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Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

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Fitzy
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by Fitzy » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:47 pm

malchior wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:35 pm
Fitzy wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:51 am
Allow me to restate, WE SHOULD NEVER HAVE GOTTEN TO A POINT WHERE A SHUTDOWN WAS EVEN AN OPTION

All of the appropriation bills should have been done before Sept 30. Given the power imbalance, this is mostly on the Republicans. However, given that the Democrats do have enough votes to block any funding bill in the Senate, they should get some of the blame.
You have to explain this because it doesn't really compute. The Republicans held all the levers but because the Dems had some measure of 'blocking power' they had responsibility? I could go with that if the Dems had used that power meaningfully. They didn't drag out the budget process. It was the WH and the Republican leadership. 100%. I guess you could argue there is some delay around the edges you could pin on the Dems through the course of normal BAU but heaping any meaningful part of the blame on them...feels a bit unjust and not realistic.
The Republicans got on the lion faster and better than the Democrats did. Rather than realize that the lion is going to eat the Republicans, the Democrats are trying to raise their own lion. As long as both sides insist that their lion is better than the other lion, there is no chance at compromise. In this case the lion is simply the extremes of the two parties.

They’ve long appealed to their base voters, but there was always a necessary pivot back to the center to win general elections. The Tea Party demonstrated that wasn’t necessary and Trump perfected it. He won by targeting a vocal, small minority who would vote in droves while demoralizing the other side. The Democrats with the push left are trying to duplicate it.

Right now the Democrats’ lion is still stretching its muscles and not yet hungry. But it’s eyeing the juicy antelope (or whatever lions eat) that the Republican lion gets and it wants it. Lions are lazy though, so there’s a small window for the Democrats to walk away.

If the Democrats decide to feed their lion, what’s left but the torn carcasses of herbivores?

That is how I see the big picture.

The Democrats are trying to treat the current situation like past ones. They can’t. Trump is insane. They also can’t try to out crazy him. It’s not possible. The only long term solution is to work with whatever remaining Republicans are willing to forgo insanity and present done deals long before the deadlines. The closer to the deadline they get, the more power they give the crazy person.

So yeah, I heavily fault the Republicans for the current situation. I am well aware that most of the disfunction right now is on them and more specfically on Trump. I also believe that if we don’t reign in the Democrats now, there will be no opportunity to do so later and at that point things will get bad for real. And I look back at the last few decades and I see both parties heading down this path, it isn’t all on the Republicans. They just did it better.

For that reason, I’m not going to stop pointing out where I think the Democrats are failing. I think that in a two party system, giving one side uncritical support is going to result in a terrible system, even if the other side is currently nuts.

Or to put it into metaphor form, just because one psychiatrist is poisoning the patient, is no reason to keep taking the wrong meds from the other psychiatrist. You know, if people had two psychiatrists. One of whom was poisoning them, the other who just gave the wrong meds so they never get better... I’ll work on my metaphors.

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Fitzy
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by Fitzy » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:50 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:18 pm
Yeah, for reals.

In light of your awareness I find your previous post confusing.

Make sure you take your carefully considered both sides when you vote in 2020. Maybe you can find an independent you like, or spoil your vote.
I will! If I’m really lucky I’ll get to cast the deciding vote for Trump** just to piss of the Canadian who is not affected by any of this, but thinks it’s important to mock* people who are directly affected 👍🏻

*I did mock your black and white view of politics, so your mocking me back was justified.

**I have not and will not vote for trump nor will I vote for any Republican who won’t stand up to him directly by voting against him nor will I vote for an independent in an election that might throw support to a Republican who will support Trump in any manner.
Last edited by Fitzy on Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Fitzy
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by Fitzy » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:50 pm
Fitzy wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:51 am

Which brings me back full circle to... there’s blame on both sides. Not equal blame. But yep, both sides are going to have to compromise to get anything done. I realize that doesn’t fit into your world view of “Trump bad, Dems good” but it is the actual reality.
What compromises have the GOP put forth? If you need the help of the minority party, then you need to do something to get that help. You don't just blame the Democrats for not giving in to every demand.
For the Shutdown? They had the Senate bill, but that is clearly on Trump, as I said. The Republicans, McConnell, need to pull their collective heads out of their asses and pass the bill they already passed. Make Trump veto it and override it.

The disfunction of the overall government goes well beyond Republicans. The Republicans are much more to blame but there is plenty left to put on the Democrats.

As an example, if they are unwilling to support any wall/barrier in the upcoming appropriations, we will be right back here every time funding runs out. If, the Democrats work with some Republicans in the House and Senate, if they get the appropriation bills for next year out well before the deadline, than I’ll believe they are trying to govern responsibily.

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YellowKing
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by YellowKing » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:36 pm

Fitzy wrote:As an example, if they are unwilling to support any wall/barrier in the upcoming appropriations,
They shouldn't support it. Their constituents don't want it. A vast majority of the American people don't want it. Trump took ownership for the shutdown. If he wants to compromise, let him do so. There's zero percent burden on the Democrats to do anything at this point. Just meeting with this traitorous lying psychopath is going above and beyond in my opinion.

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GreenGoo
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:07 pm

Fitzy wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:50 pm

I will! If I’m really lucky I’ll get to cast the deciding vote for Trump** just to piss of the Canadian who is not affected by any of this, but thinks it’s important to mock* people who are directly affected 👍🏻
You're just a bundle of smiles today, aren't you?

Anything else you need to get off your chest?

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Alefroth
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by Alefroth » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:41 am

Fitzy wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:56 pm
Alefroth wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:50 pm
Fitzy wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:51 am

Which brings me back full circle to... there’s blame on both sides. Not equal blame. But yep, both sides are going to have to compromise to get anything done. I realize that doesn’t fit into your world view of “Trump bad, Dems good” but it is the actual reality.
What compromises have the GOP put forth? If you need the help of the minority party, then you need to do something to get that help. You don't just blame the Democrats for not giving in to every demand.
For the Shutdown? They had the Senate bill, but that is clearly on Trump, as I said. The Republicans, McConnell, need to pull their collective heads out of their asses and pass the bill they already passed. Make Trump veto it and override it.

The disfunction of the overall government goes well beyond Republicans. The Republicans are much more to blame but there is plenty left to put on the Democrats.

As an example, if they are unwilling to support any wall/barrier in the upcoming appropriations, we will be right back here every time funding runs out. If, the Democrats work with some Republicans in the House and Senate, if they get the appropriation bills for next year out well before the deadline, than I’ll believe they are trying to govern responsibily.
What course of action would you see the Dems take at this point?

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Fitzy
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by Fitzy » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:05 am

YellowKing wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:36 pm
Fitzy wrote:As an example, if they are unwilling to support any wall/barrier in the upcoming appropriations,
They shouldn't support it. Their constituents don't want it. A vast majority of the American people don't want it. Trump took ownership for the shutdown. If he wants to compromise, let him do so. There's zero percent burden on the Democrats to do anything at this point. Just meeting with this traitorous lying psychopath is going above and beyond in my opinion.
I wasn’t talking about the shutdown. I was talking about 2020 appropriations. Nor was I suggesting a full border wall. The Democrats are going to have to agree that there are places along the border that need walls/fencing/barriers. They should be kept to a minimum but the need does exist.

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Fitzy
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by Fitzy » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:12 am

Alefroth wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:41 am
What course of action would you see the Dems take at this point?
Agree to a discussion of immigration reform including how best to manage border traffic. No money until evidence of need provided and House/Senate negotiators decide on a compromise, preferably for next years appropriation.

Is that somehow bad?

I just don’t see how “no walls ever” is a good negotiating tactic that gets us past this shutdown.

malchior
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by malchior » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:18 am

Fitzy wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:12 am
Alefroth wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:41 am
What course of action would you see the Dems take at this point?
Agree to a discussion of immigration reform including how best to manage border traffic. No money until evidence of need provided and House/Senate negotiators decide on a compromise, preferably for next years appropriation.

Is that somehow bad?

I just don’t see how “no walls ever” is a good negotiating tactic that gets us past this shutdown.
As far as I believe it has been reported and how everyone is talking it isn't 'no walls ever' it is no to 'the wall'. If you watch enough, you'll see people all complaining about the same thing. He wants 'the wall' yet there is no plan for 'the wall'. He is standing around asking for an amount of money to build something with no plan. There is no negotiating with that. It is impossible. That is why Schumer called it negotiating with jello.

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YellowKing
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by YellowKing » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:19 am

The Dems at one time did agree to wall funding with the whole DACA thing. The GOP & President rejected it.

You can't compromise with someone if they're unwilling to give up anything in return.

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Fitzy
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by Fitzy » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:22 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:07 pm
Fitzy wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:50 pm

I will! If I’m really lucky I’ll get to cast the deciding vote for Trump** just to piss of the Canadian who is not affected by any of this, but thinks it’s important to mock* people who are directly affected 👍🏻
You're just a bundle of smiles today, aren't you?
Good point. I mean, despite knowing people are likely dying and that every death my wife learns about after she returns will personally hurt her as one she could have prevented, I should look on the bright side, at least the Democratic base is getting to stick it to Trump and his supporters and the Republican base is getting to get stick it to them lib Dems. Over a wall that no matter how you look at it doesn’t matter.

But yes, I’ll smile. Thanks!

I’ll step aside now. I can’t deal with the utter stupidity of this shutdown right now and every time I try to engage I get pissed off and that works out sooooo well in my attempts to explain my position. I’m literally doing the mistake i think others are.

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YellowKing
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by YellowKing » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:26 am

Also to be clear, the President/GOP have rejected every offer for partial wall funding. It's 5 billion or the highway. I understand the frustration, but that's what you get when you elect "the art of the deal" as President.

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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:30 am

Fitzy wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:22 am
Good point. I mean, despite knowing people are likely dying and that every death my wife learns about after she returns will personally hurt her as one she could have prevented, I should look on the bright side, at least the Democratic base is getting to stick it to Trump and his supporters and the Republican base is getting to get stick it to them lib Dems. Over a wall that no matter how you look at it doesn’t matter.

But yes, I’ll smile. Thanks!

I’ll step aside now. I can’t deal with the utter stupidity of this shutdown right now and every time I try to engage I get pissed off and that works out sooooo well in my attempts to explain my position. I’m literally doing the mistake i think others are.
That's right, I'm wondering why you aren't more upbeat.

I don't break these out often.

:roll:

Just so there's no confusion, you're being a dick. Bundle of smiles is not about you being upset about the shutdown, which is warranted and understandable, it's about your disproportionate responses to people trying to engage you. Well, specifically me. I don't speak for others in this case.

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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:59 am

Fitzy wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:12 am
Alefroth wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:41 am
What course of action would you see the Dems take at this point?
Agree to a discussion of immigration reform including how best to manage border traffic. No money until evidence of need provided and House/Senate negotiators decide on a compromise, preferably for next years appropriation.

Is that somehow bad?

I just don’t see how “no walls ever” is a good negotiating tactic that gets us past this shutdown.
That's not the platform.

The DNC platform on immigration is "The Democratic Party supports legal immigration, within reasonable limits, that meets the needs of families, communities, and the economy as well as maintains the United States’ role as a beacon of hope for people seeking safety, freedom, and security. People should come to the United States with visas and not through smugglers. Yet, we recognize that the current immigration system is broken."

The evidence is there to back it up. Immigration fell under Obama AND his administration deported a record number of illegal immigrants.

Don't fall for the propaganda.
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Re: Too Late To Start Thinking About 2018?

Post by Alefroth » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:07 pm

Fitzy wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:12 am
Alefroth wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:41 am
What course of action would you see the Dems take at this point?
Agree to a discussion of immigration reform including how best to manage border traffic. No money until evidence of need provided and House/Senate negotiators decide on a compromise, preferably for next years appropriation.

Is that somehow bad?
It's not bad. I don't see how it ends the shutdown though.

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