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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by tjg_marantz »

Holman wrote:James O'Keefe and his "Project Veritas" sent someone to the Washington Post to sell them a false story about Roy Moore.

O'Keefe's teasing tweet suggests that he thought he had stung them:
Instead, WaPo was way ahead of him, posting this story:
A woman who falsely claimed to The Washington Post that Roy Moore, the Republican U.S. Senate candidate in Alabama, impregnated her as a teenager appears to work with an organization that uses deceptive tactics to secretly record conversations in an effort to embarrass its targets.

In a series of interviews over two weeks, the woman shared a dramatic story about an alleged sexual relationship with Moore in 1992 that led to an abortion when she was 15. During the interviews, she repeatedly pressed Post reporters to give their opinions on the effects that her claims could have on Moore’s candidacy if she went public.

The Post did not publish an article based on her unsubstantiated account. When Post reporters confronted her with inconsistencies in her story and an Internet posting that raised doubts about her motivations, she insisted that she was not working with any organization that targets journalists.

But on Monday morning, Post reporters saw her walking into the New York offices of Project Veritas, an organization that targets the mainstream news media and left-leaning groups. The organization sets up undercover “stings” that involve using false cover stories and covert video recordings meant to expose what the group says is media bias.
The ugly thing here is that O'Keefe isn't merely trying to sting the Post; his job here is to sow distrust of the women who have come forward on their own to accuse Roy Moore.

EDIT: already mentioned in the Political Randomness thread with the rest of the Moore discussion.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Fitzy »

It sounds like the post never remotely gave anything damning to the mole. How much editing was Veritas going to do to make it look bad?
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

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This is just the best. Click to embiggen.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by hepcat »

Fitzy wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:34 pm It sounds like the post never remotely gave anything damning to the mole. How much editing was Veritas going to do to make it look bad?
O'Keefe (god, I wish his first name was Miles) will distort with editing to degrees that would surprise you.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Holman »

O'Keefe is claiming "BIAS BIAS BIAS!!" because they got a quote from a WaPo employee admitting that the editorial staff is of course opposed to Trump.

This is a scandal only if you don't understand that traditional journalistic separation between reporters and the opinion page (which might actually be the case if you've been getting only Fox News for a decade or two).

Something interesting that's been noticed: the day after Project Veritas began its attempted sting, Roy Moore mentioned in a speech that "investigations" were happening and that the WaPo's bias would soon be revealed.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

O'Keefe very well likely understands the separation between news and editorial but you can be assured his audience doesn't or simply doesn't care. They are idiots after all.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Remus West »

malchior wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:12 pm O'Keefe very well likely understands the separation between news and editorial but you can be assured his audience doesn't or simply doesn't care. He is likely also aware of and planning on exploiting this . They are idiots after all.
FTFY
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

Remus West wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:22 pm
malchior wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:12 pm O'Keefe very well likely understands the separation between news and editorial but you can be assured his audience doesn't or simply doesn't care. He is likely also aware of and planning on exploiting this . They are idiots after all.
FTFY
Haha - yeah - I was implying that but maybe too weakly.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Moliere »

It's always interesting switching back and forth between CNN and FOX. The former was talking only about Tillerson and the latter was talking only about Kate Steinle.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »



The NY Times is gaslighting their audience for calling them out on their terrible piece on Hovater.
They are totally arrogant and tone deaf. The NY Times editorial board is a total mess.

The damn story literally linked at first online to a site where you could buy Nazi gear. They pulled it out but somehow people should be sorry that pissed them off apparently. Cancelling my subscription still feels like the right move.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by msteelers »

malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:44 am

The NY Times is gaslighting their audience for calling them out on their terrible piece on Hovater.
They are totally arrogant and tone deaf. The NY Times editorial board is a total mess.

The damn story literally linked at first online to a site where you could buy Nazi gear. They pulled it out but somehow people should be sorry that pissed them off apparently. Cancelling my subscription still feels like the right move.
I'm sorry, I just feel like this is a huge overreaction. It's important for people to realize that the neo-Nazi's that are marching around the country now aren't the mustache-twirlers of yesteryear. Their our neighbors, co-workers, cousins, sons, and fathers.

I haven't read the entire article, but I don't see it normalizing nazi's at all. I see it shining a light on the fact that these guys are not how we picture them, and that's a shocking realization. It's shocking and painful, but completely necessary.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Remus West »

msteelers wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:05 am
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:44 am

The NY Times is gaslighting their audience for calling them out on their terrible piece on Hovater.
They are totally arrogant and tone deaf. The NY Times editorial board is a total mess.

The damn story literally linked at first online to a site where you could buy Nazi gear. They pulled it out but somehow people should be sorry that pissed them off apparently. Cancelling my subscription still feels like the right move.
I'm sorry, I just feel like this is a huge overreaction. It's important for people to realize that the neo-Nazi's that are marching around the country now aren't the mustache-twirlers of yesteryear. Their our neighbors, co-workers, cousins, sons, and fathers.

I haven't read the entire article, but I don't see it normalizing nazi's at all. I see it shining a light on the fact that these guys are not how we picture them, and that's a shocking realization. It's shocking and painful, but completely necessary.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by hepcat »

Yup, my thoughts too. Demonizing any attempt to find out why something so awful is becoming so popular only serves to hold us back from a solution.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

I don't mind shining a light on it. I minded that they linked right to a website peddling Nazi gear. I mind that they talked about his views in a even fashion. These are *NAZIS*. Expose them for the vile pieces of shit they are but personally I'd appreciate that they don't waste space talking about how they love Applebees.

I get what they tried to do. I just think their execution however was horrible. There were two issues here IMO -- they didn't shine any light on how he got from everyday normal guy to white nationalist foot soldier. It was almost purely bio about his current state. Second this is a double-edged sword because you potentially elevate their beliefs when you consider them this way. Many saw them fall on the wrong side of that balance. To top it off the NY Times has made many other missteps so it seems that people--including myself--finally had enough with their equivocation.
I haven't read the entire article, but I don't see it normalizing nazi's at all. I see it shining a light on the fact that these guys are not how we picture them, and that's a shocking realization. It's shocking and painful, but completely necessary.
How could you have an informed opinion about this then? I don't understand how someone doesn't know what people are talking about and then calls it an overreaction.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by msteelers »

I finished the article, and I think it is a depressingly accurate portrayal of how these people think.
He is adamant that the races are probably better off separated, but he insists he is not racist. He is a white nationalist, he says, not a white supremacist. There were mixed-race couples at the wedding. Mr. Hovater said he was fine with it.
I have conversations with guys like this all the damn time. They don't see themselves as racist at all. It's scary how many people I know in my life that I can see heading down the path to becoming this guy.
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:06 am I don't mind shining a light on it. I minded that they linked right to a website peddling Nazi gear.
I read the article after the link was removed. Did they link right to the product page where you can buy the Nazi stuff, or did they link to the home page? They have links to several other horrible websites in the article, as they should. I don't understand why linking to the Traditionalist Worker Party is this horrible thing.
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:06 amI mind that they talked about his views in a even fashion. These are *NAZIS*. Expose them for the vile pieces of shit but personally I'd appreciate that they don't waste space talking about how they love Applebees.
That's the point of the article! Portraying him in regular everyday settings shatters the mustache-twirling image stuck in people's heads. And I don't need a news article to take an offended tone when discussing viewpoints that are horrible. I would hope that you don't either. The Nazi's are popular villains of history because the majority of the civilized world considers their views abhorrent.
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:06 amI get what they tried to do. I think their execution however was horrible. There were two issues here IMO -- they didn't shine any light on how that he got from everyday normal guy to white nationalist foot soldier. It was almost purely bio about his current state.
Agreed, but they did try to get him to answer that. He just wouldn't. Or couldn't, considering his viewpoints are insane.
His political evolution — from vaguely leftist rock musician to ardent libertarian to fascist activist — was largely fueled by the kinds of frustrations that would not seem exotic to most American conservatives. He believes the federal government is too big, the news media is biased, and that affirmative action programs for minorities are fundamentally unfair.

Ask him how he moved so far right, and he declares that public discourse has become “so toxic that there’s no way to effectively lobby for interests that involve white people.” He name-drops Murray Rothbard and Hans-Hermann Hoppe, architects of “anarcho-capitalism,” with its idea that free markets serve as better societal regulators than the state. And he refers to the 2013 science-fiction movie “Pacific Rim,” in which society is attacked by massive monsters that emerge from beneath the Pacific Ocean.

“So the people, they don’t ask the monsters to stop,” he says. “They build a giant robot to try to stop them. And that’s essentially what fascism is. It’s like our version of centrally coming together to try to stop another already centralized force.”
I think this quote from one of his podcasts gives the best insight.
Mr. Hovater replied: “I mean honestly, it takes people with, like, sort of an odd view of life, at first, to come this way. Because most people are pacified really easy, you know. Like, here’s some money, here’s a nice TV, go watch your sports, you know?”

He added: “The fact that we’re seeing more and more normal people come is because things have gotten so bad. And if they keep getting worse, we’ll keep getting more, just, normal people.”
It makes me think that the same things that drive young muslim men to radicalize is what's driving people like this guy to become Nazis.
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:06 amSecond this is a double-edged sword because you potentially elevate their beliefs when you consider them this way. Many saw them fall on the wrong side of that balance.
The shocking point that I think you are missing is that this guys views are already normalized for a large number of people. There are a lot of people that would agree with what he said, but they aren't willing to go the extra step of saying they are a Nazi. Plus, this article wasn't about solving the issue. It was about identifying a problem, and making people realize just how bad it's become.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

The link was to the front page. By the time I got there I suspect they had seen the flood of traffic and moved the merchandise front and center...just in case. Still maybe they shouldn't link it at all. They got clicks and ad revenue from that and it wasn't clear to me that I'd be delivered to the actual site versus coverage about the site. I wasn't triggered--kidding--but I thought it was extremely poor judgement all the same. The Washington Post in contrast covered how Hovater was fired--hurray by the way-- and talked about how he was raising money on GoyFundme.com. They didn't link it. They explained what it was. They explained the context about why they chose that name. There was no ambiguity at all. Could I have tracked down either site on my own? Sure but I wouldn't have. Again it just was a misstep in a series of missteps in this piece.

I'd argue I'm not missing the point that they are normalized. I also agree that this is radicalization of a similar sort. Economic policy and especially opportunity is almost certainly underneath both but I don't see that this got into that either. I also get that he wouldn't talk about his background. I agree there is some value in de-mystifying them absent the big background. I'd personally characterize it as very little value. Overall it could have been handled much, much, much better. There was no moral imperative to print the piece. IMO they should have seen what many saw--that this piece had poor balance and little merit--and written it off. Wasting time is a part of anything. The editorial page's currency is their judgement and it was severely flawed in this instance.

I'll just point out that Hovater called the article fair. I guess that is a compliment in a way but that highlights what I am saying. A Nazi read an article about his life in a national paper and thought they treated him right. That ain't right.
Last edited by malchior on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by msteelers »

malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:04 amGoyFundme.com.
Is that a typo, or a real website?
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

msteelers wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:06 am
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:04 amGoyFundme.com.
Is that a typo, or a real website?
That is unfortunately real. I'll link WaPo in a moment.

Edit: Nazi Story <- that is how they have it in their headline btw!
Last edited by malchior on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by msteelers »

malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:04 amI'll just point out that Hovater called the article fair. I guess that is a compliment in a way but that highlights what I am saying. A Nazi read an article about his life in a national paper and thought they treated him right. That ain't right.
And to me, that's what makes the article good journalism. The Nazi says he was fairly represented, while the article makes clear that his views are nauseating.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

msteelers wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:12 am
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:04 amI'll just point out that Hovater called the article fair. I guess that is a compliment in a way but that highlights what I am saying. A Nazi read an article about his life in a national paper and thought they treated him right. That ain't right.
And to me, that's what makes the article good journalism. The Nazi says he was fairly represented, while the article makes clear that his views are nauseating.
HIs views are nauseating because *you* take them that way. That is my point. They threw out a factual, neutral piece irrespective of its moral worth and usefulness. That is the irresponsible part. And it linked right to a Nazi site in case you wanted to learn more -- all Starship Troopers like. :grund:
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by msteelers »

malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:16 amThey threw out a factual, neutral piece irrespective of its moral worth and usefulness. That is the irresponsible part.
I feel like you and I have different ideas on what journalism is.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

I agree we have a difference of opinion about journalism. I suspect you are leaning more on the reader to be responsible for the evaluation of the facts, correct?

Also I literally just found this - I agree with about 95% of this piece. It plainly speaks to the issues I have with the piece.

Edit: Also I think this piece also would have been fine if it was paired with an editorial about the issues.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by msteelers »

malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:21 am I agree we have a difference of opinion about journalism. I suspect you are leaning more on the reader to be responsible for the evaluation of the facts, correct?
That's kind of what news journalism is all about.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

msteelers wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:49 am
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:21 am I agree we have a difference of opinion about journalism. I suspect you are leaning more on the reader to be responsible for the evaluation of the facts, correct?
That's kind of what news journalism is all about.
Sure but there is a responsibility about how and what you publish. They failed here. Miserably IMO. They could have done many things to mitigate the reaction they got. They instead decided to be arrogant about it and only apologize for the offense. Which is backhanded at best. Again I think the intent was noble - their execution was the problem here. And that has been their ongoing issue.

Also I felt it was a bit ironic that they feel they need to be paternal when dealing with educated folks but not the ignorant masses who brought us Trump.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

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msteelers wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:49 am
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:21 am I agree we have a difference of opinion about journalism. I suspect you are leaning more on the reader to be responsible for the evaluation of the facts, correct?
That's kind of what news journalism is all about.
The problem is when they fail to give appropriate weight to the relevant parts and just list him having 2 dogs named Jake and jewkiller, that he raised from pups who he loves dearly.

Or that he works at the local grocery store, volunteers at his church, and when he has time, joins his friends to celebrate their comaraderie (sp?) And sense of community in their chosen uniforms, a monegrammed white sheet. They call themselves the KKK.

This kind of journalism has been blamed for the 2016 election.

When Benghazi and emails are still being reported long after they have been debunked alongside sexual assault allegations and claims of racism on the other side, because "fairness" and "even handedness", it creates a false equivalency.

Reporting the facts does not mean all facts are equally important. Listing facts that are horrific in a long list of normal everyday facts, normalizes the horrific one.

Journalism is more than reporting facts. Otherwise there wouldn't be degrees in journalism.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

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msteelers wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:18 am
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:16 amThey threw out a factual, neutral piece irrespective of its moral worth and usefulness. That is the irresponsible part.
I feel like you and I have different ideas on what journalism is.
I think msteelers and I have very similar ideas on what journalism is, at least in this context.

If I hear one more person complain about how exposes attempting to shed light on the "guy next door" nature of the alt-right are just efforts to "normalize" the horrible ideology of the alt-right . . . Good grief.
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Also, to this, all I can say is WTF??????

ABC News suspends Brian Ross for 4 weeks over erroneous Flynn story

You want to complain about problems in journalism? There's a problem for you. Covering one of the biggest stories there is right now, one that's got the hyper-partisans from the right and left ready to jump into the fray, and ABC News fucks it up THIS badly? How on earth can that happen?

If you are not iron-clad on your corroboration, you DO NOT report that Flynn is going to testify that Trump himself directed him to contact the Russians.

And I know they took action quickly to correct, but that's just too big a fuck up. How in the world are we ever going to reach the FOX news, Hannity watching set with some actual truth if the major news organizations aren't a bedrock of reliability? Disgraceful.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Combustible Lemur »

Kurth wrote:Also, to this, all I can say is WTF??????

ABC News suspends Brian Ross for 4 weeks over erroneous Flynn story

You want to complain about problems in journalism? There's a problem for you. Covering one of the biggest stories there is right now, one that's got the hyper-partisans from the right and left ready to jump into the fray, and ABC News fucks it up THIS badly? How on earth can that happen?

If you are not iron-clad on your corroboration, you DO NOT report that Flynn is going to testify that Trump himself directed him to contact the Russians.

And I know they took action quickly to correct, but that's just too big a fuck up. How in the world are we ever going to reach the FOX news, Hannity watching set with some actual truth if the major news organizations aren't a bedrock of reliability? Disgraceful.
True, but this also illustrates the incredible dissonance between the political tribes. If it was a fox employee who made an error, they would just flash up a footnote and ask about Hillary. How do you reach Trump supporters when playing by the agreed rules is a damnable sin made of liberal weakness.



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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo »

Kurth wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:25 am If I hear one more person complain about how exposes attempting to shed light on the "guy next door" nature of the alt-right are just efforts to "normalize" the horrible ideology of the alt-right . . . Good grief.
Good grief indeed.

When the "exposé" has the same tone as when they are talking about the guy who knits sweaters for his local church, then yeah, that's normalizing alt-right behaviour.

Next up, a little Stalin bio where we hear all about what a great family man he was, how he started up orphanages around the country (and business was good, having created a huge number of orphans) and how sometimes, if he had a bad day, he'd shoot his major-domos in the head. Oh, and he drove a buick.

I'll say it a again. Journalism is more than reporting the facts. If that's all it was, there would be no need for colleges of journalism.

Saying journalism is just about reporting the facts is about as true as saying that all lawyers do is present the facts in court.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Kurth »

GreenGoo wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:36 am
Kurth wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:25 am If I hear one more person complain about how exposes attempting to shed light on the "guy next door" nature of the alt-right are just efforts to "normalize" the horrible ideology of the alt-right . . . Good grief.
Good grief indeed.

When the "exposé" has the same tone as when they are talking about the guy who knits sweaters for his local church, then yeah, that's normalizing alt-right behaviour.

Next up, a little Stalin bio where we hear all about what a great family man he was, how he started up orphanages around the country (and business was good, having created a huge number of orphans) and how sometimes, if he had a bad day, he'd shoot his major-domos in the head. Oh, and he drove a buick.

I'll say it a again. Journalism is more than reporting the facts. If that's all it was, there would be no need for colleges of journalism.

Saying journalism is just about reporting the facts is about as true as saying that all lawyers do is present the facts in court.
Journalism is not just about reporting facts, although that's obviously a pretty big part of it, notwithstanding how fast and loose many in the media appear to treat that aspect of their jobs these days.

But I think you know that's not what I'm saying.

The reason the reaction to the NYT's piece on the Nazis next door is hysterical and over blown is that they clearly weren't just reporting mundane facts about Hovater and his ilk. They were taking a position and reporting with a voice on that position. That voice obviously was trying to shine a light on the fact that assholes like Hovater are all around us and hiding in plain sight. The point of the story was that we need to be wary of assuming the threat is far away and utterly foreign, not that Nazis are normal because, you know, they're people, too.

It pains me to see repeated evidence that we are so Balkanized that presumably left-leaning, rational people are canceling their subscriptions to the NYT because the reporting and editorial decisions of that publication are too disagreeable to them.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

Kurth wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:04 am The reason the reaction to the NYT's piece on the Nazis next door is hysterical and over blown is that they clearly weren't just reporting mundane facts about Hovater and his ilk. They were taking a position and reporting with a voice on that position. That voice obviously was trying to shine a light on the fact that assholes like Hovater are all around us and hiding in plain sight. The point of the story was that we need to be wary of assuming the threat is far away and utterly foreign, not that Nazis are normal because, you know, they're people, too.

It pains me to see repeated evidence that we are so Balkanized that presumably left-leaning, rational people are canceling their subscriptions to the NYT because the reporting and editorial decisions of that publication are too disagreeable to them.
Could you consider that this is the precious snowflake argument dressed up in a nice package? I'll again strongly suggest that much of the criticism was balanced and nuanced and you are (seemingly) boiling it down to hysterical pearl clutching. And I'd agree some was truly overblown but a lot of it wasn't.

From your comments--and the many like them--perhaps you aren't truly "hearing" the criticism. That doesn't mean you have to agree but the jump to hysteria and being overblown is a bit reductive. It wasn't simply about normalization. The bulk of the criticism was that the tone could be seen as normalizing so there needed to be a trade off that made the piece valuable. Anything that explained his radicalization. Talking to family members and people in his community to figure out where he went wrong. Anything to make the possible normalization worth it. Instead they sole sourced Hovater pretty much. He shut up and they decided to go with what they had which didn't even come close to doing any of that. They didn't have to print. They could have developed it more. Instead, they got the balance all wrong which has been a recurring NY Times problem.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

Interesting perspective on the media's coverage of the tax bill. Adam Davidson started a Twitter thread to lay out an example of how the coverage is more of the same horse race bullshit instead of just spelling out the facts in an informative way. And I'll add my flavor which is that many players in the media do this because they are bending over backwards to be neutral even when the totality of evidence is overwhelming.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by msteelers »

malchior wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:49 am Interesting perspective on the media's coverage of the tax bill. Adam Davidson started a Twitter thread to lay out an example of how the coverage is more of the same horse race bullshit instead of just spelling out the facts in an informative way. And I'll add my flavor which is that many players in the media do this because they are bending over backwards to be neutral even when the totality of evidence is overwhelming.
Yes, how the mainstream media tries to be neutral is completely inadequate and opens the door for shenanigans like what we see going on every day now.

Journalism should aim to be unbiased*. What the MSM is doing is not unbiased journalism, it's "equal time journalism" (for lack of a better term). If you say the sky is blue, and I say the sky is brown, then unbiased journalism should say "Malchior says the sky is blue, msteelers says the sky is brown. It is commonly believed, and science confirms, that the sky is blue". Preferably with a picture showing the sky is in fact, blue. Instead what the MSM does is say "Malchior says the sky is blue, but msteelers insists the sky is brown."

They present both sides with equal weight, even though one side is clearly wrong.

There are several reasons for this. IMO decades of conservatives calling the media biased against them, and the rise of Fox News, are the biggest culprits here. But we can't forget that most journalistic entities are for-profit businesses. When nearly half of your potential audience thinks you are lying right out of the gate, then from a business standpoint you have to respond.

The good thing is I think the events of 2016 and now 2017 have given the good journalists a wake-up call and made them realize that it's not just a regular job. They have a responsibility to the American people, and without a strong press we get bullshit like the last two years. There's no question that the NYT and the Washington Post have kicked up their journalism game since the election.


*As an aside, unbiased journalism is a myth. A reporters biases will come through in everything from what stories they cover, to what words they use to write up the story. It's a big concept, but I'll just finish by saying that a good reporter identifies their biases, and works to limit them wherever possible.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by pr0ner »

Trump thinks people should sue ABC if they lost money in the stock market when it dipped on Ross's report.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by msteelers »

Could you imagine the precedent that would set? It wouldn't be good for Trump either. How many times has the Dow dropped based on his asinine comments?
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by pr0ner »

msteelers wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:13 pm Could you imagine the precedent that would set? It wouldn't be good for Trump either. How many times has the Dow dropped based on his asinine comments?
He doesn't care. This lets him attack the media. But it would be hilarious if a bunch of people sued Trump the next time he personally tanks a company's stock price.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by RunningMn9 »

msteelers wrote:
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:16 amThey threw out a factual, neutral piece irrespective of its moral worth and usefulness. That is the irresponsible part.
I feel like you and I have different ideas on what journalism is.
Yeah. I’ve been trying to follow along here but find malchior’s reaction to be way over the top (and if I’m being honest, it’s become an all-too-common element of his responses).

I get that we are living in your dystopian nightmare (mine too), but you’ve got to dial it back just a little bit. :)


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And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

RunningMn9 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:30 pm
msteelers wrote:
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:16 amThey threw out a factual, neutral piece irrespective of its moral worth and usefulness. That is the irresponsible part.
I feel like you and I have different ideas on what journalism is.
Yeah. I’ve been trying to follow along here but find malchior’s reaction to be way over the top (and if I’m being honest, it’s become an all-too-common element of his responses).

I get that we are living in your dystopian nightmare (mine too), but you’ve got to dial it back just a little bit. :)


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I do not necessarily think that is a fair assessment but I get that the online aspect could make it seem that way. This isn't screaming at the top of your lungs stuff. This is btw this is another especially good example of how they mess things up in a technical way stuff. The arguments I am often making are fairly nuanced and that is tough to communicate. I also think that anyone who thinks the position taken about the Nazi article is hysteria is not listening in the active listening sense.

I also believe there is a frog boiling element to all this. It's bad enough in some ways that people are truly normalized to it. There was some deeply irresponsible reporting last year through this year. When you hold them to semi-regular standards it can certainly appear to be out of range. All I ask is that people consider that is a possibility.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by RunningMn9 »

malchior wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:52 amI do not necessarily think that is a fair assessment but I get that the online aspect could make it seem that way. This isn't screaming at the top of your lungs stuff.
It if helps, it's not the screaming at the top of your lungs that creates the impression, it's your selection of adjectives. :)
malchior wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:52 amThe arguments I am often making are fairly nuanced and that is tough to communicate.
Please don't ever say that out loud about yourself. :)

If things are tough for you to communicate, the notion that your arguments are too nuanced for others to understand is not at the top of the list of reasons why you find it so hard to communicate them (that reason is well behind your arguments being wrong, or you not understanding your arguments as well as you think).

In either case, if you ever find yourself about to say "My arguments are too nuanced for others to understand", please stop and re-evaluate things before you type something like that. We're not dummies, and we can generally understand nuanced arguments. I can assure you, that's not the problem here. :)
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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