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Russia influences election

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YellowKing
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by YellowKing » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:20 pm

Lawbeefaroni wrote:For everyone pinning their hopes on the November elections...what is plan B?
The only plan B we have is Mueller. The hope that he uncovers enough heinous criminal activity that Trump is forced to resign under public outrage (since I believe impeachment would be impossible with this Congress).

That said, I don't think we'll be so lucky.

The most realistic best-case scenario is that the Blue Wave materializes and provides some resistance (however tiny). If the Blue Wave is big enough, it may also embolden GOPers lukewarm on Trump to grow bolder in their criticism. However, all this will simply be like putting a Band-Aid on a bullet wound.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Smoove_B » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:34 pm

YellowKing wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:20 pm
Lawbeefaroni wrote:For everyone pinning their hopes on the November elections...what is plan B?
The only plan B we have is Mueller. The hope that he uncovers enough heinous criminal activity that Trump is forced to resign under public outrage (since I believe impeachment would be impossible with this Congress).
I think it's pretty clear that we're beyond Trump being the only problem. Yes, he' currently holding America in a choke hold while the GOP watches, but if he's magically no longer in charge there's been enough damage to our overall system that we're in big fucking trouble. The comparison's been made a hundred times already - Trump is just the most visible symptom of our current problem. He's not THE problem.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:16 pm

But the structural problems existed under Obama, and we still had a mostly functional government and mostly functional policies. The problem is that Trump and his GOP are willing to exploit the weaknesses. America is sick but not dead.

What's needed is another decent president and a truly massive effort at reform, something to nail down erstwhile norms as actual laws.

Maybe I'm naive, but I have hope that post-Trump/anti-Trumpian reforms could still save us.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Fireball » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:18 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:48 pm
Fireball wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:58 pm
A large canister of helium and a plastic bag.
Please no.
Just to be clear: this was not a serious reply. It was just dark humor. In truth, if Democrats don't take the House in 2018, our only hope as a nation is for a Democrat to win the presidency in 2020. If that doesn't happen, it's time to leave the United States.
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El Guapo
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by El Guapo » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:39 pm



Just a reminder of how Clinton warned us about Trump and Russia two years ago, and also how the media completely botched the coverage.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by malchior » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:52 pm

Holman wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:16 pm
But the structural problems existed under Obama, and we still had a mostly functional government and mostly functional policies. The problem is that Trump and his GOP are willing to exploit the weaknesses. America is sick but not dead.
Only because Obama had to become 'imperial'. The first thing Trump did was roll everything back. That is no way to govern. From a policy standpoint we are unstable. As to sick or dead, I'd compare it to being that we're at Stage 3 or 4 cancer for governance. Not dead but things are looking very, very dire.
What's needed is another decent president and a truly massive effort at reform, something to nail down erstwhile norms as actual laws.

Maybe I'm naive, but I have hope that post-Trump/anti-Trumpian reforms could still save us.
I'd love that outcome but there is no reason for it to happen. The 'minority' knows they are the minority. Why would they give up power? All signs indicate we're in for a long painful ride most likely or a very short ride into something else. The short path will be very bad for non-white and non-straight folks.

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Captain Caveman
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Captain Caveman » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:00 pm



:grund: :grund:

Setting up an excuse for GOP losses in the midterms.

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El Guapo
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by El Guapo » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:05 pm

Captain Caveman wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:00 pm


:grund: :grund:

Setting up an excuse for GOP losses in the midterms.
I don't think it's that, so much as his usual playbook is just to accuse the opposition of what he is accused of. Then count on generating headlines along the lines of "Trump and Democratic leaders accuse each other of being in bed with Russia", knowing that a lot of people won't read enough to know that the accusations against Trump are serious, while the accusations by Trump are not. Just to blur the lines enough that those Republican-leaning voters who want to support him can find enough reasons to do so.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Captain Caveman » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:10 pm

His pathological lies can serve multiple purposes. That's Trump's genius.

Until the lying itself has a cost, he'll keep doing it. It's worked pretty well for him so far.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Smoove_B » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:15 pm

I more or less assumed at some point I'd stop being astounded on a daily basis that this man is our President. It hasn't happened yet.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Skinypupy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:11 pm

Dems: "We should probably have the Director of National Intelligence publicly testify on the threat Russian interference has on our election process, since it's on everyone's mind right now."

GOP: "Nah, we're good"
Democrats on the House Oversight Committee on Tuesday failed in their attempt to subpoena the top U.S. intelligence official to testify publicly on the threat Russia poses to U.S. elections.

Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-Va.) offered a motion to subpoena Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats. Republicans defeated the effort in a 17-15 party-line vote that tabled the motion.

Gowdy had offered to invite Coats to testify before the committee in a classified setting, but Democrats described that offer as insufficient.

“We appreciate your agreement to hold a classified briefing with [the Office of Director of National Intelligence], but we think a briefing, albeit helpful, needs to be accompanied by a public hearing,” said Connolly, adding that a closed-door briefing would be “no substitute” for a public one.
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El Guapo
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by El Guapo » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:21 pm

I wish the GOP would pay more of a political price for this sort of obvious misconduct, but I really don't think they will. Fortunately Trump managed to inflict a pain of sort via the Helsinki summit, at least, and he's apparently planning on doing a repeat in the fall in D.C. (which I do deeply appreciate).

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:06 pm

McConnell (who of course did everything he could to prevent a bipartisan response to Russian interference in 2016) has come out with a couple of anti-Putin/anti-interference statements today.

Combined with Trump's, it smells fishy, like maybe they're trying to muddy the waters for when something happens.

The best we can hope is that it's merely a reaction to this week's polls showing that Helsinki was a disaster for the GOP.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Ralph-Wiggum » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:37 pm

Captain Caveman wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:00 pm


:grund: :grund:

Setting up an excuse for GOP losses in the midterms.
This is especially hilarious since Putin directly said in the Helsinki press conference that he was hoping Trump would beat Clinton.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by $iljanus » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:03 pm

Captain Caveman wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:00 pm


:grund: :grund:

Setting up an excuse for GOP losses in the midterms.
And the creation of another entity which will investigate this new Russian interference resulting in the disenfranchisement of of various minority groups, ummm, I mean Russian pawns.
tl;dr

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Captain Caveman » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:08 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:37 pm
Captain Caveman wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:00 pm


:grund: :grund:

Setting up an excuse for GOP losses in the midterms.
This is especially hilarious since Putin directly said in the Helsinki press conference that he was hoping Trump would beat Clinton.
Wrong! That moment has been erased from the historical record:


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Re: Russia influences election

Post by em2nought » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:14 am

:wub:
Image
Enlarge Image

#WalkAway Buttercup :wink:
Waiting for the tide to bring me a sail.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:45 am

Captain Caveman wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:08 pm
Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:37 pm
Captain Caveman wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:00 pm


:grund: :grund:

Setting up an excuse for GOP losses in the midterms.
This is especially hilarious since Putin directly said in the Helsinki press conference that he was hoping Trump would beat Clinton.
Wrong! That moment has been erased from the historical record:

times 17.3.84 bb speech malreported africa rectify

times 19.12.83 forecasts 3 yp 4th quarter 83 misprints verify current issue

times 14.2.84 miniplenty malquoted chocolate rectify

times 3.12.83 reporting bb dayorder doubleplusungood refs unpersons rewrite fullwise upsub antefiling
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:59 am

Skinypupy wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:11 pm
Dems: "We should probably have the Director of National Intelligence publicly testify on the threat Russian interference has on our election process, since it's on everyone's mind right now."

GOP: "Nah, we're good"
Democrats on the House Oversight Committee on Tuesday failed in their attempt to subpoena the top U.S. intelligence official to testify publicly on the threat Russia poses to U.S. elections.

Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-Va.) offered a motion to subpoena Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats. Republicans defeated the effort in a 17-15 party-line vote that tabled the motion.

Gowdy had offered to invite Coats to testify before the committee in a classified setting, but Democrats described that offer as insufficient.

“We appreciate your agreement to hold a classified briefing with [the Office of Director of National Intelligence], but we think a briefing, albeit helpful, needs to be accompanied by a public hearing,” said Connolly, adding that a closed-door briefing would be “no substitute” for a public one.
I don't know how they can go to work every day and put up with this. I blame all of them. If you're not engaging in fisticuffs on the House floor at this point you are complicit. "Oh, but let's just do the delicate dance of getting votes on record..." Fuck that.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Vorret » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:47 am

At this point I don't see how Democrat can win, the election will be massively tampered with and Reps will come out ahead again. This is a very sad turn of events for everyone.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by hepcat » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:06 am

em2nought wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:14 am

#WalkAway Buttercup :wink:
Image

#GOPSoldtoPutin
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by LordMortis » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:29 am

Vorret wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:47 am
At this point I don't see how Democrat can win, the election will be massively tampered with and Reps will come out ahead again. This is a very sad turn of events for everyone.
I won't say that until it happens. Then we have to sit back and see what happened. There is no sense is questioning the tools we have until there is reason to question them. Protecting them? Yes. Showing disdain for those who dismiss protecting them? Absolutely. But giving up on them before we use them or claiming they're rigged before we have data points to examine. Nope. I have larger more legitimate fears, like the fact that the guy want to governor is named Abdul El-Sayed. The guy I really don't want to be governor is Bull Schutte. I am reasonably certain the racism of my state will assure El-Sayed will lose in the general. Do I throw my hat in for any way? If he wins the primary and runs against Schutte (or heaven forbid Colbeck) in the general, bigotry will seal my state's fate and gerrymandered hostage taking will grow. I'm not fully educated on the field yet but I think I have an inherent distrust of every other candidate. Some worse than others. Do I accept that Whitmer might just be the least corrupt in a horrible field, and that she should be Schutte and she will also guarantee that Thanedar won't win the primary and make the general the worst of all possible worlds?

If Congress isn't going to stand up proactively then all I can say is "Get back to me with what the Russians did in late October...." I have more important mental cycles to expend on the election before the election.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Grifman » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:43 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:15 pm
I more or less assumed at some point I'd stop being astounded on a daily basis that this man is our President. It hasn't happened yet.
Yeah, I used to think each week we’ve hit bottom, but now I’ve given up. There is always going to be a future week that will be worse than whatever the most recent worst week.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Pyperkub » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:14 pm

All those in favor of Treason, say "Aye!"
House conservatives have filed articles of impeachment in an effort to oust Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, the overseer of Special Counsel Robert Mueller's investigation.
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Sepiche » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:22 pm

Has to get 2/3 in the senate, so it will never pass.

By all means let them give the Democrats more ammo going into the midterms.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by El Guapo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:15 pm

Sepiche wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:22 pm
Has to get 2/3 in the senate, so it will never pass.

By all means let them give the Democrats more ammo going into the midterms.
Indeed.


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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Kraken » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:36 pm

"Conservatives" doesn't mean what it used to mean. Even though we agree on nearly nothing, I actually find myself feeling sorry for genuine conservatives nowadays.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Captain Caveman » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:06 pm

It’s obviously not going to a vote but that’s not their primary objective. They just want to further impugn Rosenstein to try to discredit Mueller’s eventual findings, fire up their base a little bit, and (long shot) give Trump some pretext for canning Rosenstein. I expect some unhinged Trump tweets on the topic soon.

Mostly though it’s probably just Jordan and Meadows trying to show Trump and the base their bonafides.

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Re: Re: Russia influences election

Post by Pyperkub » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:23 am

Kraken wrote:"Conservatives" doesn't mean what it used to mean. Even though we agree on nearly nothing, I actually find myself feeling sorry for genuine conservatives nowadays.
I was reading an article a little while back arguing that many of the positions we think of as conservative (or did, until recently) were rooted in reactionary hatred of the Civil rights movement and act.

E. G. Smaller government, lower taxes, etc.

I'll see if I can dig it/them up, as it's a fascinating argument.

From that perspective, it's more that we're actually seeing conservatism without its polite veneer.
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Re: Re: Russia influences election

Post by Holman » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:57 am

Pyperkub wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:23 am
Kraken wrote:"Conservatives" doesn't mean what it used to mean. Even though we agree on nearly nothing, I actually find myself feeling sorry for genuine conservatives nowadays.
I was reading an article a little while back arguing that many of the positions we think of as conservative (or did, until recently) were rooted in reactionary hatred of the Civil rights movement and act.

E. G. Smaller government, lower taxes, etc.

I'll see if I can dig it/them up, as it's a fascinating argument.

From that perspective, it's more that we're actually seeing conservatism without its polite veneer.
Yup.

I'd say the modern American conservative movement was definitely born in reaction the Civil Rights movement. In the 20th century, "States Rights" was cover for Jim Crow and segregation all along, but it was a strictly Southern rallying cry until the 1950s.

I'm sure we all know the story of the 1960s Southern Strategy and the Dem/GOP base realignment, but another part of it was the 1970s GOP making inroads into the northern white working class through opposition to busing and etc, again sold as "smaller government."

The realignment was complete with the rise of the social-conservative Christian Right, which explicitly adapted GOP opposition to Civil Rights to the fight against the ERA and acceptance of homosexuality, etc.

Actual Edmund Burke-style conservatives probably haven't been running "conservative" politics in American since the 1940s. People like William Buckley, whom we somehow pretend were above the level of today's right-wing, were all-in on opposition to Civil Rights. The distance they kept from e.g. the John Birch Society was often more a matter of style than of substance.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by LordMortis » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:08 am

You two are saying different things. The modern conservative movement is not rooted in the conservatism of Eisenhower. It is the exact opposite of such and predates Civil Rights reactionaries. At the same time, it's a marvel (and shameful) to me that Civil Rights reactionaries have seized control conservatism and the GOP is unrecognizable as the party or Lincoln and Eisenhower.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=25838
Our great President Dwight D. Eisenhower has counseled us further: "In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. In all those things which deal with people's money, or their economy, or their form of government, be conservative."
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Defiant » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:54 pm

The Russian intelligence agency behind the 2016 election cyberattacks targeted Sen. Claire McCaskill as she began her 2018 re-election campaign in earnest, a Daily Beast forensic analysis reveals. That makes the Missouri Democrat the first identified target of the Kremlin’s 2018 election interference.
link

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by El Guapo » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:56 pm

Defiant wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:54 pm
The Russian intelligence agency behind the 2016 election cyberattacks targeted Sen. Claire McCaskill as she began her 2018 re-election campaign in earnest, a Daily Beast forensic analysis reveals. That makes the Missouri Democrat the first identified target of the Kremlin’s 2018 election interference.
link
The other thing is, if I'm reading the story right, it would have worked but for Microsoft taking over and re-routing traffic towards the Russian fake domain (pursuant to court order).

Also it's not clear that McCaskill was the only one targeted - I would assume not, and I'm not sure that they all failed.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Sepiche » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:15 am

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/26/politics ... index.html
"Michael Cohen, President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, claims that then-candidate Trump knew in advance about the June 2016 meeting in Trump Tower in which Russians were expected to offer his campaign dirt on Hillary Clinton, sources with knowledge tell CNN. Cohen is willing to make that assertion to special counsel Robert Mueller, the sources said."

Holy crap.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by hepcat » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:19 am

Honestly, at this point, it’s just too late. The insular world of the Trump supporter won’t be damaged in the least by this news. If Mueller does end the investigation and Trump is charged with something, he’ll never be punished for it. He’s become the Teflon Don.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by ImLawBoy » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:39 am

Sepiche wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:15 am
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/26/politics ... index.html
"Michael Cohen, President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, claims that then-candidate Trump knew in advance about the June 2016 meeting in Trump Tower in which Russians were expected to offer his campaign dirt on Hillary Clinton, sources with knowledge tell CNN. Cohen is willing to make that assertion to special counsel Robert Mueller, the sources said."

Holy crap.
He's willing to make that assertion, but he apparently doesn't have that one recorded - it's just his word on it. Not as devastating as it might seem at first blush.
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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Rip » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:41 am

ImLawBoy wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:39 am
Sepiche wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:15 am
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/26/politics ... index.html
"Michael Cohen, President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, claims that then-candidate Trump knew in advance about the June 2016 meeting in Trump Tower in which Russians were expected to offer his campaign dirt on Hillary Clinton, sources with knowledge tell CNN. Cohen is willing to make that assertion to special counsel Robert Mueller, the sources said."

Holy crap.
He's willing to make that assertion, but he apparently doesn't have that one recorded - it's just his word on it. Not as devastating as it might seem at first blush.
Especially when you consider the number of bold face lies he has been caught in.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Unagi » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:47 am

Rip wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:41 am
ImLawBoy wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:39 am
Sepiche wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:15 am
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/26/politics ... index.html
"Michael Cohen, President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, claims that then-candidate Trump knew in advance about the June 2016 meeting in Trump Tower in which Russians were expected to offer his campaign dirt on Hillary Clinton, sources with knowledge tell CNN. Cohen is willing to make that assertion to special counsel Robert Mueller, the sources said."

Holy crap.
He's willing to make that assertion, but he apparently doesn't have that one recorded - it's just his word on it. Not as devastating as it might seem at first blush.
Especially when you consider the number of bold face lies he has been caught in.
Speaking of Trump here , or who?

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by Rip » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:57 am

Unagi wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:47 am
Rip wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:41 am
ImLawBoy wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:39 am
Sepiche wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:15 am
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/26/politics ... index.html
"Michael Cohen, President Donald Trump's former personal attorney, claims that then-candidate Trump knew in advance about the June 2016 meeting in Trump Tower in which Russians were expected to offer his campaign dirt on Hillary Clinton, sources with knowledge tell CNN. Cohen is willing to make that assertion to special counsel Robert Mueller, the sources said."

Holy crap.
He's willing to make that assertion, but he apparently doesn't have that one recorded - it's just his word on it. Not as devastating as it might seem at first blush.
Especially when you consider the number of bold face lies he has been caught in.
Speaking of Trump here , or who?
Cohen. Heck he told Chris Cuomo he wasn't recording their conversation right before he did record their conversation.

https://nypost.com/2018/07/25/cohen-sec ... nn-anchor/
The conversation took place after the Journal in January revealed that Cohen had arranged the payment to Daniels.

The paper reported that Cohen told Cuomo he wasn’t running a tape — before recording their entire conversation.

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Re: Russia influences election

Post by em2nought » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:02 pm

hepcat wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:19 am
Honestly, at this point, it’s just too late. The insular world of the Trump supporter won’t be damaged in the least by this news. If Mueller does end the investigation and Trump is charged with something, he’ll never be punished for it. He’s become the Teflon Don.
It's nice to have someone who's Teflon on the "right" side for a change. They've had plenty of Teflon folks on the other side for years. :doh:

The fake news crying wolf ALL the time have turned us into Teflon voters on our side as well. :wink: It's like someone handed us cash.
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Waiting for the tide to bring me a sail.

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