Russia influences election

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RunningMn9
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by RunningMn9 »

I would argue that if Trump didn't invoke EP before Sessions started testifying, than Trump has made his choice. But no one asked me.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Chaz »

That's my take too. You can't decide that you can't answer questions that Trump might want to invoke EP on, or else everything is effectively privileged.

Which is exactly what Trump wants, and what he'll get unless someone decides to start actually bringing contempt charges, which they won't. Checked and balanced!
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman »

One of the most disturbing takeaways from recent hearings is how little interest the administration has in what the Russians did.

This is separate from suspicions about collusion or secret communications or anything else. The undisputed fact--supported by all of the intelligence agencies, by our allies' agencies and experience, and even by bipartisan concern in Congress--is that the Russians intervened in our election in a variety of ways, but no one in the Trump circle appears to be interested.

Comey testified under oath that Trump never asked him about the Russian espionage itself, only about the investigation into him and his people. Yesterday Jeff Sessions (who is assumed to be attending relevant meetings of the national security council) casually declared that he had never had a briefing on Russian active measures.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Paingod »

Holman wrote:One of the most disturbing takeaways from recent hearings is how little interest the administration has in what the Russians did.
I think it's all in line with their beliefs. At this time, Russia is willing to work quietly in favor of the Republicans. That's a shadow ally they don't really want to throw away carelessly. I have no doubt that Russia would only be a raging hemorrhoid for them if there was a benefit to the Democrats. I'm beginning to think that maybe there wasn't any direct collusion, but it appears that way since the Republicans were all to happy to ignore meddling in order to gain political advantage - and are in fact paying back to that relationship to encourage it, if not support it openly.

In short, vultures are tolerating hyenas that help keep away the other large predators that might want to steal the carcass that is Democracy in the US.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Remus West »

Rip wrote:Democracy truly is indestructible.
That may be the single most ignorant thing you have ever posted.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman »

Even if Russia's activity helped them in 2016, it would be SO EASY for Trump to take a stance against Russia here.

Attacking people is all Trump does, especially when he thinks it will make him look tough and leaderlike. The American people (and not just his base) would welcome it. It's literally the best thing he could do in this situation.

Instead they're lying and stonewalling and ignoring the attack and making enemies of the military and the intelligence community, all while working to eliminate sanctions on Russia and weaken the Western alliance.

It's not like Russia is rich. It's not like ditching NATO for Moscow is some kind of winning proposition economically or diplomatically. Europe, North America, and China, not Russia, are where all our trade happens. We don't even need Russian oil.

So what the fuck gives?
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by YellowKing »

The fact that they simply don't care about one of the greatest assaults on American democracy in history gives me all the proof I need of a collusion conspiracy.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Paingod »

Holman wrote:It's not like Russia is rich. ... So what the fuck gives?
Russia may not be rich, but that's not who Trump deals with. Trump deals with Russian individuals who are extremely rich, and "rich" is his ambrosia. Not too many years ago, he made $60m off a real estate deal with a Russian billionaire. Trump bought a property for $40m, sat on it for two or three years, and then resold it for $100m.

That's just one deal that we know about. There are also questionable banking ties and other things that haven't been fully explored yet. These were some of the investigations being worked on by the NY AG that Trump had to go out of his way to fire when he asked all of them to resign and this one didn't.

I don't think Trump's motivation is political. I think it's purely ego-driven and financial, which are the only things he's ever cared about in his entire life as far as I can tell. In my mind, Trump's bid for President came about for two reasons: Trump absolutely needs attention and lots of it - and when he's running things he can change policies that were out of reach before to put more money back in his own pockets. F##k everything else. I think he's pretty thoroughly proven that he doesn't give a damn about politics.

As for the people around him, they're a mix of political and financial. Some of his campaign people and staff also have big money ties to Russia. Some of them want the power of their positions. All are willing to put up with Trump to get what they want.

The rest of the Republicans are in it for the politics. They're the vultures tolerating the hyenas.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by RunningMn9 »

Holman wrote:So what the fuck gives?
In Trump's mind (I think), treating the Russian electioneering seriously, legitimizes the claim that his Presidency is tainted. Can you think of anything else that would cause Trump as much internal pain as the idea that he might not have pulled off the greatest Electoral College win in our nation's history?
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Remus West »

Could Trump be impeached for failing to fulfill his oath to defend the nation by choosing to ignore the attacks on the election? That might be the best thing ever.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by malchior »

YellowKing wrote:The fact that they simply don't care about one of the greatest assaults on American democracy in history gives me all the proof I need of a collusion conspiracy.
+1. This is the problem - their indifference to an existing and continuing threat to our way of life is insanity. They have been coy enough to not say it outright but this is another dimension of the scandal. The best case is that Trump feels that acknowledging it undermines his YUGE win and it makes him feel sad. And his stooges are just that craven. The worst case is that they were part of a conspiracy. The truth is probably more towards the former with some players perhaps getting too far to the latter via entanglement. Especially Flynn. In any of these cases - the man probably should be bounced out the door for pure dereliction of duty.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by hitbyambulance »

malchior wrote:
YellowKing wrote:The fact that they simply don't care about one of the greatest assaults on American democracy in history gives me all the proof I need of a collusion conspiracy.
+1. This is the problem - their indifference to an existing and continuing threat to our way of life is insanity. They have been coy enough to not say it outright but this is another dimension of the scandal. The best case is that Trump feels that acknowledging it undermines his YUGE win and it makes him feel sad. And his stooges are just that craven. The worst case is that they were part of a conspiracy. The truth is probably more towards the former with some players perhaps getting too far to the latter via entanglement. Especially Flynn. In any of these cases - the man probably should be bounced out the door for pure dereliction of duty.
this is the part i'd like to highlight for people who seem to think it's all about 'sore feelings that Hillary lost'. they can't seem to comprehend, or are being highly disingenuous about this.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman »

hitbyambulance wrote:
malchior wrote:
YellowKing wrote:The fact that they simply don't care about one of the greatest assaults on American democracy in history gives me all the proof I need of a collusion conspiracy.
+1. This is the problem - their indifference to an existing and continuing threat to our way of life is insanity. They have been coy enough to not say it outright but this is another dimension of the scandal. The best case is that Trump feels that acknowledging it undermines his YUGE win and it makes him feel sad. And his stooges are just that craven. The worst case is that they were part of a conspiracy. The truth is probably more towards the former with some players perhaps getting too far to the latter via entanglement. Especially Flynn. In any of these cases - the man probably should be bounced out the door for pure dereliction of duty.
this is the part i'd like to highlight for people who seem to think it's all about 'sore feelings that Hillary lost'. they can't seem to comprehend, or are being highly disingenuous about this.
This, especially because the Russians didn't help Trump because they support Trump's vision for America. It was about undermining our citizens' trust in our elections. It was about undermining liberal democracy itself.

At home, Putin doesn't pretend that Russia is an open democracy equivalent to the Western ideal. He argues (as the Soviets did) that a unified, autocratic state is better for strength and security, and he insinuates that Western democracy is a corrupt sham in which votes and popular will means nothing. He's not Trump's ally; Trump is just the most useful example of the West's failure that they've ever been able to point to.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Max Peck »

Putin may not be Trump's ally, but that doesn't mean that Trump isn't Putin's tool.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Smoove_B »

Holman wrote:This, especially because the Russians didn't help Trump because they support Trump's vision for America. It was about undermining our citizens' trust in our elections. It was about undermining liberal democracy itself.
Yup -- and it's probably working:
As Georgia prepares for a special runoff election this month in one of the country’s most closely watched congressional races, and as new reports emerge about Russian attempts to breach American election systems, serious questions are being raised about the state’s ability to safeguard the vote. Lamb’s discovery, which he shared out of concern that state officials and the center ignored or brushed off serious problems highlighted by his breach, is at the heart of voting activists’ fears that there’s no way to be sure the upcoming race—which pits Democratic neophyte Jon Ossoff against Republican former Secretary of State Karen Handel—will be secure. The special election has already become the most expensive House race in U.S. history and has drawn the attention of President Donald Trump, who has tweeted his support of Handel and ridiculed Ossoff, whose campaign is seen as a litmus test for the Trump resistance movement.
It doesn't matter whether or not it is or it's even possible. The suggestion is enough.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman »

So now we're at the point where Oliver Stone is massaging Putin's image and Fox News ideologue Tucker Carlson is massaging Oliver Stone while Sean Hannity invites Julian Assange to host his radio show.

What reality is this?
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Pyperkub »

hitbyambulance wrote:
malchior wrote:
YellowKing wrote:The fact that they simply don't care about one of the greatest assaults on American democracy in history gives me all the proof I need of a collusion conspiracy.
+1. This is the problem - their indifference to an existing and continuing threat to our way of life is insanity. They have been coy enough to not say it outright but this is another dimension of the scandal. The best case is that Trump feels that acknowledging it undermines his YUGE win and it makes him feel sad. And his stooges are just that craven. The worst case is that they were part of a conspiracy. The truth is probably more towards the former with some players perhaps getting too far to the latter via entanglement. Especially Flynn. In any of these cases - the man probably should be bounced out the door for pure dereliction of duty.
this is the part i'd like to highlight for people who seem to think it's all about 'sore feelings that Hillary lost'. they can't seem to comprehend, or are being highly disingenuous about this.
It's not even that they don't care, they are actively trying to cover it up and divert attention from it. See Devin Nunes.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman »

I suppose this goes here.

Leaked footage of Megyn Kelly's Putin interview shows how she dropped the ball.
As Megyn Kelly and NBC News face a firestorm over her interview with InfoWars’ Alex Jones, unedited footage from her recent interview with Russian President Vladimir Putin shows a nervous Kelly who asked the authoritarian leader softball questions and failed to hold him accountable on key topics. Most troubling, Kelly devoted precious time in her short interview to a question that led one former CIA Russia analyst to say that it sounded as if Putin had written the question himself.

In the full, unedited discussion, obtained by HuffPost, Kelly repeatedly fails to interrupt the Russian president while he rambles in his responses. She also asks Putin questions he can easily dispute.

The last question Kelly asked Putin, which was not aired, was startling in its pandering. “We have been here in St. Petersburg for about a week now. And virtually every person we have met on the street says what they respect about you is they feel that you have returned dignity to Russia, that you’ve returned Russia to a place of respect. You’ve been in the leadership of this country for 17 years now. Has it taken any sort of personal toll on you?”
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Re: Russia influences election

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A house divided against itself cannot stand. The Russians understood this and exploited it brilliantly. The sad thing is, nobody's learned. Instead of Russian interference uniting both parties against a common enemy, the GOP went into full "head in the sand" mode.

To paraphrase another common quote: "This is the way America ends. Not with a bang, but a whimper."
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Re: Russia influences election

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YellowKing wrote:A house divided against itself cannot stand. The Russians understood this and exploited it brilliantly. The sad thing is, nobody's learned. Instead of Russian interference uniting both parties against a common enemy, the GOP went into full "head in the sand" mode.

To paraphrase another common quote: "This is the way America ends. Not with a bang, but a whimper."

Perhaps if one party wasn't using the interference to make the other party appear to be the common enemy. The left was perfectly happy to bury any interference until they unexpectedly lost. Now that is all they want to talk about and even then only if it serves them.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman »

Your false equivalence schtick doesn't work with this.

When are you going to admit that this was an attack on the U.S., not on the Democrats? Putin didn't do this to support Republican policies or ensure Republican ascendancy. It was to undermine our whole system and support his constant insinuation that liberal democracy is a sham.
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Re: Russia influences election

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Holman wrote:Your false equivalence schtick doesn't work with this.

When are you going to admit that this was an attack on the U.S., not on the Democrats? Putin didn't do this to support Republican policies or ensure Republican ascendancy. It was to undermine our whole system and support his constant insinuation that liberal democracy is a sham.
It only supports that insinuation when you ignore the fact it had very little effect on the election and try to proclaim that Trump is somehow illegitimate. It is Democrats whose actions are furthering the Putin agenda. Nice work.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Isgrimnur »

Nice to know you've got the proof so we don't need to actually investigate what happened. If only you'd been so sure about Benghazi.
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Re: Russia influences election

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Isgrimnur wrote:Nice to know you've got the proof so we don't need to actually investigate what happened. If only you'd been so sure about Benghazi.
You have the burden of proof on the wrong foot.
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Re: Russia influences election

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I'm shocked that Rip doesn't understand how burden of proof works. SHOCKED!
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Re: Russia influences election

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Rip wrote:
Holman wrote:Your false equivalence schtick doesn't work with this.

When are you going to admit that this was an attack on the U.S., not on the Democrats? Putin didn't do this to support Republican policies or ensure Republican ascendancy. It was to undermine our whole system and support his constant insinuation that liberal democracy is a sham.
It only supports that insinuation when you ignore the fact it had very little effect on the election and try to proclaim that Trump is somehow illegitimate. It is Democrats whose actions are furthering the Putin agenda. Nice work.
So your position is that condemning the attack is wrong because it accomplishes the goal of the attack.

You'll need to rethink this.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Zarathud »

How was "the left" burying evidence of interference by the Russians? Putin found an opportunity to subvert the GOP, and turn it towards his uses.

That is not the fault of the Democrats.

It is the fault of Trump, Pence, McConnell, Ryan and EVERY LAST Republican who has not only looked the other way, but defended this outrage.
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Re: Russia influences election

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Holman wrote:
Rip wrote:
Holman wrote:Your false equivalence schtick doesn't work with this.

When are you going to admit that this was an attack on the U.S., not on the Democrats? Putin didn't do this to support Republican policies or ensure Republican ascendancy. It was to undermine our whole system and support his constant insinuation that liberal democracy is a sham.
It only supports that insinuation when you ignore the fact it had very little effect on the election and try to proclaim that Trump is somehow illegitimate. It is Democrats whose actions are furthering the Putin agenda. Nice work.
So your position is that condemning the attack is wrong because it accomplishes the goal of the attack.

You'll need to rethink this.
No trying to use the attack to damage the Republicans is wrong. Attack Russia all you want, I've been doing it for years back before Democrats were handing out reset buttons.
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Re: Russia influences election

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YellowKing wrote:A house divided against itself cannot stand. The Russians understood this and exploited it brilliantly. The sad thing is, nobody's learned. Instead of Russian interference uniting both parties against a common enemy, the GOP went into full "head in the sand" mode.

To paraphrase another common quote: "This is the way America ends. Not with a bang, but a whimper."
How then shall we perform it?--At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it?-- Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never!--All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Buonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years.

At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman »

Rip wrote:No trying to use the attack to damage the Republicans is wrong. Attack Russia all you want, I've been doing it for years back before Democrats were handing out reset buttons.
I respect the Republicans who take the attack seriously. I despise the ones ignoring it and adding to the fog by pretending it didn't happen. Trump and his enablers are doing Putin's work; the rest are fighting it.

It's really past time to quit your harping on the "Reset Button." That was at least an attempt at diplomatic engagement with a purpose and conditions, and it went along with a strengthening of NATO and Europe. Trump rolled in intending to drop the sanctions from day one, and he has done everything he can to weaken our alliance.

You're a Trump supporter. Why is he doing that?
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Re: Russia influences election

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He isn't going to, he was just fishing for a deal with them.

We are playing hardball more with every Russian ally down the line.

He is a lot stronger against Syria and Iran.
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Re: Russia influences election

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Rip wrote:He isn't going to, he was just fishing for a deal with them.

We are playing hardball more with every Russian ally down the line.

He is a lot stronger against Syria and Iran.
Good Lord. That's nonsense.

How is reducing sanctions "fishing for a deal"?
How is gutting the State Department "fishing for a deal"?
How is weakening NATO and alienating our allies and crippling U.S. global leadership "fishing for a deal"?

Oh, wait. Do you mean Trump and Kushner properties? THOSE deals?

Or do you mean the real world where Trump's feckless Putin admiration is costing us what we used to stand for?
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Pyperkub »

Rip wrote:
YellowKing wrote:A house divided against itself cannot stand. The Russians understood this and exploited it brilliantly. The sad thing is, nobody's learned. Instead of Russian interference uniting both parties against a common enemy, the GOP went into full "head in the sand" mode.

To paraphrase another common quote: "This is the way America ends. Not with a bang, but a whimper."

Perhaps if one party wasn't using the interference to make the other party appear to be the common enemy. The left was perfectly happy to bury any interference until they unexpectedly lost. Now that is all they want to talk about and even then only if it serves them.
Rip, as soon as the hacking attempts became public if Hillary had won you'd be linking every single voter fraud article out there and screaming how the election was stolen.

It was a win - win for the Russians.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Rip »

Pyperkub wrote:
Rip wrote:
YellowKing wrote:A house divided against itself cannot stand. The Russians understood this and exploited it brilliantly. The sad thing is, nobody's learned. Instead of Russian interference uniting both parties against a common enemy, the GOP went into full "head in the sand" mode.

To paraphrase another common quote: "This is the way America ends. Not with a bang, but a whimper."

Perhaps if one party wasn't using the interference to make the other party appear to be the common enemy. The left was perfectly happy to bury any interference until they unexpectedly lost. Now that is all they want to talk about and even then only if it serves them.
Rip, as soon as the hacking attempts became public if Hillary had won you'd be linking every single voter fraud article out there and screaming how the election was stolen.

It was a win - win for the Russians.
and there would be no Russia investigation.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman »

Rip wrote:
and there would be no Russia investigation.
So you're going with "Deep State conspiracy," then?
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Russia influences election

Post by Zarathud »

The Democrats immediately BEGAN the Russia investigation AND imposed sanctions. Hillary was not Putin's friend. Trump tried to end the investigation and undo the sanctions.

Your partisanship blinds you to basic facts, Rip.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Paingod »

Rip wrote:
Pyperkub wrote:It was a win - win for the Russians.
... and there would be no Russia investigation.
There would be, but it would have concluded by now with strong sanctions in place against Russia and the rest of the free world standing by our side, not scattering in a dozen different directions to avoid being stomped by Trumpzilla.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Rip »

Zarathud wrote:The Democrats immediately BEGAN the Russia investigation AND imposed sanctions. Hillary was not Putin's friend. Trump tried to end the investigation and undo the sanctions.

Your partisanship blinds you to basic facts, Rip.
You mean immediately AFTER the election. Up until the election it was all about the Russian effort to discredit Hillary's win. Then when she lost it when from being impossible to effect the election to Putin handed Trump the election.

Check out this from before the election.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-e ... SKCN12L011
The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said however, that the U.S. election system is so large, diffuse and antiquated that hackers would not be able to change the outcome of the Nov. 8 election.

But hackers could post documents, some of which might be falsified, that are designed to create public perceptions of widespread voter fraud, the officials said.
It took them all of two weeks to flip the narrative upside down. The only impetus for that change was who won.
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Blackhawk
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Blackhawk »

Very few people seriously suggest that they significantly changed the result.

It is the fact that they a foreign government hostile to our interest successfully tampered on a massive scale that is the problem. That those who benefited most from it are hand-waving it as unimportant is disturbing.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
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pr0ner
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by pr0ner »

Blackhawk wrote:Very few people seriously suggest that they significantly changed the result.

It is the fact that they a foreign government hostile to our interest successfully tampered on a massive scale that is the problem. That those who benefited most from it are hand-waving it as unimportant is disturbing.
I was going to post exactly this.

However, your reasoned response clashes with Rip's narrative, so I'm sure it won't matter.
Hodor.
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