to tank the economy is a dangerous thing, because when it doesn't tank all the people who may have had a little doubt about him are given justification for ignoring the hyperbole.

[Rip]

What is crazy is everyone screaming Trump is a dictator and he is leading us to tyranny. and concentrates power and behaves like he wants to be a dictator

Fixed so your ravings reflect reality and pretending you actually care. We still have a vote and we consider it meaningful. I have yet to meet a single sane person deny that. What's he's achieved so far is to show how fragile our government is without yet breaking it. He has shown that that new normal can be accomplished in a matter of months and that this normal can be absolutely despicable.

But as far as I know, we still have the peaceful transition of government. This is why everyone is screaming and everyone is not rioting. He generates a fear that I'm going to have get off my couch and be a part of something I didn't think was possible in my country. And he play into that fear. He enjoys it. And Congress plays in to it.

But as far as I can tell not a single person I wouldn't shut down in conversation has said denied there is a peaceful transition of power and that is the approach we are waiting for. OtOH, we do fear it. Oh do we fear it. That's the whole point of wanting the investigations in to Russian tampering. That's the whole point of insisting Mueller finish his investigation. Mueller can't impeach Fucko. That's Congress and we already know that no matter the findings Congress won't do it. Heck, they've loudly and publicly declared the matter officially closed with a sort of finality, what, four times now?

Really, what has he accomplished that actually has given him more power than previous presidents?

You guys sound as kookie as the people that predicted Obama would refuse to leave office etc.

[GreenGoo]

Why are you working so hard to defend the monster rip? The mental gymnastics I watch you go through everyday is exhausting to me, it must be incredibly taxing to you.

We show you 40 different acts in 1 week, you show us 1 semi-related idea to the contrary and consider those 40 acts refuted. Better than refuted, undermined as silly.

You are as much an enemy of the people as Drumpf thinks the free press is. I blame you and people like you for Drumpf.

You are the problem rip. I thought you'd stop when Drumpf finally got his hands on the reins, but you haven't.

You act like a russian social media bot but you're American and you say these things voluntarily.

I consider you an enemy of America, and I don't say that lightly. I don't know what happened in your life to cause you to betray the ideals of your country, but it is completely obvious to me that you and your country parted ways awhile ago.

At least the Russian bot wranglers get paid.

You should probably thank god MacArthy isn't still around. I know I do, but then again I value the freedoms Drumpf is chipping away at, that he TELLS us he wants to chip away at.

Your posts are not those of a troll any longer, they are those of a bad American intent on mitigating the outrage directed at a cancerous lesion infesting the WH.

I am well aware that you don't care what I say, but just like you I will continue to say it.

[Fitzy]

Did you read what you wrote?

Yes, I did. Thanks for checking.

You claimed you weren’t supporting “There is only one to think” and then proceeded to explain why there was only one way to think...excepting you last statement which allowed that voting third party would be ok depending on the location, with what I took as an implied, so long as that doesn’t result in a Republican. Sorry if that was wrong.

Did you read what I wrote? I pointed out that under present circumstances the Dems are clearly opposed to the kind of autocracy Trump desires and the GOP facilitates. If the Dems looked otherwise, I wouldn't support them, and neither would you. But do you actually see that going on?

Your argument is basically that Dems have positions, and if we gave them absolute power then it would corrupt them absolutely. That may or may not be true, but they're very unlikely to achieve absolute power anytime soon, and given our present system they are the only viable legislative defense against it. Again, first-past-the-post: in 2018 you go Dem or GOP, directly or indirectly. Even not voting at all does this.

The rest of your argument ("What if they take everything and then they're bad?") is so hypothetical that I prefer to let it ride. If you're worried that any party that achieves power will be tyrannical, I can only ask why the risk of real existing tyranny is so much greater right now (as I believe it is) than it ever has been.

I'd also ask how this argument would ever allow you to vote for *any* party (which, if they won, would necessarily become the powerful first-tier authority you condemn the Dems for being).

Yes, I want Trump gone. Preferably to jail.
Yes, I want the GOP to stop being crazy.
No, I’m not willing to achieve either of those goals unconditionally.

No one is asking you to support the Dems "unconditionally." We're asking you to do it under the conditions of 2018/2020.

I did read what you wrote, I even helpfully bolded all the places where I guess you didn't use "there's only one way". I suppose in one manner you are correct, the Democrats don't support Trump's form of autocracy, they have their own.

But let's take a look at my "hypothetical argument".

From the Obama Administration:

Reduced the abuses in the war on terror? History of Obama's war on terror, Somalia, Obama's legal legacy gift to Trump, expanding power. Oh good. I guess we are ok there.

Assassinated an American citizen. Justified I guess. Phew. But he was a bad guy and the only one...oh. Well at least the Obama drone strikes only killed bad guys well, except for the 64-116 they admitted to, or maybe that number is 474? In 2013. Ok, fine. But they are all adults who shouldn't have been hanging around bad guys. But some of those were under Bush!. I guess it's ok, at least we aren't separating those children from their parents. Right?

Phew, ok. So maybe the Obama administration did some bad things overseas, but they allowed for the free and open expression of the press so as to ensure we had the truth. Hmm, ok well... And they didn't seize phone records of journalists. They probably just wanted to talk to them and couldn't remember their phone number. Obama did talk a good talk, but did he really walk the walk? And of course he was transparent compared to the past presidents. So very open and transparent.

Ok ok, they are minor examples that are fully Constitutional and I shouldn't be questioning Obama, plus the Democrats stood up the the Obama Administration proving the Democrats are willing to hold their own accountable.

Official Democrats response.

Phew. So very hypothetical. I guess you're right. No really. I think you are partially right. It's not like Trump has removed a single one of those policies has he? Nope. He's doubled, tripled, and more. That doesn't mean I have to be a slave to the left and refuse to question them, refuse to hold them accountable.

Democrats stand for the rule of law and a return to accountability

To quote someone here, give me a break. Yeah, they won't violate the Constitution in the same manner as Trump. And yes, it won't be as ridiculously stupid/unlawful/dangerous as Trump. But as I said earlier and was mocked for, the Democrats are not saints! Stop trying to insist I have to think they are. They don't stand for rule of law and they sure as hell don't want a "return" to accountability. There is no accountability in government beyond what the people are willing to enforce. And if we aren't willing to enforce it across the board and especially on those we support, which we are not doing right now, we will keep getting bad politicians.

Criticism of Democrats, criticism of Obama DOES NOT EQUAL SUPPORT OF TRUMP! It is entirely possible to say Trump sucks, Trump is horrible, Trump is worse then everyone else while still maintaining that Obama did a lot of bad things! It eminently reasonable to say the Republicans should be removed while also saying we need to hold the Democrats accountable for what they do. And to say we are going to hold them accountable when they take the reins of power.

I don't know how many times or in how many ways I can say Trump sucks. He is horrible. He should be removed and jailed. I wouldn't shed a tear if he was assassinated, though I wouldn't want to make him a martyr either. See? There I did it again, holding two conflicting viewpoints. OMG!

My argument is that the Democrats and the Republicans are already corrupt. Yes, the Republicans are ascendant right now and demonstrably worse, but giving the Democrats a free hand and electing them uncritically will not result in a utopia of freedom, rule of law and accountability.

Again, I'll ask. If the Democrats are elected because they are not Trump and they are not the GOP, if I'm not supposed to look beyond that one issue, how the hell do I get rid of them when they start passing legislation I (and others) don't like and when they bring in their flavor of autocracy? Where is the line?

I'm not saying don't vote for Democrats, I'm saying look at the individual running and examine the candidates with a critical eye. And I'm saying to hold them accountable for more than being "Not Trump". The horror!

I am putting my money and my time and my effort into the 2018 election, supporting a candidate who I think will represent me and ensure Trump is restrained. Oh the candidate I support is a Democrat. Shocking I know since I am such a clear and obvious Trump supporter. And should that person not win the primary, I will support the person who does while still questioning them.

[Edit: removed cursing] You all can think what you want, vote how you want. It's your choice and it is, despite what people think, still a free country. All I'm asking is that you stop demanding my uncritical allegiance to the Democrats. And it would be nice if more people gave thought to their vote instead of marking the box for (D) or (R). But I won't demand it.

[Rip]

The entire direction of calling anyone who doesn't think Trump is the epitome of everything evil in the world names etc. is all I am talking about. He does plenty wrong, but pointing out that he isn't as bad as the narrative puts it makes you a Trump fan. The interesting thing is how many people that drives to Trump that don't really care for him that much. It has come down to either you loathe him or you are lumped in with him.

Don't be surprised when that doesn't work out so well. In fact it just gives the people that will follow him a leg up because when people see the same rhetoric about the next person they will eventually figure out that it is a tactic that will be used against whoever doesn't adopt the democratic party line. Already his approval is up some and I am sure it will help Pence/Cruz or whoever follows immensely as they can fall back on not being like or as combative as Trump.

In reality the world isn't much different from an actual policy standpoint than it was ten years ago.

[Alefroth]

He does plenty wrong,

But you're oh so much quicker to point out the wrong things Obama or Clinton do. The only time you admit Trump does bad things is when you're forced to, to maintain some veneer of independence or even-handedness.

That's what people find distasteful about you.

[Fitzy]

The entire direction of calling anyone who doesn't think Trump is the epitome of everything evil in the world names etc. is all I am talking about. He does plenty wrong, but pointing out that he isn't as bad as the narrative puts it makes you a Trump fan. The interesting thing is how many people that drives to Trump that don't really care for him that much. It has come down to either you loathe him or you are lumped in with him.

But I do loathe Trump. And I do think he is evil. And I pretty much think he is as bad as at least the mainstream makes him out to be.

I'm even willing to say that the GOP going along with him makes them bad!

I don't think the Democrats are angels or saints swooping in to save us. I think they are corrupt. I am willing to point out when I think they are wrong. And I am willing to think about or possibly support a third party if I think it will be in the best interest of the country. Though I will weigh that against the potential for continued GOP control.

And that makes me a Trump supporter!

[GreenGoo]

That's not all I find distasteful about him.

Plus, Drumpf is objectively a terrible person. Hiding behind the idea that that is simply a difference of opinion is complete bullshit.

There are individuals throughout history that are objectively bad, and those who argue that they aren't bad are they themselves bad people. Drumpf is one of those individuals who is objectively bad. Defending him makes you bad.

This is not about politics or differences of policy. It has nothing to do with partisanship. While everyone is measured along a gradient with good and bad acts, some people do so many bad things on such a large scale that they are easily identified as objectively bad. No grey areas. Just...bad. Drumpf is one of those.

I don't call Rip an enemy of America because he is conservative or republican or a non-democrat or anything like that. He's an enemy of America because he's throwing smoke in defense of an objectively bad person at the helm of his country, a person that is almost certainly making his country a worse place to live, in ways that even Rip should find reprehensible. Not a worse place to live for democrats. A worse place to live for human beings.

[Rip]

He does plenty wrong,

But you're oh so much quicker to point out the wrong things Obama or Clinton do. The only time you admit Trump does bad things is when you're forced to, to maintain some veneer of independence or even-handedness.

That's what people find distasteful about you.

Baloney. I call many things Trump does bad right off the bat. The first one that comes to mind is tweeting stupid shit. Saluting the generals of adversaries. Giving Miranda right to terrorists. Endorsing Roy Moore. Failing to push the issue of confronting Russia with more biting action.

I could go on but what is the point when you and others will continue to feel that I like him. I don't. I just dislike him much less than any alternative I have. Failing to go bananas anti-Trump simply gets me labeled as a big fan of his and I am not.

[Combustible Lemur]

To fitzy: I can't speak to your general sense of democrats but my perception from frequenting progressive news and friends Is that no one is calling them Saints. But individuals who beleive in law and justice etc. have no choice but to run as democrats. Progressives have been the big tent coalition party. So by nature, their values in some senses are all over the Place. Trump offends them all. He is such a boogie man that it overshadows all the nuance and infighting. Trump and the alt right, by tightening and forging the white Christian teaparty coalition into a rabid high turnout Bloc bolstered by gerrymandering, voter suppression, actual fake news campaigns and ultimately traditional demographic behaviors, require a concretely unified coalition . It gets carried away; it leads to ludacris infighting and progressive and wokeness one upsmanship. It's also the only way democrats take the house and come close in the senate.

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[Combustible Lemur]

Also, to the list of questionable and wrong things the dems do. Well yeah duh. But republican policies are even more invested. As you can see across the last year. Obama killed a bunch of civilians Bush started an unnecessary war. Trump has threatened war and hires avid Warhawks to high places.
Obama increased surveillance, Republicans (generally) laud the patriot act etc. Though I'll grant that the sudden freedom caucas shift and turn on the entire Intelligence apparatus is new and different. The aca sucked, the Republicans don't want guaranteed Healthcare. Etc.
In a working govt. I totally agree with you and maybe the democrats would have gotten to this point. I don't think so because their coalition is to diverse. They have pockets but those pockets generally stay localized.

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[Blackhawk]

Democrats aren't the 'only way to think.' The problem is that actual solutions are a long-term undertaking. Right now, Democrats are the only viable short-term defense against Trumpism.

[Daehawk]

Problem is there are only 2 main parties...no one else really stands a chance of getting in and changing things for the better.

[Daehawk]

It came to me while I was posting in another Trump thread. I think the current GOP suffers from 'herd' mentality. Gotta go with the herd gotta stay with the herd gotta do what the herd does oh the herd is turning right I gotta turn too..HERD!

[Fitzy]

Also, to the list of questionable and wrong things the dems do. Well yeah duh. But republican policies are even more invested. As you can see across the last year. Obama killed a bunch of civilians Bush started an unnecessary war. Trump has threatened war and hires avid Warhawks to high places.
Obama increased surveillance, Republicans (generally) laud the patriot act etc. Though I'll grant that the sudden freedom caucas shift and turn on the entire Intelligence apparatus is new and different. The aca sucked, the Republicans don't want guaranteed Healthcare. Etc.
In a working govt. I totally agree with you and maybe the democrats would have gotten to this point. I don't think so because their coalition is to diverse. They have pockets but those pockets generally stay localized.

I really am not trying to argue that Democrats are/were worse. I listed Obama’s flaws in response to the idea that the Democrats are the party of respecting the law and the constitution. Nothing more. The current Republican Party is demonstrably worse than the Democrats and I would argue that until I was blue in the face. But the Democrats are not a good party. Many of the members are good people and I believe the same is true with the Republicans. But both parties are corrupt, with the Republicans running way out ahead on the corruption.

We need to cooperate with each other, work with each other, compromise, not hold to there being only one way to fix a problem, but accept that there are multiple possible solutions. And we need to stop labeling people (other than Trump) as evil for disagreeing with us.

I admit I am frustrated that I can’t explain my position in a way that gets my point across.

I want to see the country improve, to hold to a vaule’s stystem based on the Constitution and a respect for one another. Polite disagreement, arguing are all great! They shouldn’t be seen as bad, up to a point. At some point, the elected leaders need to work together to accomplish goals. That means giving some of their ideas up and getting some of their ideas. It means convincing the voters to put away the knives and accept that if the R doesn’t get elected the D will do fine and reverse. That is leadership. Not this current mess of blaming the other side, calling them evil (except Trump) and claiming it’s the end of the world if the other side wins.

I perfectly understand that the system we have means that it’s the Democrats or the Republicans and if the Republicans win again they will push an agenda that is bad for the country. That doesn’t mean I can’t argue for a better system or that I can’t push for people to choose better leaders. They don’t have to agree with me on who is a good leader, but in my opinion there are very few actual leaders in Congress or the Senate right now. They are users and power hungry at that.

And I don’t see how we get out of this trap we’ve put ourselves in if we refuse to hold the fire to the feet of the people we elect on both sides.

Democrats aren't the 'only way to think.' The problem is that actual solutions are a long-term undertaking. Right now, Democrats are the only viable short-term defense against Trumpism.

When does the short term end? If the Democrats win in 2018 do we move on? Or do we have to wait for 2020 and the removal of Trump? Once Trump is gone, is it then ok to to try for longer term solutions? Or will the next crisis be upon us requiring another short term fix?

I do not believe a short term solution can bring about long term success. It feels like we are trapped in a vicious circle where no one is willing to compromise and certainly no one is willing to make the hard, painful, sacrifices that will only get worse the longer we wait to fix problems.

I hope I am wrong. I hope the Democrats win this year and step up to the plate as more than a lesser (far lesser) version of the GOP and Trump. That they will reach out and work to move the country forward rather than dig in and only accept Democrat ideas.

I fear I am not wrong though.

[gbasden]

The entire direction of calling anyone who doesn't think Trump is the epitome of everything evil in the world names etc. is all I am talking about. He does plenty wrong, but pointing out that he isn't as bad as the narrative puts it makes you a Trump fan. The interesting thing is how many people that drives to Trump that don't really care for him that much. It has come down to either you loathe him or you are lumped in with him.

But I do loathe Trump. And I do think he is evil. And I pretty much think he is as bad as at least the mainstream makes him out to be.

I'm even willing to say that the GOP going along with him makes them bad!

I don't think the Democrats are angels or saints swooping in to save us. I think they are corrupt. I am willing to point out when I think they are wrong. And I am willing to think about or possibly support a third party if I think it will be in the best interest of the country. Though I will weigh that against the potential for continued GOP control.

And that makes me a Trump supporter!

I do actually agree with you in a lot of ways. The Democrats do a lot of things I dislike and certainly a number of them are corrupt. Unfortunately, I think that's the end state of the two party system we are stuck with. I would much rather have a multi party parliamentary system where there are a large number of choices. That said, we are stuck with the system we have. I will absolutely work to help good candidates in the primary and try to get the best people I can into office. I wouldn't support a Democrat, even in the general, if they were corrupt, immoral or otherwise seriously flawed. Past that, I'm voting straight D, because the difference between a standard R and a standard D is morally huge to me. I will still disagree about a lot of the things the Ds will choose to do. I don't like the surveillance state, or drone strikes or cozying up to big donors. But I *have no choice* because I can't pull the lever for anyone that is going to advance Trump's agenda.

Maybe that makes me a tool, but there's nothing else I can see to do.

[Combustible Lemur]

Don't know that there's a solution at all. Nativism/nationalism will always be a stro g bloc that demands strong opposition coalitions. The nature of progress is that small minorities scratch and climb and work together to fight the conservative status quo

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[Kraken]

Both parties serve the oligarchy -- and, in fact, many of the same oligarchs. The oligarchs own and inhabit both parties. The Republicans have stopped pretending to serve anybody else (except rhetorically, for the easily fooled). The Democrats understand that the oligarchy needs a placid and functioning underclass and endeavor to keep that lurching along. So there is a difference, but everybody's first allegiance is still to money and those who have it. The R oligarchs just want to loot the candy store before it burns down, while at least some of the D oligarchs know that they can keep milking the business indefinitely if people can buy candy. Let them eat Skittles!

That's why Citizens United was such a disaster. That's why the ever-accelerating concentration of wealth is such a disaster. That's why having a con man indebted to Russian oligarchs in the oval office is such a disaster. The trends are all going in the wrong direction. Government has always served the elite first and it always will, but the process has run away. Republicans have clearly decided not to fight it. Democrats aren't quite there yet. But that's what has to change -- the primacy of money in politics...the campaigns that last for years and cost hundreds of millions. IDK if we can fix that in a world where corporations are people and money is speech.

[Blackhawk]

When does the short term end? If the Democrats win in 2018 do we move on? Or do we have to wait for 2020 and the removal of Trump? Once Trump is gone, is it then ok to to try for longer term solutions? Or will the next crisis be upon us requiring another short term fix?

The moment Trump, through his absurd clout, doesn't effectively control the entirety of the federal government. Gaining one branch of Congress would do that.

I do not believe a short term solution can bring about long term success.

Of course it doesn't, not in this case. I didn't say ignore long term solutions. I didn't even say solution. I said defense. We're standing in a burning house arguing about how to rebuild it stronger. At the very least we need to look for a fire extinguisher while we argue.

[Blackhawk]

Don't know that there's a solution at all. Nativism/nationalism will always be a stro g bloc that demands strong opposition coalitions. The nature of progress is that small minorities scratch and climb and work together to fight the conservative status quo

It isn't a fleshed out idea or anything, but I found myself wondering today if we're just too large a nation for a democracy to really work. If the differences in far-flung regions with different needs and cultures are too diverse and extreme to really operate together in a way that is acceptable to all of them. Nowhere else does such a large, varied group operate under the same roof without a 'supreme leader' to silence the dissent of the minority.

[Combustible Lemur]

Don't know that there's a solution at all. Nativism/nationalism will always be a stro g bloc that demands strong opposition coalitions. The nature of progress is that small minorities scratch and climb and work together to fight the conservative status quo

It isn't a fleshed out idea or anything, but I found myself wondering today if we're just too large a nation for a democracy to really work. If the differences in far-flung regions with different needs and cultures are too diverse and extreme to really operate together in a way that is acceptable to all of them. Nowhere else does such a large, varied group operate under the same roof without a 'supreme leader' to silence the dissent of the minority.

Europe is doing okay, they have similar problems, Brazil, South Africa, South Africa and Africa in general. We've got problems and for what progressives see for the future, systemic and dangerous problems, but they're hardly unique.

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[Combustible Lemur]

To add to that, I think the problem is much less about diversity and more a growing pain of the information age. NONE of these issues are new. In the past they we just obscured and ignored. It's less racist now than 100yrs ago. It's just generally not acceptable any more. It not really less free, there's just way more surveillance and accountability. Corporations aren't literally getting away with murder generally, we just see all the time they try. And sometimes succeed. That's not to say we should push just as hard or harder.
It's the side of Rip and Conservatism I understand even while vehemently disagreeing with. Progressives are winning even while Republicans fight and win elections. The culture has shifted dramatically in a generation even while the systemic human problems persist. Gay people are not going back in the closet, the national momentum is for single payer, DACA, reforms, equality, justice. Its just an ugly fight that has lightning rods like Trump, and zealots like pence, Ryan, mconnell etc. keeping the fight scary and questionable. And people like Fitzy are right to be suspicious of overzealous progressives. Marx, Lenin, Castro, Chavez (Hugo not Cesar) all came out of progressive movements.

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[Fitzy]

Don't know that there's a solution at all. Nativism/nationalism will always be a stro g bloc that demands strong opposition coalitions. The nature of progress is that small minorities scratch and climb and work together to fight the conservative status quo

It isn't a fleshed out idea or anything, but I found myself wondering today if we're just too large a nation for a democracy to really work. If the differences in far-flung regions with different needs and cultures are too diverse and extreme to really operate together in a way that is acceptable to all of them. Nowhere else does such a large, varied group operate under the same roof without a 'supreme leader' to silence the dissent of the minority.

I actually think we have the solution, we've just been running from it since 1789.

Federalism. A bottom up, decentralized form of government, with strong minority protections in the Constitution. Which, I believe, was the intention of the founders, though they'd be shocked to see how far equality has spread.

I, as a voter, have more power in my city than my county, my power in my county than my state, more power in my state than my country. It's also easier for me to move from a city that I don't agree with than it is to move from the country.

The more the federal government takes on, the harder it is to govern and the more people are left out.There is no form of government that can make everyone happy though.

Federalism is less efficient and there are other problems of where to draw the line. The fucking racists gave federalism a bad name in the rush to hang onto legal discrimination in the name of "state rights". That would be hard to overcome.

Yet it is still the best way I can see to govern a country like the US.

The other option I see is what I've seen bounced around here, Parliamentary government in which the majority, whoever that might be, crushes the minority.

When does the short term end? If the Democrats win in 2018 do we move on? Or do we have to wait for 2020 and the removal of Trump? Once Trump is gone, is it then ok to to try for longer term solutions? Or will the next crisis be upon us requiring another short term fix?

The moment Trump, through his absurd clout, doesn't effectively control the entirety of the federal government. Gaining one branch of Congress would do that.

I do not believe a short term solution can bring about long term success.

Of course it doesn't, not in this case. I didn't say ignore long term solutions. I didn't even say solution. I said defense. We're standing in a burning house arguing about how to rebuild it stronger. At the very least we need to look for a fire extinguisher while we argue.

I think I can accept the fire extinguisher metaphor. Not entirely, as I still think sooner rather than later, we need to suck it up and make real changes, instead of always insisting now isn't the time. But I can see where Trump is an actual extraordinary situation.

So long as I can still argue while spraying the fire.

[Fitzy]

Don't know that there's a solution at all. Nativism/nationalism will always be a stro g bloc that demands strong opposition coalitions. The nature of progress is that small minorities scratch and climb and work together to fight the conservative status quo

It isn't a fleshed out idea or anything, but I found myself wondering today if we're just too large a nation for a democracy to really work. If the differences in far-flung regions with different needs and cultures are too diverse and extreme to really operate together in a way that is acceptable to all of them. Nowhere else does such a large, varied group operate under the same roof without a 'supreme leader' to silence the dissent of the minority.

I actually think we have the solution, we've just been running from it since 1789.

Federalism. A bottom up, decentralized form of government, with strong minority protections in the Constitution. Which, I believe, was the intention of the founders, though they'd be shocked to see how far equality has spread.

I, as a voter, have more power in my city than my county, my power in my county than my state, more power in my state than my country. It's also easier for me to move from a city that I don't agree with than it is to move from the country.

It even helps with Kraken's worry about money in the government as it would be much harder and much more expensive to buy meaningful influence across a large swath of the country. Of course it would also be much easier to buy a lot more influence at a much smaller location. So I don't know.

The more the federal government takes on, the harder it is to govern and the more people are left out.There is no form of government that can make everyone happy, but giving everyone the opportunity to feel like their voice is heard would go a long ways towards reducing tribalism and feelings of being powerless.

Federalism is less efficient and there are other problems of where to draw the line. The fucking racists gave federalism a bad name in the rush to hang onto legal discrimination in the name of "state rights". That would be hard to overcome.

Yet it is still the best way I can see to govern a country like the US.

The other option I see is what I've seen bounced around here, Parliamentary government in which the majority, whoever that might be, crushes the minority under an authoritarian democracy.

When does the short term end? If the Democrats win in 2018 do we move on? Or do we have to wait for 2020 and the removal of Trump? Once Trump is gone, is it then ok to to try for longer term solutions? Or will the next crisis be upon us requiring another short term fix?

The moment Trump, through his absurd clout, doesn't effectively control the entirety of the federal government. Gaining one branch of Congress would do that.

I do not believe a short term solution can bring about long term success.

Of course it doesn't, not in this case. I didn't say ignore long term solutions. I didn't even say solution. I said defense. We're standing in a burning house arguing about how to rebuild it stronger. At the very least we need to look for a fire extinguisher while we argue.

I think I can accept the fire extinguisher metaphor. Not entirely, as I still think sooner rather than later, we need to suck it up and make real changes, instead of always insisting now isn't the time. But I can see where Trump is an actual extraordinary situation and he is trying to burn down the house.

So long as I can still argue while spraying the fire.

[Zarathud]

Dictator are made by the changing of laws to give them more power and remove limits to how long they can rule. Trump hasn't hasn't extended the power of the office on iota, although many before him did and there is ZERO chance they he could serve beyond the eight years many other have.

Until you get away with it, it doesn't count and we shouldn't overreact?

[insert ironic drudge siren here]

Over the top reactions to stuff is just as damaging as the people who pay no attention.

Not even close.

The Democrats have not been subjecting themselves to autocratic purges for decades. They didn't get in kine behind a corrupt leader who publicly admires dictators. Hillary wasn't even able to defeat Bernie without difficulty. The Democratic Party's main weakness is their tendency to infight over ideas and policy. They are far from imposing a Democratic Trump, despite the conservative fear mongering.

Even if the Democrats come to power, Trump is going to leave a disaster behind from dismantling government agencies and our political heritage. Trump is going to maximize damage on the way out and will stop tweeting hate only after he dies.

[GreenGoo]

Don't forget the Dems are bad too. I think that's what's important right now. People seem to lose sight of that. Drumpf might be starting a trade war with Canada, but the Dems are bad too.

Don't forget.

[Fitzy]

*snip*

Never mind. I give up. You win.

[Zarathud]

We need to cooperate with each other, work with each other, compromise, not hold to there being only one way to fix a problem, but accept that there are multiple possible solutions. And we need to stop labeling people (other than Trump) as evil for disagreeing with us.

Obama tried -- and the Tea Party, Trump, Drudge, McConnell, and Ryan not only refused to cooperate, they challenged Obama with extreme resistance. Rip led the charge here. NOTHING the Democrats have done compares with the Republicans.

Trump has only made it worse, taking it to toxic levels. He will continue to tweet cancer into the public discourse while he lives.

The Democrats are not organized. Obama's attempt to pass a Romney-inspired ACA showed their divisions, and there will continue to be a debate over the ling term. Schumer and Durbin have already tried bringing several compromises to Trump.

No way they become as toxic as the GOP, and the party will turn on itself first.