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The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

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malchior
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:01 am
I'm not saying that the NYT did the right thing here. I'm saying that this doesn't seem like an easy call to me.
I disagree this one had particular clarity. This one was like porn. You know when you see it that this was a bad decision.
And part of the reason why this is making me call into question op ed pages is because: (1) the NYT is inherently limited in qualifying / analyzing op eds like this (so it's difficult for them to put in context *why* this is a dangerous idea; and (2) if the NYT does act in a gatekeeping role in filtering out dangerous / problematic views in its op ed page, then it would follow that it is at least partially endorsing the views expressed in any op ed on its pages (by not rejecting it). At that point what is the value of an op ed section as opposed to an analytical / deep think style section written (or commissioned by) NYT staff?
This doesn't track for me. The NY Times presumably rejects op eds all the time. Could someone read the tea leaves on it like people do with how Courts accept cases? Sure if people knew what the pipeline looked like but that's secret. I think that traditionally keeping the vetting process internal is the model they've adopted to protect the integrity of the process. That's why the explanation makes it even worse. When you see his explanation...it wasn't good enough. The bottom line is that the decision to publish in this publication elevates the argument inherently. That's the power they wield and why we rely on their good judgement.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:04 am
Zarathud wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:02 am
NYT was stupid in publishing the opinion. If it’s worthy of debate, now is the wrong time.
See, I hard disagree with "not now". This seems like *exactly* the right time, if at all - before there are soldiers on the streets of cities. This debate is happening right now, behind closed doors, whether we like it or not.
FWIW this is what Sewell Chan argued. We're beyond the point where we knew this was being discussed and had decent insight into it. Having Tom Cotton pile in with "Hitler had a few good ideas and I'm the man for the job" wasn't necessary.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:38 am
El Guapo wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:04 am
Zarathud wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:02 am
NYT was stupid in publishing the opinion. If it’s worthy of debate, now is the wrong time.
See, I hard disagree with "not now". This seems like *exactly* the right time, if at all - before there are soldiers on the streets of cities. This debate is happening right now, behind closed doors, whether we like it or not.
FWIW this is what Sewell Chan argued. We're beyond the point where we knew this was being discussed and had decent insight into it. Having Tom Cotton pile in with "Hitler had a few good ideas" wasn't necessary.
We are? I assume that this is being discussed right now. More than that, given that it seems pretty clear that Trump himself would like to send in soldiers and start bashing heads, I would think that it's more likely than not that we'll see active duty troops in U.S. cities within a couple weeks or so.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:42 am
malchior wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:38 am
El Guapo wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:04 am
Zarathud wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:02 am
NYT was stupid in publishing the opinion. If it’s worthy of debate, now is the wrong time.
See, I hard disagree with "not now". This seems like *exactly* the right time, if at all - before there are soldiers on the streets of cities. This debate is happening right now, behind closed doors, whether we like it or not.
FWIW this is what Sewell Chan argued. We're beyond the point where we knew this was being discussed and had decent insight into it. Having Tom Cotton pile in with "Hitler had a few good ideas" wasn't necessary.
We are? I assume that this is being discussed right now.
Beyond the point meant Tom Cotton's op ed didn't break this news to us. His op ed more so staked out ground in the emerging fascist coalition. The NY Times sanctioned his use of their space to say something along the lines of 'If Trump won't do it then I'll do it when I'm in a position to do so. And if Trump wants to do it, then sign me up.'
More than that, given that it seems pretty clear that Trump himself would like to send in soldiers and start bashing heads, I would think that it's more likely than not that we'll see active duty troops in U.S. cities within a couple weeks or so.
I unfortunately agree. He tested the idea. He found out the points of resistance. His cadre might even seemingly back off a little but they'll take any advantage to do so. This is a President who knows he is in danger of losing and has no morals about keeping power.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by $iljanus »

Tom Cotton: In fact, the federal government has a constitutional duty to the states to “protect each of them from domestic violence.”
Well with that rationale I would expect that peaceful demonstrations should be protected from violent overreacting authorities. Just saying, Mr Cotton. :whistle:
tl;dr

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:53 am
El Guapo wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:42 am
malchior wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:38 am
El Guapo wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:04 am
Zarathud wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:02 am
NYT was stupid in publishing the opinion. If it’s worthy of debate, now is the wrong time.
See, I hard disagree with "not now". This seems like *exactly* the right time, if at all - before there are soldiers on the streets of cities. This debate is happening right now, behind closed doors, whether we like it or not.
FWIW this is what Sewell Chan argued. We're beyond the point where we knew this was being discussed and had decent insight into it. Having Tom Cotton pile in with "Hitler had a few good ideas" wasn't necessary.
We are? I assume that this is being discussed right now.
Beyond the point meant Tom Cotton's op ed didn't break this news to us. His op ed more so staked out ground in the emerging fascist coalition. The NY Times sanctioned his use of their space to say something along the lines of 'If Trump won't do it then I'll do it when I'm in a position to do so. And if Trump wants to do it, then sign me up.'
More than that, given that it seems pretty clear that Trump himself would like to send in soldiers and start bashing heads, I would think that it's more likely than not that we'll see active duty troops in U.S. cities within a couple weeks or so.
I unfortunately agree. He tested the idea. He found out the points of resistance. His cadre might even seemingly back off a little but they'll take any advantage to do so. This is a President who knows he is in danger of losing and has no morals about keeping power.
I just don't think that most people appreciate how likely this is. And on that I think "A sitting U.S. Senator is pushing for active duty troops to be deployed in cities" increases public knowledge of that.

But like I've said, I struggle with the problem that publishing the op ed as is doesn't give the reader important context. Which is why I'm wondering whether the right answer was to publish it while soliciting a contrary op ed to run with it.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Pyperkub »

The logical conclusion of the action Tom Cotton's screed calls for is a brief "" Mission Accomplished " moment, followed by an American descent into 21st century Iraq.
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:48 pm
I just don't think that most people appreciate how likely this is. And on that I think "A sitting U.S. Senator is pushing for active duty troops to be deployed in cities" increases public knowledge of that.
Speaking of which


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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

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malchior
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

Interesting. Sort of a compromise between what El Guapo was saying and what I was saying. Still important but not that important because of the Internet (probably).
Last edited by malchior on Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Holman »

Zaxxon wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:48 pm
Newspaper of record: "US Senator just kind of slipped Nazism by us so we printed it."
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

Yeah because THE EDITOR HAD NOT READ IT. It makes his explanation/defense last night make *no sense*.

Last edited by malchior on Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Zaxxon »

I also love how a big part of the solution is to publish fewer op-eds, rather than, you know, maybe not publishing the fascist ones.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

Zaxxon wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:51 pm
I also love how a big part of the solution is to publish fewer op-eds, rather than, you know, maybe not publishing the fascist ones.
Well he didn't know. Apparently US Senators can self-publish straight onto the OpEd page in the NY Times. I can't get over this. His job has to be on the rocks. That he made some lofty spirited defense of the principles and it comes down to ... the dog ate the homework. It's astounding. Maybe Bennet's brother vouched for it? I can think up a million funny guesses but the fact remains that this whole episode makes absolutely no sense.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by El Guapo »

Zaxxon wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:51 pm
I also love how a big part of the solution is to publish fewer op-eds, rather than, you know, maybe not publishing the fascist ones.
Like I've said, I think one logical resolution of this issue is "no op ed section." I guess I don't understand how "fewer" op eds makes sense, though.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:56 am
Zaxxon wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:51 pm
I also love how a big part of the solution is to publish fewer op-eds, rather than, you know, maybe not publishing the fascist ones.
Like I've said, I think one logical resolution of this issue is "no op ed section." I guess I don't understand how "fewer" op eds makes sense, though.
It could make sense if the problem is they believe they do not put enough focus on the review pipeline to manage it to the paper's standards. I also suspect they live in a world where they still haven't faced reality. Pre-2016 publishing an op ed from any Senator for any reason was a safe bet. We don't live in that world anymore and they perhaps just got a wake up call.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

If the NYT/Tom Cotton story couldn't get more absurd. It has come out that the NY Times solicited the op ed FROM Tom Cotton. Then they didn't read it before publishing it. It's a complete own goal. In response, 300 workers outside Editorial are doing a virtual walkout today.


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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:15 pm
If the NYT/Tom Cotton story couldn't get more absurd. It has come out that the NY Times solicited the op ed FROM Tom Cotton. Then they didn't read it before publishing it. It's a complete own goal. In response, 300 workers outside Editorial are doing a virtual walkout today.

That's crazy. How can you defend doing that without at a minimum also soliciting some contrary op ed ("hey, maybe don't invade American cities and kill civilians?")

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:22 pm
malchior wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:15 pm
If the NYT/Tom Cotton story couldn't get more absurd. It has come out that the NY Times solicited the op ed FROM Tom Cotton. Then they didn't read it before publishing it. It's a complete own goal. In response, 300 workers outside Editorial are doing a virtual walkout today.

That's crazy. How can you defend doing that without at a minimum also soliciting some contrary op ed ("hey, maybe don't invade American cities and kill civilians?")
Right! I'm sort of hoping that it is a bit of exaggeration or misunderstanding because it is bonkers. I don't know how Bennet keeps the confidence of anyone above or below him in this circumstance.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

This is where the Democrats need to learn from the Republicans and complain about this loud and often.


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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Unagi »

malchior wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:27 pm
This is where the Democrats need to learn from the Republicans and complain about this loud and often.

Where and How do I go about complaining about this.

What's the best way?

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

Unagi wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:30 pm
malchior wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:27 pm
This is where the Democrats need to learn from the Republicans and complain about this loud and often.

Where and How do I go about complaining about this.

What's the best way?
I don't know. These media companies are huge and these decisions are very high up in the orgs. That is why I think the Democrats and especially Biden's campaign should raise it repeatedly.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Enough »

When you go from a metaphorical death watch in the financial sense to a literal one in the existential sense,
Since May 26, more than 300 press freedom violations are reported nationwide by journalists covering demonstrations against the death in Minneapolis police custody of George Floyd, according to data collected by the U.S. Press Freedom Tracker, of which CPJ is a founding partner. CPJ calls on local authorities across the country to instruct police not to target journalists and to exempt media from curfew restrictions. CPJ's board of directors writes a rare letter, calling on local authorities to let journalists do their jobs safely and to hold attackers to account.
On the news on the radio a bit ago, CPJ said this is by far the most incidents in over fifty years in the US and the severity of the attacks is particularly notable. Russia, China, Iran and many more have taken this opportunity to make statements and the safety of journalists declines even further. Ugh, winning.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Isgrimnur »

None of ours have fallen out of windows.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Enough »

Isgrimnur wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:58 am
None of ours have fallen out of windows.
Right, ours get brutalized by cops and then killed in mass shootings (Capital Gazette anyone). And not sure, but are you are trying to trivialize or joke about the historic over 300 incidents of violations (that they know about) since just May 26? What's next, saying none of our protestors get run over by tanks?
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

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I believe he only meant to say that, for instance, Russia isn’t in a position to ‘make statements’
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Enough »

Unagi wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:49 am
I believe he only meant to say that Russia isn’t in a position to ‘make statements’
That is a fair point.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Kurth »

El Guapo wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:22 pm
malchior wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 1:15 pm
If the NYT/Tom Cotton story couldn't get more absurd. It has come out that the NY Times solicited the op ed FROM Tom Cotton. Then they didn't read it before publishing it. It's a complete own goal. In response, 300 workers outside Editorial are doing a virtual walkout today.

That's crazy. How can you defend doing that without at a minimum also soliciting some contrary op ed ("hey, maybe don't invade American cities and kill civilians?")
Ok, notwithstanding my prior posts defending the NYT for publishing the Tom Cotton piece, this is not a good look for the paper. Not at all.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

Major shake up at the NY Times in the Opinion section. The leadership tier has resigned or have been re-assigned. There will be an Acting Editor through the election.


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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

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Putting this here as it's the closest relevant place given recent events...

Can we get this op-ed?


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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Pyperkub »

This doesn't appear as if it will end well for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:
Late in the evening on June 5, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette removed two stories from its website that were shared earlier in the day on the paper’s social media platform. One story was written by P-G reporter Lauren Lee and summarized a march that snaked through Pittsburgh East End in honor of George Floyd, a Black man killed by Minneapolis police. The other was a story wrapping up statements from Pittsburgh City councilors for a discussion about police brutality and reforms.

This story was written by P-G reporter Ashley Murray who tweeted that she reported the issue to the newsroom at 8:40 p.m. and still hadn’t heard back as of 11:30 p.m. As of late night on June 5, the stories were still posted on the paper’s social media platforms, but the links were dead...

...stories were removed for several hours last night, and reporters say their words have been replaced. According to a P-G staffer who wished to remain anonymous, the replaced version of Murray's story was uploaded by a member of non-unionized management at 7:47 a.m. on June 6. This staffer shared a screenshot of P-G's publishing software to confirm this.
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Fox News used digitally manipulated images in stories about Seattle
Fox News published digitally altered and misleading photos on stories about Seattle’s Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ) in what photojournalism experts called a clear violation of ethical standards for news organizations.

As part of a package of stories Friday about the zone, where demonstrators have taken over several city blocks on Capitol Hill after Seattle police abandoned the East Precinct, Fox’s website for much of the day featured a photo of a man standing with a military-style rifle in front of what appeared to be a smashed retail storefront.

The image was actually a mashup of photos from different days, taken by different photographers — it was done by splicing a Getty Images photo of an armed man, who had been at the protest zone June 10, with other images from May 30 of smashed windows in downtown Seattle. Another altered image combined the gunman photo with yet another image, making it appear as though he was standing in front of a sign declaring “You are now entering Free Cap Hill.”

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

NY Times. This appointment was the basis of the Voice of America resignations earlier in the week. Pack is cleaning house and you can certainly imagine the timing is related to the upcoming election. This is another break down of our government. American media services had a tradition of non-partisan broadcast of *American* values to the world. Now they will likely only broadcast Trump's values.
A conservative filmmaker who recently took over a United States global media agency removed the chiefs of four news organizations under its purview on Wednesday night, according to people with knowledge of the decision, in an action that raises questions about their editorial independence.

The filmmaker, Michael Pack, also dismissed the head of a technology group and disbanded the bipartisan board that helps oversee and advise those five organizations. He replaced its members largely with Trump administration political appointees, including himself as chairman. One board member works for a conservative advocacy organization, Liberty Counsel Action.

The moves were criticized by congressional officials, including a leading Democratic senator, and former diplomats as an effort to turn the news organizations under the United States Agency for Global Media into partisan outlets. The organizations receive funding from the American government but operate independently.

Mr. Pack is a close ally of Stephen K. Bannon, the former campaign strategist and White House adviser to President Trump who has urged Mr. Trump to take charge of the news organizations and reshape them to his purposes. Democrats in the Senate held up Mr. Pack’s nomination for years, but Mr. Trump urged Republicans in recent weeks to push through the confirmation.

The Republican-led Senate confirmed Mr. Pack this month in a party-line vote, despite the recent disclosure of legal problems surrounding him. Last month, the attorney general for the District of Columbia said his office was investigating whether Mr. Pack had illegally enriched himself by sending $1.6 million from the Public Media Lab, a nonprofit group he oversees, to his for-profit film production company.

The organizational heads dismissed Wednesday night were Bay Fang of Radio Free Asia; Jamie Fly of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty; Alberto M. Fernandez of Middle East Broadcasting Networks; Emilio Vazquez of the Office of Cuba Broadcasting; and Libby Liu of the Open Technology Fund.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Unagi »

No clue where to post this to invoke to proper discussion....


https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... -ntp-feeds


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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Pyperkub »

Huge 48 hours in the newspaper business
The next 48 hours may decide the fate of two of America’s largest newspaper chains that collectively serve almost a fifth of all American local newspaper readers.

And what happens in those hours could prompt a wave of other moves across the rest of the industry.

The dates June 30 and July 1 have called out from the calendar for a while now. On Tuesday, Tribune Publishing will reach the end of two “standstill” periods. Tribune’s two major shareholders — Alden Global Capital, with 33 percent of the company’s shares, and Los Angeles Times owner Patrick Soon-Shiong, with 25 percent — had promised not to actively buy or sell any shares until June 30.

When that restriction ends, you can expect Tribune’s uneasy status quo to come to an end quickly. After a chaotic decade, the chain had been briefly semi-stable after Michael Ferro’s departure from management. But then Alden bought up those shares in November, and since then Tribune has given Alden two board seats, imposed Alden-style cuts, and created Alden-style management chaos.

Then, on Wednesday, final bids for McClatchy’s 30 newspapers are due, as the country’s second-largest chain prepares to wind toward some exit from bankruptcy.
The really fascinating question raised: could McClatchy go... gasp!... non-profit?
Here’s one big new possibility to look for: a new potential buyer of McClatchy intent on pulling its newspapers from the clutches of hedge funds and setting up the country’s first major nonprofit newspaper chain...

...The McClatchy bankruptcy has hatched a new idea, one that’s been talked about for at least a couple of years, but mostly hypothetically: Why not buy one of these big struggling chains — and take it nonprofit?

That’s what on the table today. Leaders in the field of nonprofit journalism are deciding over these 48 hours whether or not to make a bid for all of McClatchy, sources tell me. They say they can raise the needed cash of $300 million-plus.

The big question: What then? How would a civic-minded nonprofit approach the tough transformations still ahead for local news, which is still highly dependent on print revenues smack in the middle of the COVID age? In this growing civic-good journalism world, there are many good people with the right motives — but very uneven skills to transform beleaguered companies.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

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OK this is just pitiful.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Holman »

Trump's new head of the Voice of America is refusing to extend visas for foreign journalists working for the agency.
Dozens of foreign nationals working as journalists in the U.S. for Voice of America, the federal government's international broadcaster, will not have their visas extended once they expire, according to three people with knowledge of the decision.
Aside from the career-destruction being callously wrought here, there's real danger for some reporters:
The foreign journalists are particularly valued for their language skills, which are crucial to VOA's mission as an international broadcaster. One VOA journalist who asked not to be named because of a fear of retaliation, said some of the foreign journalists forced to return home would likely face repercussions from regimes hostile to the U.S.
Jamal Khashoggi could not be reached for comment.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Holman »

malchior wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:32 pm
I'll be surprised if the NYT "publishing his home address" goes any farther than "Carlson lives on one of the grandest and most expensive blocks of the Upper East Side." They do that all the time.

And haven't Carlson fans now fully doxxed a reporter associated with this upcoming story?
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

malchior
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Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior »

Holman wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:52 am
malchior wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:32 pm
I'll be surprised if the NYT "publishing his home address" goes any farther than "Carlson lives on one of the grandest and most expensive blocks of the Upper East Side." They do that all the time.
Yup. There is 0% chance the NY Times was publishing a street address. It was bullshit. I can't help but think that everything has to be considered that Carlson is now one of many positioning to be Trump's successor.
And haven't Carlson fans now fully doxxed a reporter associated with this upcoming story?
You are correct, sir!

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