Octopus Overlords

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:30 pm

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:39 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:52 pm Trump vetoed the NDAA. He is just a petulant child jumping up and down screaming.

DEFUND THE TROOPS!!

If Dems were smart, they’d be screaming this from the rooftops. But they’re not, so they won’t.

They'll issue Twitter statements and be interviewed on CNN and MSNBC, but otherwise the Dems don't really have "rooftops" like 24/7 Fox News or Facebook's GOP-friendly algorithms.

I checked out Fox News to see if they would try to spin this to favor Agolf, but it was surprisingly factual. Of course they immediately pivoted to Hunter Biden as if it were the lead story.

Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:15 pm I checked out Fox News to see if they would try to spin this to favor Agolf, but it was surprisingly factual. Of course they immediately pivoted to Hunter Biden as if it were the lead story.

Wait til they switch over to Tucker/Hannity/Ingraham at 8pm. That's when the TRUTH* happens!

(*Fox TRUTH no longer sufficiently approved by Newsmax and OANN)

More Patriots pardoned by The Leader!

President Trump doled out clemency to a new group of loyalists on Wednesday, wiping away convictions and sentences as he aggressively employed his power to override courts, juries and prosecutors to apply his own standard of justice for his allies.

One recipient of a pardon was a family member, Charles Kushner, the father of his son-in-law, Jared Kushner. Two others who were pardoned declined to cooperate with prosecutors in connection with the special counsel’s Russia investigation: Paul Manafort, his 2016 campaign chairman, and Roger J. Stone Jr., his longtime informal adviser and friend.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/23/us/p ... stone.html

Well he has firmly cemented number 1 for most corrupt President of all time. It was pretty certain before but it'll be hard to top this and he still has runway to do worse.

I mean, everyone pretty much expected this, right?

The only surprise is that it came this early in the game. I figured Manafort and Stone would be Jan 19 pardons.

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:52 pm Well he has firmly cemented number 1 for most corrupt President of all time. It was pretty certain before but it'll be hard to top this and he still has runway to do worse.

And yet there will doubtless be millions who will go to their graves swearing he was an innocent victim. With Agolf being the cause of thousands of those graves.

Interested that Barr left his post minutes before these pardons were announced.

“There’s always a tweet”, David Perdue 2015 edition.

Tell @POTUS to stop playing politics with #NDAA & support our troops. RT if you agree.

$iljanus wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:35 pm More Patriots pardoned by The Leader!

President Trump doled out clemency to a new group of loyalists on Wednesday, wiping away convictions and sentences as he aggressively employed his power to override courts, juries and prosecutors to apply his own standard of justice for his allies.

One recipient of a pardon was a family member, Charles Kushner, the father of his son-in-law, Jared Kushner. Two others who were pardoned declined to cooperate with prosecutors in connection with the special counsel’s Russia investigation: Paul Manafort, his 2016 campaign chairman, and Roger J. Stone Jr., his longtime informal adviser and friend.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/23/us/p ... stone.html

NYT:

Of the 65 pardons and commutations that Mr. Trump had granted before Wednesday, 60 have gone to petitioners who had a personal tie to Mr. Trump or who helped his political aims, according to a tabulation by the Harvard Law School professor Jack Goldsmith. Although similar figures do not exist for previous presidents, legal experts say that those presidents granted a far lower percentage to those who could help them personally and politically.

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:14 pm Interested that Barr left his post minutes before these pardons were announced.

I figured he was trying to get the hell out of dodge before Trump issues a pre-emptive pardon to Ghislaine Maxwell.

Why this isn't totally illegal is beyond me. Just awful he pardons the Blackwater scum. Federal convictions should maybe be above pardons.

Federal convictions are literally the only thing he can pardon, if I understand it correctly. That's why even a self-pardon can't protect him from state charges.

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:16 pm NYT:

Of the 65 pardons and commutations that Mr. Trump had granted before Wednesday, 60 have gone to petitioners who had a personal tie to Mr. Trump or who helped his political aims, according to a tabulation by the Harvard Law School professor Jack Goldsmith. Although similar figures do not exist for previous presidents, legal experts say that those presidents granted a far lower percentage to those who could help them personally and politically.

This paragraph rubs me the wrong way. The 2nd sentence isn't supported enough and feels unnecessary. I can't help but feel there was a better way to put it in context than other President's might have done similar things at smaller scale.

When you pardon child killers and guys who hire prostitutes for their brother in order to blackmail them, you might be a Trump.

Charles Kushner (Jared's dad) was convicted of illegal campaign contributions, tax evasion, and witness tampering. He served his sentence and left prison in 2006.

How does a pardon help him? Can he do legally do money laundering Trump transactions now?

I’m guessing Jared “I got one expression and it looks like disgust” Kushner is behind this. He hates Christie for doing his job and putting his vile, scumbag of a father away back then. This is like rubbing his face in it now.

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:10 pm Charles Kushner (Jared's dad) was convicted of illegal campaign contributions, tax evasion, and witness tampering. He served his sentence and left prison in 2006.

How does a pardon help him? Can he do legally do money laundering Trump transactions now?

Maybe Trump is just trying to butter Jared up so he's more agreeable to a wife swap?

To anybody over the age of 15, that would just be an eye-rollingly bad attempt to get under their skin. But for Trump? It's custom made to push him over the deep end.

Streets without people
All alone
Roads full of houses
All are home
Everyone taking
A massive dump
Everyone's turning on Trump

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:10 pm Charles Kushner (Jared's dad) was convicted of illegal campaign contributions, tax evasion, and witness tampering. He served his sentence and left prison in 2006.

How does a pardon help him? Can he do legally do money laundering Trump transactions now?

I just read that pardons get back any fines and money the govt seized. Just read that Manafort is going to get a check for millions from the taxpayer.

Grifman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:52 am

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:10 pm Charles Kushner (Jared's dad) was convicted of illegal campaign contributions, tax evasion, and witness tampering. He served his sentence and left prison in 2006.

How does a pardon help him? Can he do legally do money laundering Trump transactions now?

I just read that pardons get back any fines and money the govt seized. Just read that Manafort is going to get a check for millions from the taxpayer.

The criminal portion. Andrew Weissman said they accounted for a pardon and split the penalties into a criminal and separate civil portion that will stand. So he will get a big check back but he'll still be out millions.

Andrew Weissmann, a top Mueller deputy who oversaw Manafort’s prosecution by the special counsel, noted that Manafort has served roughly two years of his sentence, and that assets seized in civil forfeiture proceedings would fall outside the pardon.

“So, there still are consequences to Paul Manafort, they are just not commensurate with the extensive criminality that he was convicted of and plead guilty to,” Weissmann said on CNN.

Is there a legal difference between a pardon for innocence and a pardon...not for innocence?

I get that any pardon absolves the legal punishment. But I’ve seen court opinions that make a distinction between a pardon, and a pardon for innocence.

In the latter, the President/Governor is explicitly finding the individual innocent of the charge. And those folks are absolutely entitled to restitution.

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:25 am Is there a legal difference between a pardon for innocence and a pardon...not for innocence?

I get that any pardon absolves the legal punishment. But I’ve seen court opinions that make a distinction between a pardon, and a pardon for innocence.

In the latter, the President/Governor is explicitly finding the individual innocent of the charge. And those folks are absolutely entitled to restitution.

That doesn't matter from what I read at the Federal level. It also sounds like there is actually an implication of guilt. In effect, you have to accept the grant and it implies guilt. The pardon however wipes away the criminal penalty and that gets Manafort in this case the criminal monetary penalty back.

Will we get through Christmas Eve without some new batch of horribleness coming from the WH? Will he start WW3 with a Tweet? Will he pardon Jesus?

Find out in today’s episode of “Oh My God, Will This Orange Asshole Just Please Leave Already?”

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:54 am Will we get through Christmas Eve without some new batch of horribleness coming from the WH? Will he start WW3 with a Tweet? Will he pardon Jesus?

Find out in today’s episode of “Oh My God, Will This Orange Asshole Just Please Leave Already?”

For me the big question is whether Trump will try anything along the lines of attempting an actual coup, declaring that he's extending his term in office, etc. I don't think anything like that would *succeed*, but I think it's reasonably likely that he'll try something like that.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:56 am

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:54 am Will we get through Christmas Eve without some new batch of horribleness coming from the WH? Will he start WW3 with a Tweet? Will he pardon Jesus?

Find out in today’s episode of “Oh My God, Will This Orange Asshole Just Please Leave Already?”

For me the big question is whether Trump will try anything along the lines of attempting an actual coup, declaring that he's extending his term in office, etc. I don't think anything like that would *succeed*, but I think it's reasonably likely that he'll try something like that.

I think its pretty certain. Trump is saber rattling with Iran so maybe he'll manufacture some crisis there via his stooges in the DoD. Or it'll just be some wacky pronouncement but the idea that he is going to leave and go to the inauguration like some hope in the GOP...seems pretty unlikely.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:05 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:56 am

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:54 am Will we get through Christmas Eve without some new batch of horribleness coming from the WH? Will he start WW3 with a Tweet? Will he pardon Jesus?

Find out in today’s episode of “Oh My God, Will This Orange Asshole Just Please Leave Already?”

For me the big question is whether Trump will try anything along the lines of attempting an actual coup, declaring that he's extending his term in office, etc. I don't think anything like that would *succeed*, but I think it's reasonably likely that he'll try something like that.

I think its pretty certain. Trump is saber rattling with Iran so maybe he'll manufacture some crisis there via his stooges in the DoD. Or it'll just be some wacky pronouncement but the idea that he is going to leave and go to the inauguration like some hope in the GOP...seems pretty unlikely.

Well, any coup or coup-like attempt is very very likely to fail, and attempting it and failing will probably leave him marginally worse off than if he had never tried. So there is a decent self-interested rationale for him to not try.

BUT Trump isn't super logical or smart, and he's pretty desperate. So I think the odds are reasonably likely but I think there's also a decent chance that he just rages and issues meaningless proclamations but doesn't do anything concrete to extend his time in office.

The most profitable thing for him would be to declare his candidacy for 2024 and insist that he will get the WH back after having it stolen this time. That's a guaranteed four-year fundraising grift, and he risks nothing.

My hope is that the garbage humans pardon lottery has enough people groveling at his feet to keep his ego preoccupied at least for a couple days.

There is chatter that he allegedly is thinking of firing Cipollone and/or Meadows. If that happens then all bets are off.

Holman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:12 pm The most profitable thing for him would be to declare his candidacy for 2024 and insist that he will get the WH back after having it stolen this time. That's a guaranteed four-year fundraising grift, and he risks nothing.

Sure but he next to no capacity for strategy or long-term thinking. He is excessively impulsive and essentially codependently relies on outsiders to keep him on any path. Hopefully the rumors that Powell is banned by staff is true but you have to be sure he has a bunch of loonies in his ear all day right now nevertheless.

In a recent interview Michael Cohen suggested/predicted Trump is setting up for a counter-programing effort in which he will charge $4.99 for access to "all Turmp, all the time". Cohen went on to say, if even half the people that voted for him subscribe that's something like $150 million or more per month.

The smart thing to do is to leave as many landmines for the Biden administration as possible (already in place), help Republicans win at least one of the GA run-offs so that McConnell can keep the Biden administration from doing anything, maintain a firm grip on the GOP base so that any criminal charges against him are politically explosive, and then aim to run again in 2024.

OR he can just move to a Dacha on the Black Sea or something.

But of course, Trump is not particularly smart, so....

I was wondering what happens if he tries to start a war with Iran, then claims you can't change Presidents during wartime. But technically Congress must declare war...

Issy in the house?

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:56 am

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:54 am Will we get through Christmas Eve without some new batch of horribleness coming from the WH? Will he start WW3 with a Tweet? Will he pardon Jesus?

Find out in today’s episode of “Oh My God, Will This Orange Asshole Just Please Leave Already?”

For me the big question is whether Trump will try anything along the lines of attempting an actual coup, declaring that he's extending his term in office, etc. I don't think anything like that would *succeed*, but I think it's reasonably likely that he'll try something like that.

This isn't happening, not bc it's beneath trump or he loves America or for any even remotely high minded reasons. It's not happening bc trump is fundamentally a coward. Any attempted coups, coup-lite, or coup-like activities involve risk persobally to trump. There's no coming back from attempting coups; you get dead on the end of a rope for that. trump always has an out, whether it's through the courts, bribes, or intimidation. There's a very good chance he doesn't have any repurcussions or recriminations for the last 4 years, or he ties any charges up in court until after he dies, and he knows that right now he's got about 70 million easy marks just salivating to give him their $.

He'll talk his usual trash and he'll tweet his usual crap but he is not risking his life for anything or anyone.

GungHo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 10:04 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:56 am

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:54 am Will we get through Christmas Eve without some new batch of horribleness coming from the WH? Will he start WW3 with a Tweet? Will he pardon Jesus?

Find out in today’s episode of “Oh My God, Will This Orange Asshole Just Please Leave Already?”

For me the big question is whether Trump will try anything along the lines of attempting an actual coup, declaring that he's extending his term in office, etc. I don't think anything like that would *succeed*, but I think it's reasonably likely that he'll try something like that.

This isn't happening, not bc it's beneath trump or he loves America or for any even remotely high minded reasons. It's not happening bc trump is fundamentally a coward. Any attempted coups, coup-lite, or coup-like activities involve risk persobally to trump. There's no coming back from attempting coups; you get dead on the end of a rope for that.

The United States in its current form probably won't even prosecute a (former) President much less execute one. In any event, he has already conducted autocoup-lite activity -- applying pressure to multiple elected officials to overturn the election easily could be defined this way -- and is threatening more. The meetings this week to go over a strategy to overturn the election via EC challenge for January 6th are essentially autocoup behavior. There is no reasonable basis to challenge the EC vote. In fact, the Republican House members cited the *many* lawsuits as justification which is just shameless, corrupt behavior.

The EC objections, which by all accounts will almost certainly happen, will constitute a legal process but they will be essentially illegitimate in the sense that the challenges are known to be a sham. In the end, it won't go anywhere but if we are honest with ourselves it is autocoup behavior. And nothing will happen to Trump or his nearly lawless enablers.

So...

Covid19 raging out of control
No relief checks for Americans
No raises for the military
Unemployment benefits expire
People starving on Christmas
Terrorist attack in Nashville

And...

Agolf rage tweets about Communism. Seems legit.

Jaymann wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:36 pm I was wondering what happens if he tries to start a war with Iran, then claims you can't change Presidents during wartime. But technically Congress must declare war...

Issy in the house?

iirc we have changed Presidents multiple times during wars.

I mean, it's not like we've been at war for the past nineteen years or anything...