Octopus Overlords

Holman wrote: ↑Tue May 15, 2018 8:38 pm

Rip wrote: ↑Tue May 15, 2018 8:32 pm

LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue May 15, 2018 7:13 pm

Rip wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 10:43 am They chose to riot. Dying is a result of their choices not his.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 51971.html

But at least we're not talking about a Trump properties, Indonesian grift or is that graft, ZTE triangle, amiright?

People who would take an 8 month old to a violent protest don't deserve kids.

Please, tell us more about how unarmed people asserting a political claim aren't even human.

Israeli drones dropped tear gas onto Palestinian demonstrators who used kites to drop molotov cocktails.

Demonstrators, some armed with slingshots, threw stones at the Israeli security forces, who fired tear gas back.

Defiant wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 7:22 am In addition, there have been reports at these protests of people with guns, petrol bombs and balloon bombs. But, AFAIK, the overwhelming majority of people didn't have weapons. I would hope that Israel would focus on non-lethal or less lethal options (warning shots, tear gas, rubber bullets, etc) first, and resort to killing as a last option (or directed at those with weapons), but I also know they have a priority of not allowing the border to be breached. I'm not a military expert, and I don't know enough to know how well they did in minimizing the deaths while achieving that aim, but based on past experience, where we've seen plenty of examples where, with time, the Israeli side gets corroborated, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until we have all the facts.

Defiant wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 7:22 am I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until we have all the facts.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am Personally, as a rule I just avoid crowds that look like they'll get unruly and would never put my kids in one. Retreat is the best solution. But then I'm not a Palestinian and I don't live in the Gaza Strip. I can say with some certainty that I have no idea what it's like.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am If a >0 n of armed individuals in a crowd is justification for killing anyone in that crowd, well let the barrell bombs fly.

Policing is hard. ROE suck. That's life for non-murderous governments.




Personally, as a rule I just avoid crowds that look like they'll get unruly and would never put my kids in one. Retreat is the best solution. But then I'm not a Palestinian and I don't live in the Gaza Strip. I can say with some certainty that I have no idea what it's like.

Defiant wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 9:46 am What I could find with google:

Chaz wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 am Just to briefly derail back to the stone tablet on the embassy: is it really standard practice to permanently engrave the name of whatever sitting President established the embassy in that location? If so, that seems weird. If not, will they need to replace the stone tablet when the next President gets inaugurated, while they're changing all the portraits? Is it like the Stanley Cup, where they just keep adding new names? Or is the idea that they'll never have to change the name because...

Defiant wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 9:46 am What I could find with google. I assume, since they reference the dedication ceremony event, it wouldn't be changed with each new President.

Chaz wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 am Just to briefly derail back to the stone tablet on the embassy: is it really standard practice to permanently engrave the name of whatever sitting President established the embassy in that location? If so, that seems weird. If not, will they need to replace the stone tablet when the next President gets inaugurated, while they're changing all the portraits? Is it like the Stanley Cup, where they just keep adding new names? Or is the idea that they'll never have to change the name because...

The Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terror groups acknowledged Tuesday that 13 operatives from the organizations were among the 60 reported killed by IDF fire at the Gaza fence protests a day prior. Israel said at least 24 of the dead were members of terror groups.

Rip wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 10:32 am pictures of horrible things, presumably being done by horrible Hamas...

El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 9:22 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am If a >0 n of armed individuals in a crowd is justification for killing anyone in that crowd, well let the barrell bombs fly.

Policing is hard. ROE suck. That's life for non-murderous governments.




Personally, as a rule I just avoid crowds that look like they'll get unruly and would never put my kids in one. Retreat is the best solution. But then I'm not a Palestinian and I don't live in the Gaza Strip. I can say with some certainty that I have no idea what it's like.

I think it's not "some armed individuals gives authorization to shoot anyone" and more "some armed individuals means that they have to take the threat of violence seriously, because they don't know who in any crowd is armed". And as Paingod noted they are using non-lethal methods - tear gas, rubber bullets, etc. But of course, there's no perfect non-lethal method - the baby that died (that Rip was pretty callous about) was killed by tear gas. And it certainly doesn't help that the group organizing all of this (Hamas) affirmatively wants people to die, because that's what it needs out of all this.

Which is not to say that the IDF is handling this perfectly. Just from knowing how police / military operations often go in the United States, I assume that in all of this some IDF soldiers and commanders are making poor or callous choices in the use of force. But turning back large angry crowds of partially armed people (some of whom are willing or eager to die, and some of whom will try to kill you) without hurting anyone is not an easy thing to do. Point is just that it's way more complicated than "villanous government mowing down peaceful protesters".

They are not unarmed. If they just wanted to stand out there and protest no one would care. That is nowhere near all they are doing.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 9:22 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am If a >0 n of armed individuals in a crowd is justification for killing anyone in that crowd, well let the barrell bombs fly.

Policing is hard. ROE suck. That's life for non-murderous governments.




Personally, as a rule I just avoid crowds that look like they'll get unruly and would never put my kids in one. Retreat is the best solution. But then I'm not a Palestinian and I don't live in the Gaza Strip. I can say with some certainty that I have no idea what it's like.

I think it's not "some armed individuals gives authorization to shoot anyone" and more "some armed individuals means that they have to take the threat of violence seriously, because they don't know who in any crowd is armed". And as Paingod noted they are using non-lethal methods - tear gas, rubber bullets, etc. But of course, there's no perfect non-lethal method - the baby that died (that Rip was pretty callous about) was killed by tear gas. And it certainly doesn't help that the group organizing all of this (Hamas) affirmatively wants people to die, because that's what it needs out of all this.

Which is not to say that the IDF is handling this perfectly. Just from knowing how police / military operations often go in the United States, I assume that in all of this some IDF soldiers and commanders are making poor or callous choices in the use of force. But turning back large angry crowds of partially armed people (some of whom are willing or eager to die, and some of whom will try to kill you) without hurting anyone is not an easy thing to do. Point is just that it's way more complicated than "villanous government mowing down peaceful protesters".

Rip wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 10:32 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 2:09 pm Yeah, I've used a sling. They're lethal up to a certain range. The point was more about the 'more than 1/3 of those killed were actually guilty, so it's OK' idea.

"If our leaders seek to conceal the truth or we as people become accepting of alternative realities that are no longer grounded in facts then we as American citizens are on a pathway to relinquishing our freedom."

What do human rights groups say?

They have accused the Israeli military of using excessive force.

They have said Israeli soldiers deployed near the Gaza protests were required to operate according to the international legal framework applicable to police and other law enforcement officials, which is part of international human rights law. It holds that the "intentional lethal use of firearms may only be made when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life".

"An attempt to approach or crossing or damaging the fence do not amount to a threat to life or serious injury and are not sufficient grounds for the use of live ammunition," Rupert Colville, a spokesman for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, told reporters on Tuesday.

"This is also the case with regards to stones and Molotov cocktails being thrown from a distance at well-protected security forces located behind defensive positions."

Philip Luther, Amnesty International's Middle East director, said: "This is a violation of international standards, with Israeli forces in some instances committing what appear to be wilful killings constituting war crimes."

Last month, the group documented witness testimony, video and photographic evidence that it said showed Israeli troops were killing and maiming demonstrators who posed no imminent threat to them.

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said the open-fire orders were "manifestly unlawful" and called on Israeli soldiers in the field to refuse to comply with them.

Last month, six other human rights groups asked the Israeli Supreme Court to revoke the military's rules of engagement that they said permitted live fire at protesters classified as "key agitators" even when they did not pose an immediate threat to life. The groups said soldiers should instead follow the law enforcement framework. The court's decision is pending.

Enough wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 2:14 pm Tillerson has some advice for Americans this graduation season:

"If our leaders seek to conceal the truth or we as people become accepting of alternative realities that are no longer grounded in facts then we as American citizens are on a pathway to relinquishing our freedom."

https://twitter.com/PeterAlexander/stat ... 7722910722

President Trump during California #SanctuaryCities Roundtable: "These aren't people. These are animals."

Holman wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 5:09 pm

President Trump during California #SanctuaryCities Roundtable: "These aren't people. These are animals."

Donald Trump is not a person. He's an animal.

Scratch that. He's simply and clearly a repulsive bigot.

Donald Trump ran for president as an economic populist. This fact has been largely forgotten, buried by the flurry of bizarre and outrageous actions, and activists on both sides have had little reason to bring it up. Conservatives have pushed the administration to forget its unorthodox gestures and follow Paul Ryan’s lead. Progressives have emphasized the racist and sexist nature of Trump’s appeal. But Trump’s ability to distance himself from his party’s economic brand formed a decisive element of his appeal. Voters actually saw Trump as more moderate than any Republican presidential candidate since 1972. And he has violated every one of his promises...

...Trump promised to do a lot of un-Republican things to give resources and influence to blue-collar Americans, which would have threatened his party’s power brokers. Many of these promises were feasible if Trump actually wanted to follow through on them. Instead, the only promises he has kept are the ones that put money in the pockets of Trump and his cronies.

Holman wrote: ↑Wed May 16, 2018 5:09 pm

President Trump during California #SanctuaryCities Roundtable: "These aren't people. These are animals."

Donald Trump is not a person. He's an animal.

Scratch that. He's simply and clearly a repulsive bigot.

May the next 70 years be ones of strength, of hope, and of peace.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 2:28 pm Also, turns out that the 8-month baby that died did not actually die from Israeli tear gas, but from a preexisting heart condition.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 2:49 pm It seems like splitting hairs unless the allegation is that she was already dead and brought to the protests as a fake victim.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 2:53 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 2:49 pm It seems like splitting hairs unless the allegation is that she was already dead and brought to the protests as a fake victim.

Depending on who's asking, contributory factors vs. cause matters. In the geopolitical nature of this discussion, each side is going to pick a different version. For those without a dog in the fight, it's more likely to matter.