Russia influences election

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:02 am

So desperate. Sad.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:04 am

Wow, this is how the big talking dealmaker pro deflects? Like an amateur, 2 bit sales monkey? Deplorables got taken by a weak-minded punk.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:22 am

Nunes continues obstructionist Trump catering behavior - cancels all meetings for the week. Party over country so far.

One theory about the why.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:49 am

There has to be a way that intel can still come out, right?

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:53 am

malchior wrote:One theory about the why.

It's not because he has TV appearances all week, is it?

Bill O’Reilly spoke with House Intel Committee Chairman Devin Nunes tonight and got his reaction to calls from top Democrats asking he step down from his position or recuse himself from the Russia investigation.

...

Nunes declined to “disparage anyone,” but told O’Reilly, “I’m sure that the Democrats do want me to quit, because they know that I’m quite effective at getting to the bottom of things.”

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:50 am

Bottom of things? More like Trump's rectum.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:39 pm

Just out from known fake news purveyors at the Washington Post, Trump Administration sought to block Yates from testifying:

According to letters The Post reviewed, the Justice Department notified Yates earlier this month that the administration considers a great deal of her possible testimony to be barred from discussion in a congressional hearing because the topics are covered by the presidential communication privilege.

...

Yates and another witness at the planned hearing, former CIA director John Brennan, had made clear to government officials by Thursday that their testimony to the committee probably would contradict some statements that White House officials had made, according to a person familiar with the matter who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:16 pm

Nunes and White House coordinated to derail House Intel committee investigation.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:27 pm

They can't possibly derail investigations forever, and what sane person would side with Trump if they had seen something damning? It's not actually possible for a President to simply cause so much chaos that he can never be investigated correctly, is it?

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:31 pm

Paingod wrote:They can't possibly derail investigations forever, and what sane person would side with Trump if they had seen something damning? It's not actually possible for a President to simply cause so much chaos that he can never be investigated correctly, is it?

There's no mechanism to force a real investigation. If they can shut down leaks sufficiently, with no investigation to dig up dirt and no (or small) leaking, they could probably not investigate indefinitely. If they can't shut down leaks...harder to say. The only real pressure point (given the general lack of shame) is the fear of losing seats, but with the House so gerrymandered it's not clear whether that's a real danger in the House.

I've been pinning my hopes more on the Senate, although I haven't heard all that much out of the Senate on this stuff to date.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:31 pm

I know the jury is still out on Louise Mensch, but the article she just posted is rather...interesting. I'm not smart enough to put together the puzzle pieces like some people, but she paints an intriguing possible scenario.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:33 pm

Paingod wrote:They can't possibly derail investigations forever, and what sane person would side with Trump if they had seen something damning?

Another question could be, did Nunes get proof at the midnight WH meeting or otherwise that there was blow back that'll come back to him and gave him an incentive to obstruct? Either way it looks awful and the smoke grows thicker. It is pretty hard to ignore that there is a huge fire raging right now. Let's say there was nothing there, why not get to the bottom of it as quickly as possible?

Enough · Post by **Enough** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:37 pm

Smoove_B wrote:I know the jury is still out on Louise Mensch, but the article she just posted is rather...interesting. I'm not smart enough to put together the puzzle pieces like some people, but she paints an intriguing possible scenario.

Tab now closed, but I just was reading some take downs of her on twitter from various folk. Definitely reserve judgement.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:46 pm

I don't know what to make of Mensch. On one side her narrative makes sense even if uncorroborated yet. On the other hand, she is spinning several conspiracies right now. The cynic in me thinks she could just be spreading disinformation herself for some reason. But that's just another conspiracy in itself.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:48 pm

I mean, she may be right and ahead of the curve in the end, but she's not a reputable and reliable source yet. It's not like CNN / WaPo / NYT wouldn't be running with this stuff if they felt a lot of confidence in it.

So, it may be a preview of stories to come, but we're not there yet.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:42 pm

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:07 pm

Bet Nunes was up all night writing that burn.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:21 pm

Again, not that the earlier stuff Louise Mensch was writing about is stating fact, but it is interesting that a Russian Bank confirmed today that they did indeed meet with Jared Kushner last year. Earlier today:

The White House says that President Donald Trump's son-in-law was "doing his job" by reaching out to foreign officials.

Ok, well, let's look into what the bank said after the White House Press Secretary reported that information:

Vnesheconombank (v-NESH'-ay-CON'-ohm-bank) or VEB said in Monday's statement carried by state RIA Novosti news agency that it met with Kushner last year as part of 'road show' discussions with representatives of leading financial institutions in Europe, Asia and the United States. It said the meetings focused on global development banks' strategies and perspective sectors. VEB provided no further details.

I'm a little rusty, but what job was it again that Kushner had last year as part of the Trump Presidential campaign that involved reaching out to foreign bankers under sanctions?

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:28 pm

BONUS: Known fake media agents USA Today published a story about Donald Trump's ties to the Russian mafia:

New York City real estate broker Dolly Lenz told USA TODAY she sold about 65 condos in Trump World at 845 U.N. Plaza in Manhattan to Russian investors, many of whom sought personal meetings with Trump for his business expertise.

...

Dealings with Russian oligarchs concern law enforcement because many of those super-wealthy people are generally suspected of corrupt practices as a result of interconnected relationships among Russia's business elite, government security services and criminal gangs, according to former U.S. prosecutor Ken McCallion, as well as Steven Hall, a former CIA chief of Russian operations.

...

Trump has not been accused of any wrongdoing in connection to any of the individuals mentioned in this article.

However, the deals, and the large number of Russians who have bought condos in Trump buildings, raise questions about the secrecy he has maintained around his real estate empire. Trump is the first president in 40 years to refuse to turn over his tax returns, which could shed light on his business dealings.

All I know is that some day this is going to make a kick-ass movie.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:17 pm

Nunes going above and beyond to block all progress. Won't hold more meetings until Comey and Kelly return but he hasn't scheduled it. This is ridiculous and shows how dangerous this situation is. The man charged with investigating Trump is completely and obviously compromised; his party seems to be nearly silent except for *one* GOP member of the House. This is going to end badly. For who...no one knows at this point. The absurdity of this moment in time is unprecedented in our history. A kick ass movie indeed.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:30 pm

For who? Us.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:42 pm

malchior wrote:Nunes going above and beyond to block all progress. Won't hold more meetings until Comey and Kelly return but he hasn't scheduled it. This is ridiculous and shows how dangerous this situation is. The man charged with investigating Trump is completely and obviously compromised; his party seems to be nearly silent except for *one* GOP member of the House. This is going to end badly. For who...no one knows at this point. The absurdity of this moment in time is unprecedented in our history. A kick ass movie indeed.

So, at what point to military brass decide (hopefully far earlier than act on) that a current CIC is most likely an enemy of the constitution.... domestic.

I totally understand the non-political neutral chain of command culture, and fully agree with it. But what is the point at which active duty and even Vet Politicians decide that the stink from the kitchen warrants investigation before you continue to serve the clientelle.

You can't jump the gun definitely, but serving a president elected through foreign adversarial collusion seems like a direct invalidation of the armed services oath. Do you wait for an indictment, conviction. Just not talk about it and implement best practices without direct over site by the executive?

Is there any precedent?

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:43 am

Combustible Lemur wrote:So, at what point to military brass decide (hopefully far earlier than act on) that a current CIC is most likely an enemy of the constitution.... domestic.

I don't think there's any structure in the US that would allow the military to stand up and say "Enough, we're fixing this" - I can't imagine that ending well for anyone, at all.

I kind of agree with this (Keith Olbermann "Resistance" Clip) where we either have Trump being impeached by Republicans for being so damn toxic that they fear losing their own seats, complete useless disarray in the Republican-run government as they continue to bicker, or Trump remains and expands criminalization of protesting, working America into a pseudo-Russia. You'd think the military might want to stop that third one, but imagine the power they'd have in the government if it came to pass.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:53 am

Combustible Lemur wrote:
malchior wrote:Nunes going above and beyond to block all progress. Won't hold more meetings until Comey and Kelly return but he hasn't scheduled it. This is ridiculous and shows how dangerous this situation is. The man charged with investigating Trump is completely and obviously compromised; his party seems to be nearly silent except for *one* GOP member of the House. This is going to end badly. For who...no one knows at this point. The absurdity of this moment in time is unprecedented in our history. A kick ass movie indeed.
So, at what point to military brass decide (hopefully far earlier than act on) that a current CIC is most likely an enemy of the constitution.... domestic.

I totally understand the non-political neutral chain of command culture, and fully agree with it. But what is the point at which active duty and even Vet Politicians decide that the stink from the kitchen warrants investigation before you continue to serve the clientelle.

You can't jump the gun definitely, but serving a president elected through foreign adversarial collusion seems like a direct invalidation of the armed services oath. Do you wait for an indictment, conviction. Just not talk about it and implement best practices without direct over site by the executive?

Is there any precedent?

Under the Constitution, removal of a president is left to Congress through impeachment. There is no "military option".

And of course there is no other precedent, thank god. Do you really us to become more of a banana republic than we are on the way to becoming, with a military coup?

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:05 am

Grifman wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
malchior wrote:Nunes going above and beyond to block all progress. Won't hold more meetings until Comey and Kelly return but he hasn't scheduled it. This is ridiculous and shows how dangerous this situation is. The man charged with investigating Trump is completely and obviously compromised; his party seems to be nearly silent except for *one* GOP member of the House. This is going to end badly. For who...no one knows at this point. The absurdity of this moment in time is unprecedented in our history. A kick ass movie indeed.
So, at what point to military brass decide (hopefully far earlier than act on) that a current CIC is most likely an enemy of the constitution.... domestic.

I totally understand the non-political neutral chain of command culture, and fully agree with it. But what is the point at which active duty and even Vet Politicians decide that the stink from the kitchen warrants investigation before you continue to serve the clientelle.

You can't jump the gun definitely, but serving a president elected through foreign adversarial collusion seems like a direct invalidation of the armed services oath. Do you wait for an indictment, conviction. Just not talk about it and implement best practices without direct over site by the executive?

Is there any precedent?
Under the Constitution, removal of a president is left to Congress through impeachment. There is no "military option".

And of course there is no other precedent, thank god. Do you really us to become more of a banana republic than we are on the way to becoming, with a military coup?

Yeah, pretty much. I hope to hell that no one in the military is thinking along those lines. Though I do think that may be a real danger to the Republic in the longterm - we're stuck with a political system that incentivizes complete gridlock in a partisan environment, so is there a point at which it becomes so dysfunctional that a general starts to think of himself as a savior / someone who needs to step in?

But I don't think that we're anywhere near that at this point, but it's a possibility decades down the line.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:17 am

Grifman wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
malchior wrote:Nunes going above and beyond to block all progress. Won't hold more meetings until Comey and Kelly return but he hasn't scheduled it. This is ridiculous and shows how dangerous this situation is. The man charged with investigating Drumpf is completely and obviously compromised; his party seems to be nearly silent except for *one* GOP member of the House. This is going to end badly. For who...no one knows at this point. The absurdity of this moment in time is unprecedented in our history. A kick ass movie indeed.
So, at what point to military brass decide (hopefully far earlier than act on) that a current CIC is most likely an enemy of the constitution.... domestic.

I totally understand the non-political neutral chain of command culture, and fully agree with it. But what is the point at which active duty and even Vet Politicians decide that the stink from the kitchen warrants investigation before you continue to serve the clientelle.

You can't jump the gun definitely, but serving a president elected through foreign adversarial collusion seems like a direct invalidation of the armed services oath. Do you wait for an indictment, conviction. Just not talk about it and implement best practices without direct over site by the executive?

Is there any precedent?
Under the Constitution, removal of a president is left to Congress through impeachment. There is no "military option".

And of course there is no other precedent, thank god. Do you really us to become more of a banana republic than we are on the way to becoming, with a military coup?

My opinion...

Unless Don can be convicted of a crime, there is no reason for impeachment or removal of office. Bad presidents are just bad presidents and this country has suffered a few. Don is no different and we should wait for the next election to "peacefully" transfer power to a new administration and remove him from office.

I'm glad there is an investigation going into Russian influence and it may bring a few people down but the odds of convicting Don of a crime are quite small. I'm not a lawyer and don't know the law in the case but unless they can show a money trail or Don providing classified material to foreign actors he isn't going to be found guilty.

That means Don is here to stay for the next four years and we should let our government and our voices control what he does.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:30 am

I was more more curious about their passive reaction. I wouldn't want them to "act", but how do you follow an order you beleive to be given by a foreign patsy who is surrounded by foreign actors.

/derail

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:45 am

Scoop20906 wrote:I'm glad there is an investigation going into Russian influence and it may bring a few people down but the odds of convicting Don of a crime are quite small. I'm not a lawyer and don't know the law in the case but unless they can show a money trail or Don providing classified material to foreign actors he isn't going to be found guilty.

The money trails, according to different reporters, seem to terminate in "Russian-Friendly" banks like the Bank of Cyprus, Deutche Bank, and maybe VneshEconomBank. These trails are being looked into, and some of them involve Trump himself and some of his staff he's appointed to different roles or used in his campaign.

Bank of Cyprus is said to be a stellar resource for Russian money laundering. Wilbur Ross (our new Commerce Secretary) was a Vice-Chairman here and brokered deals for Putin allies, and worked closely with Trump and Dmitry Rybolovlev (Russian billionaire), who also happened to work for Bank of Cyprus. Trump made off with a cool $50m in a deal with Dmitry over a property that Trump snagged for $42m and resold 3 years later for $90m. Dmitry has since sold it for $34m.

Trump owes Deutche Bank, apparently his largest lender, $300m. They have recently been fined almost $1b for working with Russians to launder money and are under ongoing investigation. And there was an ongoing investigation being led by the New York state attorney that was swept out when Trump fired 46 standing state attorneys recently. He refused to resign and had to be specifically fired. This kind of stalled that investigation for now.

Jared Kushner recently admitted to talking with the VneshEconomBank CEO, whose bank is on a clear "No-No" list of banks US citizens are allowed to deal with. Apparently meetings are fine, but doing business with them is not. I don't know why you'd waste time meeting with someone who you wouldn't do business with.

Trump may have also done some shady business in Azerbaijan that gently fondled Iranian-supported terrorist groups indirectly by working with the agency that helps them out in this country. He even had Ivanka at the helm of this project for a while. To be fair, Trump pulled out of this and completely abandoned it two weeks before being sworn in as Captain Tinyhands McPrez.

So, money everywhere and on everyone. Big and small. It litters around Trump and his people like confetti and a lot of it looks Russian or fouled in some way. Who knows what the investigations will pan out.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:46 am

The way they are acting there is crime in there somewhere most likely. Or something politically poisonous. The trouble is that the rot is so deep in the GOP now that we can only hope some institutions hold up under the onslaught to cover it up. That the FBI is investigating is something but typically they are very methodical and slow to act. There is plenty of time to end run them. We essentially have to count on leaks and the media to stymie the tide. Not the best institution at the moment to hang hope on.

And i dont think saying we survived a Coolidge or Harding is any comfort. No President has been this unpopular or obviously corrupt this quickly. Yet the the speed they are acting to dismantle the Government without popular support is frightening. It has the appearance of covering up that crime. Worse they've signaled they are not going to acting ethically and transparently. They lie. And keep lying in the face of obvious facts. In the end this is different.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:49 am

Paingod wrote:Trump may have also done some shady business in Azerbaijan that gently fondled Iranian-supported terrorist groups indirectly by working with the agency that helps them out in this country. He even had Ivanka at the helm of this project for a while.

Now that's a close relationship.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:22 am

Combustible Lemur wrote:So, at what point to military brass decide (hopefully far earlier than act on) that a current CIC is most likely an enemy of the constitution.... domestic.

I totally understand the non-political neutral chain of command culture, and fully agree with it. But what is the point at which active duty and even Vet Politicians decide that the stink from the kitchen warrants investigation before you continue to serve the clientelle.

You can't jump the gun definitely, but serving a president elected through foreign adversarial collusion seems like a direct invalidation of the armed services oath. Do you wait for an indictment, conviction. Just not talk about it and implement best practices without direct over site by the executive?

Is there any precedent?

Precedent? Hell, we created those situations and actively assisted in several situations (notably Chile, where Allende was democratically elected, but we did not like him because he was buddies with Cuba) Spent millions and the CIA was actively involved in creating the coup (which ultimately resulted in Pinochet, and we all know how that ended)

Nazi Germany
Iran (Shah)
Egypt
Cuba
Czechoslovakia
Russia 1917
Turkey - late 90's
Portugal
Pretty much every country in Latin America...
Pretty much every country in Africa...

Or maybe your question is really: could that POSSIBLY happen in the US?
Yes, of course, IMO.

Excerpt from an old Atlantic article: basically, the military is moving farther and farther to the right, and view themselves as completely apart from civilians, and for the most part superior - ethics, morals, fitness, behavior, etc. Add to that the almost demigod status we place on the military (not to mention throwing money at the military budget), and you have ripening conditions, IMO.

>>>>
It is one matter to acknowledge that much in American society today is deserving of contempt. It is another matter to propose that the role of the U.S. military—especially an all-volunteer professional military oriented toward conservative Republicanism—is to fix those problems. Yet that is what some are doing. "It is no longer enough for Marines to 'reflect' the society they defend," Michael Wyly, a retired colonel, advised in the March, 1995, issue of the Marine Corps Gazette. "They must lead it, not politically but culturally. For it is the culture we are defending."
>>>
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ty/306158/

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:31 pm

BTW - Nunes is claiming it is all the Dems fault. Is it me or are all these guys psychopaths?

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:22 pm

I guess I missed this yesterday - Republicans rally around Nunes:

“No and no,” House Speaker Paul Ryan said Tuesday when asked whether Nunes should recuse himself and if he knew the identity of the source who provided Nunes with evidence he claims showed Trump transition aides were improperly monitored.

“I honestly think it’s much ado about nothing. I do,” said Rep. Chris Stewart (R-Utah), a member of the Intelligence panel. “We understand that what he’s done was in the best interest of the committee. I really believe that.”

Added Rep. Pete King (R-N.Y.), also a member of the panel, “He did exactly the right thing. He had an obligation to tell the president.”

Are they for f-ing real?

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:25 pm

Clinton lied about a blowjob and Democrats have been perceived as unethical philanderers for years. When Trump is finally caught and exposed, the Republicans will pay the price for more than a generation.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:40 pm

Zarathud wrote:Clinton lied about a blowjob and Democrats have been perceived as unethical philanderers for years. When Trump is finally caught and exposed, the Republicans will pay the price for more than a generation.

I sure hope so. My take is that the flip has been in the making for a while, and now that Trump has made Jesus and potentially all ethics obsolete in the party, the Dems are going to be the moral majority party of the future.
The two things that worry me....
1.Entitled millenials with the moral high ground terrify me. (You said a trigger word? Criminal prosecution. Unlikely you say? A previous century of people creating the largest incarceration state in the world over pot and other personal vice choices.)
2.And we have to make it through the current nationalist movement wave.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:50 pm

Zarathud wrote:Clinton lied about a blowjob and Democrats have been perceived as unethical philanderers for years. When Trump is finally caught and exposed, the Republicans will pay the price for more than a generation.

So we can expect Trump to make a fortune giving speeches and interjecting himself into political process for decades after he leaves office.

I guess the upside is we don't have to worry about his wife riding his coattails to take over the party and convincing them to run her for POTUS multiple times in the face of all but certain failure.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:54 pm

Here's the interesting thing - tomorrow the Senate starts with their investigation. The nugget:

Among those the committee appears to have talked to: Former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn, who resigned after he misled administration officials regarding his communications with the Russian ambassador to the United States.
"It would be safe to say we have had conversations with a lot of people, and it would be safe to say Gen Flynn is a part of that list," Burr said.

They've already spoken with Flynn. Meanwhile members of the House Intelligence Committee and Speaker Ryan are running cover for Nunes. I can only hope Flynn has provided them tremendous insight and named names. Because I'm pretty sure shit is about to get real interesting.

PLW · Post by **PLW** » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:08 pm

This is exactly the role the Senate is supposed to play. They will always be as better check on a populist than the House...that's why they have 6 year terms and, originally, why they were indirectly elected.

On my cell. Please pardon auto-corrects.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:24 am

Rip wrote:
Zarathud wrote:Clinton lied about a blowjob and Democrats have been perceived as unethical philanderers for years. When Trump is finally caught and exposed, the Republicans will pay the price for more than a generation.

So we can expect Trump to make a fortune giving speeches and interjecting himself into political process for decades after he leaves office.

I guess the upside is we don't have to worry about his wife riding his coattails to take over the party and convincing them to run her for POTUS multiple times in the face of all but certain failure.

What will you do when they catch you? What will you do when they break you? If you continue to fight, what will you become?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:18 am

Rip wrote:
Zarathud wrote:Clinton lied about a blowjob and Democrats have been perceived as unethical philanderers for years. When Trump is finally caught and exposed, the Republicans will pay the price for more than a generation.

So we can expect Trump to make a fortune giving speeches and interjecting himself into political process for decades after he leaves office.

I guess the upside is we don't have to worry about his wife riding his coattails to take over the party and convincing them to run her for POTUS multiple times in the face of all but certain failure.

I don't give a fuck what he does, as long as he is out of the WH. He can claim to rule the world for all I care. Why would ANYone freaking care if he makes peanuts, or a fortune, giving speeches after he's gone, or whether he does or does not give speeches? WTF. Please tell me that's not the source of Clinton anger, because that is some weak shit.

And I guess you're joking about Dump's wife running and taking over anything, unless he lets her. One of those nasty looks of his that are just for her will shut that down right quick.