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Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

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Kraken
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Kraken » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:16 am

Here we go again: Federal judge in TX rules Obamacare unconstitutional. All of it.

Another self-inflicted wound for Republicans. If upheld, this will make Medicare-for-all the issue that shoos in Democrats in '20...after a suitable period of chaos and suffering, that is.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Daehawk » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:27 am

Ive never seen a President want to intentionally hurt the American people more than Trump.
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by malchior » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:06 am

Kraken wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:16 am
If upheld, this will make Medicare-for-all the issue that shoos in Democrats in '20...after a suitable period of chaos and suffering, that is.
From what I've read tonight it almost certainly won't be upheld. The ruling was a shambles legally speaking according to several analysts. If it gets to the Supreme Court which is a big maybe can anyone see Roberts deciding that the mandate getting repealed invalidates the whole law? No way. The whole thing is absurd.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Holman » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:14 am

Given the right-wing penchant for projection, I assume the GOP replacement for the ACA is just straight-up Death Panels.
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Fitzy » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:42 am

Who will appeal? Wouldn’t that normally be the Federal government’s job? But they supported the lawsuit...

Can the other states appeal?

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Exodor » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:29 am

Fitzy wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:42 am
Who will appeal? Wouldn’t that normally be the Federal government’s job? But they supported the lawsuit...

Can the other states appeal?
Article I read last night quoted the California AG as saying he would appeal.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Grifman » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:10 pm

malchior wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:06 am
Kraken wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:16 am
If upheld, this will make Medicare-for-all the issue that shoos in Democrats in '20...after a suitable period of chaos and suffering, that is.
From what I've read tonight it almost certainly won't be upheld. The ruling was a shambles legally speaking according to several analysts. If it gets to the Supreme Court which is a big maybe can anyone see Roberts deciding that the mandate getting repealed invalidates the whole law? No way. The whole thing is absurd.
From what I've read, this judge is an extremely partisan hack, who makes little attempt at appearing even handed. As such this ruling was not unexpected. Indeed, it is widely believed that he had already decided a long time ago and only with held his ruling so as to not hurt Republicans in the recent elections 0 which again shows his partisanship.

Most experts, liberal and conservative regard the ruling as absurd, which just shows how badly partisan this judge is. He is clearly ignoring the intent of Congress as explicitly stated when the mandate was repealed. This was always headed to the Supreme Court. I just hope Roberts still has the courage of his convictions to overturn this as he did with his previous decision on Obamacare.

Note: I have a personal stake in this as an early retiree with pre-existing conditions, I am dependent upon Obamacare.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Grifman » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:11 pm

Fitzy wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:42 am
Who will appeal? Wouldn’t that normally be the Federal government’s job? But they supported the lawsuit...

Can the other states appeal?
The Democrats defended the law in court by hiring lawyers when the admin refused to do so.
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Kraken » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:09 pm

Since the spanking that they took in the midterms is being widely blamed on their opposition to the ACA, I don't imagine most Republicans are gloating over the prospect of stripping 17+ million Grifmans of their health insurance. I hope you guys are right about the partisan SC doing the right thing.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by El Guapo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:05 pm

Grifman wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:10 pm
malchior wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:06 am
Kraken wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:16 am
If upheld, this will make Medicare-for-all the issue that shoos in Democrats in '20...after a suitable period of chaos and suffering, that is.
From what I've read tonight it almost certainly won't be upheld. The ruling was a shambles legally speaking according to several analysts. If it gets to the Supreme Court which is a big maybe can anyone see Roberts deciding that the mandate getting repealed invalidates the whole law? No way. The whole thing is absurd.
From what I've read, this judge is an extremely partisan hack, who makes little attempt at appearing even handed. As such this ruling was not unexpected. Indeed, it is widely believed that he had already decided a long time ago and only with held his ruling so as to not hurt Republicans in the recent elections 0 which again shows his partisanship.

Most experts, liberal and conservative regard the ruling as absurd, which just shows how badly partisan this judge is. He is clearly ignoring the intent of Congress as explicitly stated when the mandate was repealed. This was always headed to the Supreme Court. I just hope Roberts still has the courage of his convictions to overturn this as he did with his previous decision on Obamacare.

Note: I have a personal stake in this as an early retiree with pre-existing conditions, I am dependent upon Obamacare.
It's unnerving, but the SCOTUS majority that upheld the ACA in 2012 (liberal justices + Roberts) is all still on the court. And if Roberts wasn't inclined to overturn the ACA when the political environment was a lot more favorable to that, and when the legal arguments against it were much stronger than the one in the present lawsuit, it's really hard to see why he would do that now.

I mean, you never know, but seems unlikely.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Kraken » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:31 pm

This would be amusing if it weren't so sad: Trump's election set off a birth control boom.
Brigham and Women’s Hospital researchers have documented a trend in women’s health that had previously been reported mostly anecdotally: President Trump’s election set off a birth control boom.

In the immediate aftermath of the Nov. 8, 2016, upset election, women rushed to secure long-acting, reversible contraception — the kind that could feasibly last through the duration of a Trump presidency. Compared to the same monthlong period in the previous year, demand for IUDs and other implants spiked 21.6 percent, according to the study, which was published in JAMA Internal Medicine online Monday.

Trump campaigned on repealing the Affordable Care Act, which made birth control coverage standard under private employers’ insurance plans, as well as in subsidized care. Since 2013, women have been able to get birth control without copayments.

After the election, with the imminent threat of repeal, reports began surfacing that women were rushing to doctors and clinics seeking IUDs and other implants known as long-acting reversible contraception. Such methods, which have steep up-front costs, provide birth control for years and are considered the most effective method on the market.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Holman » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:22 pm

Duck Dynasty guy: you don't need healthcare because you have God.



Seriously. It isn't even "health is temporary, heaven is eternal." It's "You don't need doctors because I've never needed them and I have God."

It's 100% crazy and also just two or four years from being a GOP litmus position.
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Skinypupy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:45 am

Holman wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:22 pm
Duck Dynasty guy: you don't need healthcare because you have God.
God = My own massive bank account which allows me access to the best healthcare in the world any time I want.

Oh...you poors don't all have that? Guess you'll just need to pray harder then and hope for the best!
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by raydude » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:38 pm

Holman wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:22 pm
Duck Dynasty guy: you don't need healthcare because you have God.



Seriously. It isn't even "health is temporary, heaven is eternal." It's "You don't need doctors because I've never needed them and I have God."

It's 100% crazy and also just two or four years from being a GOP litmus position.
Just once I'd like to see someone espousing this position go on the attack and ask the interviewer "You don't have health insurance do you? You do?! Let's go f'king cancel it now! I'll wait!"

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by LordMortis » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:30 pm

raydude wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:38 pm
Just once I'd like to see someone espousing this position go on the attack and ask the interviewer "You don't have health insurance do you? You do?! Let's go f'king cancel it now! I'll wait!"
He might not. He's got his. He doesn't need Jesus or Insurance when he's worth millions.

OTOH, let's have the interviewer break his legs and let him wait for God provide him health care with no temporary reprieve.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:36 pm

God prevents your legs from being broken in the first place. Healthcare isn't important because I've never needed it and I would rather die than have someone else help me stay alive is a serious world view, apparently, one that has been espoused here on OO.

It's insane, but here we are.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Unagi » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:59 pm

Holman wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:22 pm
Duck Dynasty guy: you don't need healthcare because you have God.
/devil's advocate:

How is that not entirely true if one is, as one is supposed , to put their full and unquestioning faith in the lord above? Seriously?

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Holman » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:24 am

Unagi wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:59 pm
Holman wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:22 pm
Duck Dynasty guy: you don't need healthcare because you have God.
/devil's advocate:

How is that not entirely true if one is, as one is supposed , to put their full and unquestioning faith in the lord above? Seriously?
Partly it's weird because no significant Christian denomination has -ever- taught that believers don't need health care. "God heals all illnesses" has just never been a thing, no doubt because it is so obviously disproven every day.

It used to be that you had to go to Christian Science or the Jehovah's Witnesses for that, which is why they've always been seen as kind of culty. But apparently there's a small but lately-more-visible trend among certain hardcore Evangelicals to reject traditional medicine as well. I guys Duckbeard is one of these.

Darwin wins again.
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:48 am

So what is his son? A heretic?
Doctors sedated Jep Robertson in the intensive care unit. He remained on a ventilator for four days, and even had to be tied down to his bed. Robertson didn’t even remember his mother, who’s known as Miss Kay on the hit show, ABC News has learned.
Enlarge Image

It's all bullshit. He got his and hates the idea of sharing. God is a nice way of telling the proles to just crawl away and go die quietly.


What he and most people don't understand is that without everyone having paid care there probably wouldn't be nearby facilities open 24 hours ready to save his and his loved ones' lives. There wouldn't be heart surgeons with enough experience to save his duck fat soaked heart. It is in everyone's interest to have a robust, inclusive healthcare system even if they only want it for selfish reasons.
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by LordMortis » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:02 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:48 am
What he and most people don't understand is that without everyone having paid care there probably wouldn't be nearby facilities open 24 hours ready to save his and his loved ones' lives. There wouldn't be heart surgeons with enough experience to save his duck fat soaked heart. It is in everyone's interest to have a robust, inclusive healthcare system even if they only want it for selfish reasons.
I don't get why this is completely impossible for so many to understand. I really try to generally be open to discussion but when you hit me like you are discussing from a place of knowledge and authority with things like Tax is Theft or The US is not a Democracy you get exactly one chance at communication before I am done with you and consider you hopeless. How do you engage in discussion when one person accepts ideology for bumperstickers that relies on language prestidigitation as some sort of unquestionable tautology but rejects demonstrably true large picture process flows. I find myself going from open to holding to contempt too quickly for my own liking, so I walk away.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Unagi » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:11 pm

Holman wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:24 am
Unagi wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:59 pm
Holman wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:22 pm
Duck Dynasty guy: you don't need healthcare because you have God.
/devil's advocate:

How is that not entirely true if one is, as one is supposed , to put their full and unquestioning faith in the lord above? Seriously?
Partly it's weird because no significant Christian denomination has -ever- taught that believers don't need health care. "God heals all illnesses" has just never been a thing, no doubt because it is so obviously disproven every day.

It used to be that you had to go to Christian Science or the Jehovah's Witnesses for that, which is why they've always been seen as kind of culty. But apparently there's a small but lately-more-visible trend among certain hardcore Evangelicals to reject traditional medicine as well. I guys Duckbeard is one of these.

Darwin wins again.
but if you lived a good Christian life and just let nature take its course, then you will find yourself in Heaven, and that is the end-game goal. So if one truly believed in it, one wouldn't be wrong to just let nature take it's course and win win win.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by pr0ner » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:17 pm

Unagi wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:11 pm
Holman wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:24 am
Unagi wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:59 pm
Holman wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:22 pm
Duck Dynasty guy: you don't need healthcare because you have God.
/devil's advocate:

How is that not entirely true if one is, as one is supposed , to put their full and unquestioning faith in the lord above? Seriously?
Partly it's weird because no significant Christian denomination has -ever- taught that believers don't need health care. "God heals all illnesses" has just never been a thing, no doubt because it is so obviously disproven every day.

It used to be that you had to go to Christian Science or the Jehovah's Witnesses for that, which is why they've always been seen as kind of culty. But apparently there's a small but lately-more-visible trend among certain hardcore Evangelicals to reject traditional medicine as well. I guys Duckbeard is one of these.

Darwin wins again.
but if you lived a good Christian life and just let nature take its course, then you will find yourself in Heaven, and that is the end-game goal. So if one truly believed in it, one wouldn't be wrong to just let nature take it's course and win win win.
:roll:
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by raydude » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:32 pm

Unagi wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:11 pm
Holman wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:24 am
Unagi wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:59 pm
Holman wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:22 pm
Duck Dynasty guy: you don't need healthcare because you have God.
/devil's advocate:

How is that not entirely true if one is, as one is supposed , to put their full and unquestioning faith in the lord above? Seriously?
Partly it's weird because no significant Christian denomination has -ever- taught that believers don't need health care. "God heals all illnesses" has just never been a thing, no doubt because it is so obviously disproven every day.

It used to be that you had to go to Christian Science or the Jehovah's Witnesses for that, which is why they've always been seen as kind of culty. But apparently there's a small but lately-more-visible trend among certain hardcore Evangelicals to reject traditional medicine as well. I guys Duckbeard is one of these.

Darwin wins again.
but if you lived a good Christian life and just let nature take its course, then you will find yourself in Heaven, and that is the end-game goal. So if one truly believed in it, one wouldn't be wrong to just let nature take it's course and win win win.
Let's say this is true. Then would you agree that DuckBeard and son are heretics because they actually used modern medicine instead of trying to pray the meningitis away, and therefore not true examples of this belief system?

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Holman » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:34 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:48 am

What he and most people don't understand is that without everyone having paid care there probably wouldn't be nearby facilities open 24 hours ready to save his and his loved ones' lives. There wouldn't be heart surgeons with enough experience to save his duck fat soaked heart. It is in everyone's interest to have a robust, inclusive healthcare system even if they only want it for selfish reasons.
It's almost like everyone benefits--even indirectly--from enhancing the Common Good.

(I once heard a hard-core Ayn Randian argue that actually education was bad because widespread learning made his own knowledge less superior and therefore less valuable to the market.)
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by pr0ner » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:41 pm

Holman wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:34 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:48 am

What he and most people don't understand is that without everyone having paid care there probably wouldn't be nearby facilities open 24 hours ready to save his and his loved ones' lives. There wouldn't be heart surgeons with enough experience to save his duck fat soaked heart. It is in everyone's interest to have a robust, inclusive healthcare system even if they only want it for selfish reasons.
It's almost like everyone benefits--even indirectly--from enhancing the Common Good.

(I once heard a hard-core Ayn Randian argue that actually education was bad because widespread learning made his own knowledge less superior and therefore less valuable to the market.)
That's amazing. And not at all out of line from the thinking I've heard other hardcore Randians espouse.
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:48 pm

Some people would rather rule an empire of dirt than be a part of a thriving community.
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Skinypupy » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:16 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:48 pm
Some people would rather rule an empire of dirt than be a part of a thriving community.
Would that let them down? Make them hurt?

(sorry, couldn't resist)
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:09 pm

Skinypupy wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:16 pm
Isgrimnur wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:48 pm
Some people would rather rule an empire of dirt than be a part of a thriving community.
Would that let them down? Make them hurt?

(sorry, couldn't resist)
Something something Neil Peart.

I just wanted to be part of the thing.

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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Brian » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:00 pm

Pedantic: Except that, if pronounced correctly, Peart (peert) does not rhyme.
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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:09 pm

Brian wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:00 pm
Pedantic: Except that, if pronounced correctly, Peart (peert) does not rhyme.
If it helps, I pronounce hurt = hear-tuh and dirt = deer-tuh.


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Re: Trump's Full Court Press on healthcare

Post by Victoria Raverna » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:27 pm

raydude wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:32 pm
Unagi wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:11 pm
Holman wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:24 am
Unagi wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:59 pm
Holman wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:22 pm
Duck Dynasty guy: you don't need healthcare because you have God.
/devil's advocate:

How is that not entirely true if one is, as one is supposed , to put their full and unquestioning faith in the lord above? Seriously?
Partly it's weird because no significant Christian denomination has -ever- taught that believers don't need health care. "God heals all illnesses" has just never been a thing, no doubt because it is so obviously disproven every day.

It used to be that you had to go to Christian Science or the Jehovah's Witnesses for that, which is why they've always been seen as kind of culty. But apparently there's a small but lately-more-visible trend among certain hardcore Evangelicals to reject traditional medicine as well. I guys Duckbeard is one of these.

Darwin wins again.
but if you lived a good Christian life and just let nature take its course, then you will find yourself in Heaven, and that is the end-game goal. So if one truly believed in it, one wouldn't be wrong to just let nature take it's course and win win win.
Let's say this is true. Then would you agree that DuckBeard and son are heretics because they actually used modern medicine instead of trying to pray the meningitis away, and therefore not true examples of this belief system?
Not using modern medicine when it is available is the same as suicide. Suicide = Go To Hell.

So maybe that is part of reason why some "religious crazies" are against healthcare for all. If it is available then it is suicide to not using it. If it is not available, then you can let nature take its course. ;)

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