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Russia influences election

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Papa Smurph
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Russia influences election

Post by Papa Smurph » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:02 am

Hillary Clinton: I may have inappropriately used email.
CIA and FBI: Yep, a mistake, but not a national security issue.
Donald Trump: LOCK HER UP!
Voters: Can't trust Clinton, so elect Trump (maybe, if the vote wasn't rigged).

CIA and FBI: There is evidence that Russia influenced the election in Trump's favor. (There is also evidence that Trump may have colluded with Russia.)
Hillary Clinton: <crickets>
Donald Trump: Nothing to see here. Look, a squirrel!
Voters: Duh, OK. Hey, why is my job still being shipped to Mexico?

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Defiant » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:47 am

IMO, The Russians hacked the election. They just did it by hacking people* instead of the election machines. But people are still part of the system.

*such as using wikileaks, using russian trolls disseminating false information, etc.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Kraken » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:46 am

Papa Smurph wrote:(There is also evidence that Trump may have colluded with Russia.)
Cite? I have not seen this accusation supported by a reputable source.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Max Peck » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:15 am

Kraken wrote:
Papa Smurph wrote:(There is also evidence that Trump may have colluded with Russia.)
Cite? I have not seen this accusation supported by a reputable source.
Yeah, I haven't seen anything either (but in the Trump era, what really matters is whether we feel it, not whether we know it).

However, it would explain his bizarre tactic of aggressively defending Russia as opposed simply saying that his campaign had nothing to do with it. It is in his nature to defend himself reflexively, but not so much to jump to the defense of others.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by El Guapo » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:25 am

This is the only reputable thing I've seen on direct contacts between Trump and Russia.
Accused by defeated Democratic contender Hillary Clinton of being a puppet of President Vladimir Putin after praising the Russian leader, Trump has dismissed suggestions he had anything to do with the Russian government during the campaign.

But in comments that could prove politically awkward for the president-elect, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said there had indeed been some communications.


"There were contacts," Interfax cited Ryabkov as saying. "We are doing this and have been doing this during the election campaign."

Such contacts would continue, he added, saying the Russian government knew and had been in touch with many of Trump's closest allies. He did not name names.

"Obviously, we know most of the people from his (Trump's) entourage. Those people have always been in the limelight in the United States and have occupied high-ranking positions," he said.
I think the charitable explanation for this is that the contacts were ordinary efforts to keep a dialogue with someone who might (now will) be President.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Defiant » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:36 am

IIRC, there was also circumstantial evidence of some server in Trump's campaign having some sort of contact with a computer at a Russian bank, but it was more of an open question as to what that communication was, not hard evidence of collusion.

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El Guapo
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by El Guapo » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:44 am

Defiant wrote:IIRC, there was also circumstantial evidence of some server in Trump's campaign having some sort of contact with a computer at a Russian bank, but it was more of an open question as to what that communication was, not hard evidence of collusion.
As I recall that was mostly debunked (i.e. people figured out that there was an innocent explanation - I think something like the Trump organization was using a Russian company to send out marketing / spam e-mails or something like that).

The more troubling issue is more the extensive contacts between Trump's inner circle (Manafort, Carter Page, I guess now Rex Tillerson) and Putin's Russia.

Also, I do wonder what the hell would happen if it surfaced that people in Trump's inner circle had direct contact with Russia over election meddling.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:50 am

El Guapo wrote:Also, I do wonder what the hell would happen if it surfaced that people in Trump's inner circle had direct contact with Russia over election meddling.
Chris Christie gets appointed as special prosecutor.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by malchior » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:59 am

El Guapo wrote:
Defiant wrote:As I recall that was mostly debunked (i.e. people figured out that there was an innocent explanation - I think something like the Trump organization was using a Russian company to send out marketing / spam e-mails or something like that).
Not debunked but considered unrelated...it moreso indicates he lied about bring financed by Russian Banks. The "marketing server" was shut down and then showed back up days later. But we are way past that I suppose. Who knows if that will truly ever come to light. :naughty:

Harry Reid on the way out the door however is alleging direct links (with the campaign) based on briefings he received from intelligence agencies.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Defiant » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:16 am

El Guapo wrote:
As I recall that was mostly debunked (i.e. people figured out that there was an innocent explanation - I think something like the Trump organization was using a Russian company to send out marketing / spam e-mails or something like that).

Ah, I missed that. What I read had said that Trump's campaign consistently avoided responding to questions on it.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:19 am

There's little doubt that Roger Stone was in contact with WikiLeaks. As a professional Dirty Trickster, Stone is likely to be hip-deep in something illegal there, although he might try to argue a degree of separation from Moscow.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by malchior » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:05 pm

malchior wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Defiant wrote:As I recall that was mostly debunked (i.e. people figured out that there was an innocent explanation - I think something like the Trump organization was using a Russian company to send out marketing / spam e-mails or something like that).
Not debunked but considered unrelated...it moreso indicates he lied about bring financed by Russian Banks. The "marketing server" was shut down and then showed back up days later. But we are way past that I suppose. Who knows if that will truly ever come to light. :naughty:

Harry Reid on the way out the door however is alleging direct links (with the campaign) based on briefings he received from intelligence agencies.
FWIW - I just looked it up and Alfa denied any financial ties to Trump. Guess we'll have to take them all at their word on it.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by LordMortis » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:27 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/us/po ... d=fb-share
TRUMP: She wants open borders. People are going to pour into our country. People are going to come in from Syria. She wants 550 percent more people than Barack Obama, and he has thousands and thousands of people. They have no idea where they come from.

And you see, we are going to stop radical Islamic terrorism in this country. She won’t even mention the words, and neither will President Obama. So I just want to tell you, she wants open borders.

Now we can talk about Putin. I don’t know Putin. He said nice things about me. If we got along well, that would be good. If Russia and the United States got along well and went after ISIS, that would be good.

He has no respect for her. He has no respect for our president. And I’ll tell you what: We’re in very serious trouble, because we have a country with tremendous numbers of nuclear warheads — 1,800, by the way — where they expanded and we didn’t, 1,800 nuclear warheads. And she’s playing chicken. Look, Putin...

WALLACE: Wait, but...

TRUMP: ... from everything I see, has no respect for this person.

CLINTON: Well, that’s because he’d rather have a puppet as president of the United States.

TRUMP: No puppet. No puppet.

CLINTON: And it’s pretty clear...

TRUMP: You’re the puppet!

CLINTON: It’s pretty clear you won’t admit...

TRUMP: No, you’re the puppet.

CLINTON: ... that the Russians have engaged in cyberattacks against the United States of America, that you encouraged espionage against our people, that you are willing to spout the Putin line, sign up for his wish list, break up NATO, do whatever he wants to do, and that you continue to get help from him, because he has a very clear favorite in this race.

So I think that this is such an unprecedented situation. We’ve never had a foreign government trying to interfere in our election. We have 17 — 17 intelligence agencies, civilian and military, who have all concluded that these espionage attacks, these cyberattacks, come from the highest levels of the Kremlin and they are designed to influence our election. I find that deeply disturbing.

WALLACE: Secretary Clinton...

CLINTON: And I think it’s time you take a stand...

TRUMP: She has no idea whether it’s Russia, China, or anybody else.

CLINTON: I am not quoting myself.

TRUMP: She has no idea.

CLINTON: I am quoting 17...

TRUMP: Hillary, you have no idea.

CLINTON: ... 17 intelligence — do you doubt 17 military and civilian...

TRUMP: And our country has no idea.

CLINTON: ... agencies.

TRUMP: Yeah, I doubt it. I doubt it.

CLINTON: Well, he’d rather believe Vladimir Putin than the military and civilian intelligence professionals who are sworn to protect us. I find that just absolutely...

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: She doesn’t like Putin because Putin has outsmarted her at every step of the way.

WALLACE: Mr. Trump...

TRUMP: Excuse me. Putin has outsmarted her in Syria.

WALLACE: Mr. Trump...

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: He’s outsmarted her every step of the way.

WALLACE: I do get to ask some questions.

TRUMP: Yes, that’s fine.

WALLACE: And I would like to ask you this direct question. The top national security officials of this country do believe that Russia has been behind these hacks. Even if you don’t know for sure whether they are, do you condemn any interference by Russia in the American election?

TRUMP: By Russia or anybody else.

WALLACE: You condemn their interference?

TRUMP: Of course I condemn. Of course I — I don’t know Putin. I have no idea.

WALLACE: I’m not asking — I’m asking do you condemn?

TRUMP: I never met Putin. This is not my best friend. But if the United States got along with Russia, wouldn’t be so bad.

Let me tell you, Putin has outsmarted her and Obama at every single step of the way. Whether it’s Syria, you name it. Missiles. Take a look at the “start up” that they signed. The Russians have said, according to many, many reports, I can’t believe they allowed us to do this. They create warheads, and we can’t. The Russians can’t believe it. She has been outsmarted by Putin.

And all you have to do is look at the Middle East. They’ve taken over. We’ve spent $6 trillion. They’ve taken over the Middle East. She has been outsmarted and outplayed worse than anybody I’ve ever seen in any government whatsoever.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Remus West » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:36 pm

I'm honestly beginning to wonder if we are watching a real life "Americans" story line starring Donald Trump as the Soviet Russian spy. If so then Putin really did outsmart our government. Hell, even if Trump isn't Putin outsmarted our government by being able to so easily manipulate our election to get Orange man elected.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by LordMortis » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:10 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJvYTsiFzSk

In which Shep Smith tries to take over the Daily Show showing how fucked up the presidency is headed. The same story we've been hearing since wikileaks and the DNC.

I wish I could find the Trump quotes in from July (I think) praising "Russia or whoever it was for exposing the DNC." shortly before going off on how well the US and Russia need to get along.

Help me, obi wan Izzy, you're my only hope.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by UsulofDoom » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:16 pm

Papa Smurph wrote: Voters: Duh, OK. Hey, why is my job still being shipped to Mexico?
Voters: Why is my job being done by illegals in my country for less then minimum wage?
No one knows the truth, only hypothesis, assumptions, conjectures, speculations, presumptions, guesses and theories.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by El Guapo » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:17 pm

LordMortis wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJvYTsiFzSk

In which Shep Smith tries to take over the Daily Show showing how fucked up the presidency is headed. The same story we've been hearing since wikileaks and the DNC.

I wish I could find the Trump quotes in from July (I think) praising "Russia or whoever it was for exposing the DNC." shortly before going off on how well the US and Russia need to get along.

Help me, obi wan Izzy, you're my only hope.
Shepard Smith is interesting. He's the Fox News guy that goes rogue most often.

And the Trump quote you are referring to goes beyond what you said. He actually called for Russia to do more anti-Clinton hacks (although he later claimed to have been joking).

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:17 pm

Silver - 1k

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by LordMortis » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:19 pm

You have it.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:38 pm

Want to write my letter of recommendation for the Master's program? :D
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by LordMortis » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:42 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:Want to write my letter of recommendation for the Master's program? :D
You going to source it and edit it for correct content and clarity for me? You can make me look good making you look good.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Unagi » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:58 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:Want to write my letter of recommendation for the Master's program? :D
You going to source it and edit it for correct content and clarity for me? You can make me look good making you look good.
How about: "No, but I'll sign it!" :D

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by El Guapo » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:59 pm


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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Sepiche » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:54 pm

CIA says new intel indicates Vladmir Putin was directly involved in the operation:
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s ... ck-n696146
U.S. intelligence officials now believe with "a high level of confidence" that Russian President Vladimir Putin became personally involved in the covert Russian campaign to interfere in the U.S. presidential election, senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News.
...
The latest intelligence said to show Putin's involvement goes much further than the information the U.S. was relying on in October, when all 17 intelligence agencies signed onto a statement attributing the Democratic National Committee hack to Russia.

The statement said officials believed that "only Russia's senior-most officials could have authorized these activities." That was an intelligence judgment based on an understanding of the Russian system of government, which Putin controls with absolute authority.

Now the U.S has solid information tying Putin to the operation, the intelligence officials say. Their use of the term "high confidence" implies that the intelligence is nearly incontrovertible.

"It is most certainly consistent with the Putin that I have watched and used to work with when I was an ambassador and in the government," said Michael McFaul, who was ambassador to Russia from 2012 to 2014.

"He has had a vendetta against Hillary Clinton, that has been known for a long time because of what she said about his elections back in the parliamentary elections of 2011. He wants to discredit American democracy and make us weaker in terms of leading the liberal democratic order. And most certainly he likes President-elect Trump's views on Russia," McFaul added. Clinton cast doubt on the integrity of Russia's elections.

As part of contingency planning for potential retaliation against Russia, according to officials, U.S. intelligence agencies have stepped up their probing into his personal financial empire.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by El Guapo » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:57 pm

I'm not unhappy with all this coming out, BUT it definitely is contrary to what the CIA should be doing, right? Not leaking this stuff to the public? And if relevant CIA officers are comfortable leaking this stuff, why are they leaking it now, rather than, say, before the election?

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Sepiche » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:01 pm

El Guapo wrote:And if relevant CIA officers are comfortable leaking this stuff, why are they leaking it now, rather than, say, before the election?
If you read the article, it indicates there is new intelligence shared from European Intelligence agencies that helped form this new conclusion.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Pyperkub » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:26 pm

El Guapo wrote:I'm not unhappy with all this coming out, BUT it definitely is contrary to what the CIA should be doing, right? Not leaking this stuff to the public? And if relevant CIA officers are comfortable leaking this stuff, why are they leaking it now, rather than, say, before the election?
No, because it appears to be a manipulation of one of the fundamental tenets of our society, free and fair elections.
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Rip » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:37 pm

Seems a little contradictory to say that and do this.
House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes said Wednesday that top intelligence directors declined the panel’s request to brief lawmakers Tuesday on what he's called “conflicting assessments” of Russia’s apparent interference in the U.S. election.

The California Republican said in a letter Monday to Director of National Intelligence James Clapper that he was "dismayed that we did not learn earlier, from you directly, about … the CIA's reported revision of information previously conveyed to this committee." He said the CIA’s recent findings conflicted with briefings the panel received earlier in the year and asked for a briefing as soon as possible.

Top intelligence officials, however, rejected the panel’s request to come in Thursday, according to Nunes.

“It is unacceptable that the Intelligence Community directors would not fulfill the House Intelligence Committee’s request to be briefed tomorrow on the cyber-attacks that occurred during the presidential campaign,” Nunes said in a statement released Wednesday night. “The legislative branch is constitutionally vested with oversight responsibility of executive branch agencies, which are obligated to comply with our requests.”

Nunes said his panel had been “vigorously looking into reports of cyber-attacks during the election campaign.” He said they wanted to “clarify press reports that the CIA has a new assessment that it has not shared with us."

Intelligence officials’ refusal to brief the panel, he continued, allows for speculation and for their findings to be distorted. President-elect Donald Trump, for example, has suggested the CIA’s findings are false and a ploy by Democrats to undercut his Election Day victory.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/d ... ing-232663

Sounds like they just want everyone to assume they are right and not seek any details or proof. Something certainly smells fishy.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by TheMix » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:21 am

Right. Fishy. No one expects anything less from you. Putin could come out and own it personally and you'd argue against it. But, hey, a troll's gotta troll, huh?
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Rip » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:28 am

Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., slammed the intelligence community Wednesday for forcing the cancelation of a planned House Intelligence Committee briefing on alleged Russian interference in the U.S. election.

"All we’ve heard from the intelligence community over the last several months is that they could not say that there was any attempt to undermine Hillary Clinton [or] to help Donald Trump," King told Fox News' Megyn Kelly on "The Kelly File." "The consensus was that there was an attempt by the Russians to put a cloud over the election, to create disunity. Well, that’s what’s happening right now, but it’s the intelligence community that’s doing it."

King spoke hours after the committee abruptly canceled the scheduled Thursday briefing after the CIA declined to provide a briefer.
"Somebody has the time to leak it to the Washington Post and the New York Times, but they don’t have the time to come to Congress," said King, a member of the committee. "It’s their job to come. They don’t have any choice. They have to come in, especially when they have created this."

King added that lawmakers have not received any assessment from the CIA that Russia interfered to help Trump win the presidency over Hillary Clinton, allegations that were first reported by the Washington Post Friday.

"There was nothing at all, ever told to us, in fact they said they couldn’t prove it, that there was an attempt to favor one candidate over the other. [James] Clapper, the director of national intelligence, said that publicly on Nov. 17," King told Kelly.

"This violates all protocols and it’s almost as if people in the intelligence community are carrying out a disinformation campaign against the president-elect of the United States," the congressman added. "It’s absolutely disgraceful and if they’re not doing it, then it must be someone in the House or the Senate who’s leaking false information and there should be a full investigation of this."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/12 ... fresh=true

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Max Peck » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:39 am

It is endlessly fascinating to see Trump supporters acting as if allegations against Russia are attacks against Trump. It's almost as if they see Russia and Trump as one and the same.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Ralph-Wiggum » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:16 pm

I'm sure Rip will love this:
U.S. intelligence officials now believe with "a high level of confidence" that Russian President Vladimir Putin became personally involved in the covert Russian campaign to interfere in the U.S. presidential election, senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News.

Two senior officials with direct access to the information say new intelligence shows that Putin personally directed how hacked material from Democrats was leaked and otherwise used. The intelligence came from diplomatic sources and spies working for U.S. allies, the officials said.

Now the U.S has solid information tying Putin to the operation, the intelligence officials say. Their use of the term "high confidence" implies that the intelligence is nearly incontrovertible.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by The Meal » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:27 pm

538 wrote:30 percent

Share of Americans who rate Russia favorably, as of earlier this year. But public opinion about Russia tends to be way swingier than for other nations, so if the Trump administration takes a friendlier stance towards Russia, many Americans — particularly Republicans — might follow.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:30 pm

People are sheep. Of course, it doesn't help that I'm listening to this right now.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by noxiousdog » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:18 pm

Rip wrote:
Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., slammed the intelligence community Wednesday for forcing the cancelation of a planned House Intelligence Committee briefing on alleged Russian interference in the U.S. election.

"All we’ve heard from the intelligence community over the last several months is that they could not say that there was any attempt to undermine Hillary Clinton [or] to help Donald Trump," King told Fox News' Megyn Kelly on "The Kelly File." "The consensus was that there was an attempt by the Russians to put a cloud over the election, to create disunity. Well, that’s what’s happening right now, but it’s the intelligence community that’s doing it."

King spoke hours after the committee abruptly canceled the scheduled Thursday briefing after the CIA declined to provide a briefer.
"Somebody has the time to leak it to the Washington Post and the New York Times, but they don’t have the time to come to Congress," said King, a member of the committee. "It’s their job to come. They don’t have any choice. They have to come in, especially when they have created this."

King added that lawmakers have not received any assessment from the CIA that Russia interfered to help Trump win the presidency over Hillary Clinton, allegations that were first reported by the Washington Post Friday.

"There was nothing at all, ever told to us, in fact they said they couldn’t prove it, that there was an attempt to favor one candidate over the other. [James] Clapper, the director of national intelligence, said that publicly on Nov. 17," King told Kelly.

"This violates all protocols and it’s almost as if people in the intelligence community are carrying out a disinformation campaign against the president-elect of the United States," the congressman added. "It’s absolutely disgraceful and if they’re not doing it, then it must be someone in the House or the Senate who’s leaking false information and there should be a full investigation of this."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/12 ... fresh=true
From the related link inside, "In response to Fox News' initial report, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI), which oversees all 17 U.S. intelligence agencies, issued a statement claiming that lawmakers from both parties have received "extensive, detailed classified and unclassified briefings ... since last summer and have continued to do so after Election Day.""
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Combustible Lemur
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Combustible Lemur » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:24 pm

Hush you, people with a vested interest in ignoring a problem are way more reliable than the avowed neutral experts in a field.

Just ask doctors who work for Marlboro.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by hepcat » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:31 pm

And Trump is openly lying to people and saying that it's only now that we're hearing about Russian involvement in the election.

Truth is a thing of the past now. It may have been a rare commodity before, but openly lying with absolutely no facts to back your wild claims was at least called lying by most folks. Now it's seen as the truth...and any evidence to the contrary is seen as a tool of the "corrupt media". :roll:

Four years. Four years of this is ahead of us. I wonder what we'll look like after this is all over?
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by noxiousdog » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:33 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:Hush you, people with a vested interest in ignoring a problem are way more reliable than the avowed neutral experts in a field.

Just ask doctors who work for Marlboro.
Contextually I see where he might be upset. My guess is he's been ignoring the briefings for months and now wants one. That's how most crises work in bureaucracyland.

At least he's admitting a need for information.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by LordMortis » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:35 pm

hepcat wrote:Now it's seen as the truth...and any evidence to the contrary is seen as a tool of the "corrupt media". fake news :roll:

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by hepcat » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:38 pm

When has fake news ever presented evidence disproving a falsehood? :?
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