Russia influences election

[Isgrimnur]

So much for American exceptionalism.

[malchior]

The world is filled with people with motive. Based on motive the USA has been interfering in elections around the world for over 200 years.

I suppose Trump could be the sum total of 200 years of bad karma.

[Isgrimnur]

Vox

In a fiery Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on foreign cyber threats to the United States, the country’s top spies — along with several senators from both parties — lambasted what Director of National Intelligence James Clapper described as Trump’s "disparagement" of the intelligence community.

“Mr President-elect: When you listen to these people, they’re the best among us and they’re trying to protect us,” declared Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham.

Clapper and others at the hearing also warned of the potential damage Trump’s comments could do to the nation’s ability to work with other nations to confront security threats like ISIS and the continued threat of radical Islamist terror.
...
In response to a question from Democratic Sen. Martin Heinrich about how the president-elect’s “dismissive attitude towards the intelligence community” was impacting morale in the intelligence agencies, Clapper tersely stated, “I haven’t done a climate survey, but I hardly think it helps it.”

Admiral Mike Rogers, commander of the US Cyber Command and director of the National Security Agency, went further, expressing his concern that damage to the morale of the intelligence community’s professional workforce could potentially lead to the departures of key personnel.
...
Although Rogers himself didn’t mention Trump by name, his comment was striking because he has been rumored to be under consideration to replace Clapper and become the incoming Trump administration’s top spy.

[Max Peck]

Admiral Mike Rogers, commander of the US Cyber Command and director of the National Security Agency, went further, expressing his concern that damage to the morale of the intelligence community’s professional workforce could potentially lead to the departures of key personnel.

[malchior]

Although Rogers himself didn’t mention Trump by name, his comment was striking because he has been rumored to be under consideration to replace Clapper and become the incoming Trump administration’s top spy.

It is almost like he might have some integrity! Banish him!

[Isgrimnur]

NYT

A half-hour before he was to meet with the nation’s top intelligence leaders to hear their evidence that Russia interfered with the election, Mr. Trump demanded a congressional investigation of leaks from the intelligence report.

The post was a reference to an NBC News report that United States intelligence agencies heard senior Russian government officials cheering Mr. Trump’s victory on election night. It was actually first reported by The Washington Post.

[Jeff V]

Of course, by "top secret" he really means "shit that really happened but makes me look bad." Russia influencing election in his favor? No need for congressional investigation.

[malchior]

Updated report from the office of the DNI. Also the Chief Idiot came out of the meeting and conceded that the Russians might have been involved. Lol. Good thing you were tweeting up a storm trashing those agencies before you knew any facts. Fucking moron.

Random observations

In an effort to highlight the alleged "lack of democracy" in the United States, RT broadcast, hosted, and advertised third party candidate debates and ran reporting supportive of the political agenda of these candidates. The RT hosts asserted that the US two-party system does not represent the views of at least one-third of the population and is a "sham."

This sounds like a plausible statement actually.

RT aired a documentary about the Occupy Wall Street movement on 1, 2, and 4 November. RT framed the movement as a fight against "the ruling class" and described the current US political system as corrupt and dominated by corporations. RT advertising for the documentary featured Occupy movement calls to "take back" the government. The documentary claimed that the US system cannot be changed democratically, but only through "revolution." After the 6 November US presidential election, RT aired a documentary called "Cultures of Protest," about active and often violent political resistance (RT, 1-10 November).

While I don't advocate violent overthrow - they aren't wrong that the Government is corrupt, has anti-democratic tendencies (gerrymandering/electoral college/Congressional obstruction), and is dominated by corporations. The actions of the GOP over the last few days are an example of this tendency.

[Rip]

[Max Peck]

I am shocked -- Shocked! -- that an unclassified report cites unclassified open-source information.

But not that Rip is staying up all night finding reasons to root for Russia. Stay strong, товарищ, your long national nightmare is almost over.

[Rip]

Nope slept like a baby, albeit a cold baby.

I don't care for Russia at all, which is why making accusations based on weak evidence disturbs me. I don't need an intel report to tell me the Russians were happy Clinton lost and that RT is a mouthpiece for them. Nothing in the report furthered the case that Russia was behind the hacks nor that they handed the info to WikiLeaks.

Nothing is gained by making big claims and then disclosing that you don't really have any evidence to support your assertions.

The only interesting thing in the report was finally getting verification that the hacked documents weren't altered despite numerous people here and elsewhere suggesting that Russia was altering them and that some of the things or portions thereof released were fabricated.

So in the end even if you buy into the Russians orchestrating it the only thing they did was expose us to what was really being said. Which I know horrifies a certain segment of the political class who abhor real transparency.

[Max Peck]

Nope slept like a baby, albeit a cold baby.

Yup, staying up past 0200 digging up tweets that make you feel happy, then catching 5 or 6 hours of sleep does make for a baby-like sleeping pattern.

[Rip]

Nope slept like a baby, albeit a cold baby.

Yup, staying up past 0200 digging up tweets that make you feel happy, then catching 5 or 6 hours of sleep does make for a baby-like sleeping pattern.

I don't do monophasic sleep, too inefficient.

[YellowKing]

Reagan is spinning in his grave. Where's Joe McCarthy when you need him? He might actually have some valid points these days.

[Isgrimnur]

So in the end even if you buy into the Russians orchestrating it the only thing they did was expose us to what was really being said. Which I know horrifies a certain segment of the political class who abhor real transparency.

Well, the new guys in charge are sure making transparency a focus on their untrammeled watch.

[Zarathud]

If you were expecting the good stuff to be released in the unclassified report, you're a fool.

There's enough evidence in the classified version to force Trump to reluctantly change his tune. Like 180 degrees from what he was saying on Twitter the past few days.

[hepcat]

You don't really understand how mentally unstable Trump really is, do you?

I don't care for Russia at all,

You'd better start. They're gonna be running things for the next 1 to 2 years.

[malchior]

You don't really understand how mentally unstable Trump really is, do you?

I think he doesn't care. Rah rah team et al.

[TheMix]

You don't really understand how mentally unstable Trump really is, do you?

I think he doesn't care. Rah rah team et al.

I also don't think he's capable of admitting any kind of mistake. Or change. There won't be a 180 degree turn. Instead we'll see Orwellian logic at it's best. Any perceived change will simply be due to our failure to correctly understand what he was saying.

[Kraken]

You don't really understand how mentally unstable Trump really is, do you?

I think he doesn't care. Rah rah team et al.

Confirmation bias afflicts everyone. We want to believe that our decisions are right, so we welcome evidence that supports that and discard that which doesn't. It's that much stronger when you're dealing with tribal decisions (us vs. them) rather than strictly personal ones (me vs. you).

Recognizing and correcting for one's own biases is hard to do.

Suppose Trump turns out to be an important president in a good way, by sweeping away a doomed status quo, redefining both parties, and setting the country on a positive new course. Suppose history remembers him as a transformative leader despite being a reprehensible human being. The odds of those things happening are vanishingly small, but not zero. How many of us here will be willing to admit that we were wrong about Trump? How many can even entertain the possibility?

Confirmation bias + herd mentality are hard to shake, even when one recognizes and tries to correct for them.

[Isgrimnur]

Reminds me of a conversation about religion I had several years ago with my mother. I told her that I had my beliefs, which are different from hers, but that I would be the first one to tell you that my beliefs are wrong. She couldn't wrap her head around that.

My response was that, with 6 billion people on the planet, plus all those that came before, that somehow, I was the one that had it right was the height of egocentrism.

[hepcat]

The odds of those things happening are vanishingly small, but not zero.

How many of us here will be willing to admit that we were wrong about Trump? How many can even entertain the possibility?

Your introductory caveat puts you with the rest of us, I would say.

[dbt1949]

My stepson follows every word from Trump like it was from JC himself. Online he hangs around with right wing militia groups and preppers so the only info he ever gets is from that side of politics.
Trying to say anything derogatory about Trump is fightin' words.
I don't consider myself exactly liberal but I do have a passion against Trump. Then I think of myself and my views. I mainly get them from around here and liberal news so am I any better?

[Kraken]

The odds of those things happening are vanishingly small, but not zero.

How many of us here will be willing to admit that we were wrong about Trump? How many can even entertain the possibility?

Your introductory caveat puts you with the rest of us, I would say.

Yes, I absolutely include myself. Even after trying to correct for my own confirmation bias and information bubble, I still think Trump is an unhinged charlatan. There's an infinitesimal chance that that's just what this country needs right now...but I wouldn't bet on it.

Like anyone else I hate being wrong, let alone admitting it. I was in favor of invading Iraq, for example -- not because of the imaginary WMD threat, but because I bought the neocon idea of installing a puppet government there to change an unfavorable status quo. And it might have even worked out that way if the occupation hadn't been so badly bungled. But of course it turned into one of the bigger blunders in US history. Oops, my bad.

Ten years from now am I going to admit that I was wrong about Trump? Doesn't seem likely, but it could happen.

Some people, OTOH, can never admit that they were bamboozled, least of all to themselves.

[LordMortis]

How many of us here will be willing to admit that we were wrong about Trump? How many can even entertain the possibility?

Still hoping. There's been mixed evidence. Most of it not good but not all of it.

[Kraken]

How many of us here will be willing to admit that we were wrong about Trump? How many can even entertain the possibility?

Still hoping. There's been mixed evidence. Most of it not good but not all of it.

He does keep everybody off balance and on guard. The twitter outbursts look particularly idiotic, but who knows? maybe it's a brilliant tactic for keeping the upper hand. Regardless, we still only have hints at what to expect. Most of them, as embodied in his cabinet picks, are deeply worrisome, but at least his campaign rhetoric was mostly hot air.

But you don't hope your plane will crash because you hate the pilot and you're excluded from the orgy in First Class.

[Skinypupy]

But you don't hope your plane will crash because you hate the pilot and you're excluded from the orgy in First Class.

Hey, speak for yourself pal!

[YellowKing]

Trump's positives will be side effects. Business loves him, so short-term economic pluses may pan out, even if long term he plunges us into a deficit hole my great-great-grandkids won't even be able to climb out of.

His bluster (crude that it may be), may restore some of America's power on the world stage. Not out of respect, but fear.

And he is right in that a good relationship with Russia is a positive. I was thinking more, "hang out and have a beer with" relationship rather than "Netflix and chill," but again - short-term benefits vs long-term having all of our national secrets disclosed and exploited against us.

I don't see how the negatives don't outweigh the positives though. He's basically planning on erasing the last eight years, and I don't think eroding progress - even if it's progress you don't necessarily agree with - helps anyone. And there's no way he avoids the constant blunders and falsehoods that have plagued his entire campaign to this point. When he's actually in office. those mistakes will be magnified bigly (big league?). Yuge.

[Rip]

How exactly does a good relationship with Russia result in having all of our national secrets disclosed and exploited against us?

[hepcat]

Because they know they attained those good relations by having all of our national secrets disclosed and exploited against us. If it looks like we're doing something they don't like in the future, they'll do it again. Welcome to America: Russia's new lapdog.

[RunningMn9]

And he is right in that a good relationship with Russia is a positive.

No, he's not. You can't have a "good" relationship with Putin's Russia. That's the problem.

[Holman]

And he is right in that a good relationship with Russia is a positive.

No, he's not. You can't have a "good" relationship with Putin's Russia. That's the problem.

It'll be good for some people. A certain portion of the .1% will discover that Russian oil, Russian banking practices, and Russian-style oligarchy can be a pretty sweet mix. They'll realize that these can even be imported.

Putin will offer a grand SuperFriends partnership against terrorism, and Trump will fall for it. A lot of Americans will too, and pretty seen we'll be supporting Assad and maybe some new Assad-lite regime in Iraq. We'll turn a blind eye to atrocities because the victims are Muslims, and the resulting despair and radicalization in the region will be taken as proof that The West is in Eternal War against Islam.

So that's good for the far-right parties who'll sweep Europe on this narrative. It's even good for the radical jihadists, who'll find their minority-minority vision of Islam not only validated but mandated by the West.

The only losers will be pluralism, liberal democracy, and Western values.

[Max Peck]

And he is right in that a good relationship with Russia is a positive.

You're assuming that Putin's goal is a "good relationship" with the USA.

[YellowKing]

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. A good relationship with Putin's Russia (by good I mean non-Cold War status) is a positive as long as we're playing him, and he's not playing us. That's what Clinton attempted to do with her "Russian reset" as Secretary of State. Unfortunately I don't think Trump has the smarts or experience to win that game. After all, he's not even in office yet and Putin's already got him distrusting his own intelligence agencies.

Consider that Putin was able to outwit and frustrate Obama on multiple occasions. And Obama was damn smart. Trump is going to be putty in Putin's hands.

For a party that is typically so "U-S-A rah rah patriotism," I'm pretty astonished that they're suddenly head over heels in love with our biggest rival superpower.

But whatever. I, for one, welcome our new Communist overlords.

[geezer]

And he is right in that a good relationship with Russia is a positive.

No, he's not. You can't have a "good" relationship with Putin's Russia. That's the problem.

It'll be good for some people. A certain portion of the .1% will discover that Russian oil, Russian banking practices, and Russian-style oligarchy can be a pretty sweet mix. They'll realize that these can even be imported.

Putin will offer a grand SuperFriends partnership against terrorism, and Trump will fall for it. A lot of Americans will too, and pretty seen we'll be supporting Assad and maybe some new Assad-lite regime in Iraq. We'll turn a blind eye to atrocities because the victims are Muslims, and the resulting despair and radicalization in the region will be taken as proof that The West is in Eternal War against Islam.

So that's good for the far-right parties who'll sweep Europe on this narrative. It's even good for the radical jihadists, who'll find their minority-minority vision of Islam not only validated but mandated by the West.

The only losers will be pluralism, liberal democracy, and Western values.

To be fair, that's pretty much the status quo of the world pre-GWB Iraq,except for the west vs.Islam narrative.

[Kraken]

Trump is going to be putty in Putin's hands.

It seems that way. Putin is very smart and skilled in geopolitics, and Trump is neither. But Trump is a successful con man whose behavior is entirely situational and unconstrained by the usual norms. I wonder if Putin has encountered his ilk before. They're both autocrats bent on looting their countries, so they'll share a mutual understanding on that level...but there the similarities end.

[Max Peck]

But whatever. I, for one, welcome our new Communist Kleptocrat overlords.

It's a twofer -- it covers the Putinists and the Trumpistas. (For the Trumpistas alone, KKKleptocrats is also acceptable.)

[Holman]

Yeah, forget Communism. Putin's goal is to call the shots in Eastern Europe and (to whatever degree possible) Central Asia, just like the Czars did. His plan is do it at the head of a coalition of white, European, pseudo-Christianist political regimes with a clearly identifiable and renewable enemy.

Putin has also learned what the Marxists never quite could: to rule the world, seduce the ruling class. Trump has just now joined that class, and he's soooo super excited that Putin is promising to take him to all the best parties.

[Rip]

Good thing Obama laid down the law when Russia annexed Crimea. That let them know they couldn't push the USA around without dire consequences.

[Holman]

Good thing Obama laid down the law when Russia annexed Crimea. That let them know they couldn't push the USA around without dire consequences.

100 rubles says sanctions are removed before summer and Russia owns Kiev by 2020.

I'll even take scrip.