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The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

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malchior
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:19 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:18 am
Turkey gave up their bugs for this? They're not doing it for altruistic purposes. What are they expecting out of it?
Of course not. However, Turkey is a regional competitor with Saudi Arabia. This undermines Saudi authority. At least partially. The business community is backing away quickly from the Saudi regime at the moment. It is a hit to their reputation to be sure despite Trump being a piece of shit as usual about this. With Trump all you have to do to predict his behavior is understand what a decent person would do in any situation and just expect the opposite. A great quality in a leader to be sure.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:31 pm

Is that enough, though? If the report is true, they had completely compromised the SA embassy. They've given that up for this. Is the reward worth the cost to them? Presumably it is, but I'm not seeing it, hence my question.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:52 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:31 pm
Is that enough, though? If the report is true, they had completely compromised the SA embassy. They've given that up for this. Is the reward worth the cost to them? Presumably it is, but I'm not seeing it, hence my question.
Every news organization in the western world is talking about this. There is pressure on business and western leaders to cut off Saudi Arabia. This is exactly the type of event that you would hope to get on a regional rival. To wit, evidence that the government murdered a mild critic who writes for one of the biggest papers in the world. Yes it is plenty enough. It is pretty much a huge win for the Turkish intelligence apparatus.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:03 pm

malchior wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:52 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:31 pm
Is that enough, though? If the report is true, they had completely compromised the SA embassy. They've given that up for this. Is the reward worth the cost to them? Presumably it is, but I'm not seeing it, hence my question.
Every news organization in the western world is talking about this. There is pressure on business and western leaders to cut off Saudi Arabia. This is exactly the type of event that you would hope to get on a regional rival. A murder of a mild critic who writes for one of the biggest papers in the world. Yes it is plenty enough.
I...don't think the "hope" that the world turns on SA would be enough. Every time someone writes a tell all about drumpf with all these heinous facts about him causes no end of media frenzy. But nothing changes. And there's more riding on business with SA than bad PR could compromise. Probably. Maybe.

I'm not convinced that the word of Turkey, not exactly the most trustworthy of nations, is going to be enough for countries to harm themselves and SA economically. Even if there is audio, many countries are going to ignore it, or even claim they are falsified. One of those might even be the USA.

Countries with huge human rights violations are treated cordially all the time, at least at the negotiating table. If the world can ignore the horrors that many countries perpetrate on their citizenry, I struggle to see how clearly identifying a human rights atrocity that occurred to a single individual is going to be meaningful enough to warrant starting from scratch in intelligence gathering, because I struggle to see how it's going to have a meaningful impact on SA outside of the current news cycle.

Remember, we are not talking about whether it will damage SA. It will. Is it enough to warrant burning a significant line of intel on a regional rival?

You obviously see this differently, and that's good. I hope you are right. I suspect you are not.

It's not that I can't see ways that the information can be used to great effect. I'm just confused that they would drop this on the international community with no plan other than *hope* it does damage, and then tell SA they have been significantly compromised, so feel free to destroy this information channel forever.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by LordMortis » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:28 pm

I'll part from OO and say I wasn't offended by Trump's statement. It was an honest and unprepared answer giving as much detail as was reasonable. I thought the response was uncharacteristic in that it was honest, coherent, with no bogeyman, and not full of subtext that leaves me in fear or anger.

Get back to me when we have a real response.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:59 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:28 pm
Get back to me when we have a real response.
Do you want the actual response, or what drumpf thinks is the response and that he tells the world that the US is doing?

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:23 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:03 pm
I...don't think the "hope" that the world turns on SA would be enough. Every time someone writes a tell all about drumpf with all these heinous facts about him causes no end of media frenzy. But nothing changes. And there's more riding on business with SA than bad PR could compromise. Probably. Maybe.

I'm not convinced that the word of Turkey, not exactly the most trustworthy of nations, is going to be enough for countries to harm themselves and SA economically. Even if there is audio, many countries are going to ignore it, or even claim they are falsified. One of those might even be the USA.
I think you are over-interpreting what I am saying. You asked a straight forward question. Was this enough to "burn" their intelligence gathering there. And to that I answered yes because it seems like a straight forward victory. There are plenty of other reasons that it is a yes including Turkey simply overplaying their hand. Turkey came out and say they murdered him quickly after the event so that very well could have been the case.
Countries with huge human rights violations are treated cordially all the time, at least at the negotiating table. If the world can ignore the horrors that many countries perpetrate on their citizenry, I struggle to see how clearly identifying a human rights atrocity that occurred to a single individual is going to be meaningful enough to warrant starting from scratch in intelligence gathering, because I struggle to see how it's going to have a meaningful impact on SA outside of the current news cycle.

Remember, we are not talking about whether it will damage SA. It will. Is it enough to warrant burning a significant line of intel on a regional rival?
Again almost certainly a yes. Plus, you are giving the Turks too much credit and SA not enough. SA likely assumed they were bugged. This wasn't some subtle operation. They ran 15 people in and out of the country in a few hours. They told the staff to take the day off. In fact, you could argue that Salman wanted the world to know this happened. It certainly chills his critics. He has already kidnapped the PM of Lebanon and forced him to video tape a ransom video. He isn't afraid to flex his muscle.
It's not that I can't see ways that the information can be used to great effect. I'm just confused that they would drop this on the international community with no plan other than *hope* it does damage, and then tell SA they have been significantly compromised, so feel free to destroy this information channel forever.
I don't understand your reasoning here. If I'm following you, you believe Turkey possibly made the whole recordings thing up? That probably is the least logical thing because all the evidence still suggests they killed Khashoggi. He is gone. All the video tapes for the day don't exist. Or more accurately the SA authorities claim they don't record their security feeds which is preposterous. They flew in a security team that arrived at the embassy shortly after Khashoggi arrived and left the country hours later. All within 6 hours if I understand the timeline. Khasoggi never left the embassy. Khasoggi is still missing. No one has heard from him including his family. And ultimately the important counter-point. The Turks either burned a real capability or a make believe one if the recordings don't really exist. Either way it is burned. Wondering if they would have done it is weird to me since they are blown either way.

TLDR; So to boil down this quick analysis - here are some of the possiblities:

1) Turkey thought they had the goods and are documenting the horrible nature of SA's regime (ironic as that is).
2) Turkey didn't think it through and overplayed their hand
3) Also possible, SA baited Turkey into falling for a trap and amplified their threat capability to critics of the Kingdom.
*) No matter what, the Turks are claiming to have recordings. This should lead SA to believe they are compromised whether the recordings are real or not.
Last edited by malchior on Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by LordMortis » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:24 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:59 pm
LordMortis wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:28 pm
Get back to me when we have a real response.
Do you want the actual response, or what drumpf thinks is the response and that he tells the world that the US is doing?
What I want doesn't really mean much. I have nothing to evaluate how the US/I am treating this incident based on that clip. All I got is "We're looking in to it." It may very well get swept under the rug seemingly so the administration can have better nepotism with Saudi and my dander may eventually get raised but I don't hear that in his response.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:55 pm

malchior wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:23 pm
1) Turkey thought they had the goods and are documenting the horrible nature of SA's regime (ironic as that is).
2) Turkey didn't think it through and overplayed their hand
3) Also possible, SA baited Turkey into falling for a trap and amplified their threat capability to critics of the Kingdom.
*) No matter what, the Turks are claiming to have recordings. This should lead SA to believe they are compromised whether the recordings are real or not.
I think we've covered all the ground that needs to be covered. You think it's worth burning future intel from this already in place source. I'm less sure. Turkey, potentially, agrees with you.

As for *), it's an evolving news story. Initially they didn't claim they had recordings. They didn't even claim they had proof at first. They simply said, Dude went into SA embassy and was killed, we're sure of it. Then it was "we have proof". Now it's "we have recordings", although I haven't read specifically where an article quotes a Turkey official claiming to have recordings. The last I looked it was rumoured that they had recordings. That might have changed, I'm not following the story closely.

If those recordings are released to international journalists, I'll be very impressed. Well, surprised more than impressed. Which is not to say that I think they don't exist, only that it's common practice for less open or honest governments to claim all sorts of things, including hard proof, then never produce any of it.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:59 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:24 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:59 pm
LordMortis wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:28 pm
Get back to me when we have a real response.
Do you want the actual response, or what drumpf thinks is the response and that he tells the world that the US is doing?
What I want doesn't really mean much.
You're the one who suggested you're not interested until the US has a real response. I read that to mean it mattered to you. I was just curious if you meant "pre-drumpf" real or "post-drumpf" real.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:01 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:31 pm
Is that enough, though? If the report is true, they had completely compromised the SA embassy. They've given that up for this. Is the reward worth the cost to them? Presumably it is, but I'm not seeing it, hence my question.
Isn't it assumed that every embassy and consulate is bugged? Ita certainly not a revelation. That's what makes this even more brazen by the Saudis.

But I guess with the US all up on their dick and apparently tolerant of this kind of thing, if not secretly rooting for it, why the hell not?
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Holman » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:10 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:01 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:31 pm
Is that enough, though? If the report is true, they had completely compromised the SA embassy. They've given that up for this. Is the reward worth the cost to them? Presumably it is, but I'm not seeing it, hence my question.
Isn't it assumed that every embassy and consulate is bugged? Ita certainly not a revelation. That's what makes this even more brazen by the Saudis.
Yup. And this was the consulate in Istanbul, not even the embassy in Ankara.

Their denials have barely concealed the smirk.
But I guess with the US all up on their dick and apparently tolerant of this kind of thing, if not secretly rooting for it, why the hell not?
Authoritarians the world over are seeing that American acquiesence can be had for the price of Trump real estate.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:15 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:55 pm
I think we've covered all the ground that needs to be covered. You think it's worth burning future intel from this already in place source. I'm less sure. Turkey, potentially, agrees with you.
This is not what I'm saying at all. I'm speculating about what happened based on what Turkey/SA did as reported in the media. I was more so pointing out that there are logical reasons for believing the story beyond Turkey's version of the events. Also was saying there is little reason to wonder whether Turkey was burning an intelligence asset re: the recordings because logically they are equivalent.

In the end, Turkey could have made the whole thing up but then all anyone has to do to make Turkey look stupid is produce Khashoggi. Maybe Turkey grabbed him. Maybe they faked the team from Saudi Arabia. It is all possible but to counterbalance that SA's responses to the accusations are preposterous. They claimed they don't record their security feeds. They walked around the embassy with a news crew and opened up every door in the place. Etc. Not exactly the best cover story. And that makes sense if the original timeline holds up because they needed to organize it quickly.
As for *), it's an evolving news story. Initially they didn't claim they had recordings. They didn't even claim they had proof at first. They simply said, Dude went into SA embassy and was killed, we're sure of it. Then it was "we have proof". Now it's "we have recordings", although I haven't read specifically where an article quotes a Turkey official claiming to have recordings. The last I looked it was rumoured that they had recordings. That might have changed, I'm not following the story closely.
*Sigh*
If those recordings are released to international journalists, I'll be very impressed. Well, surprised more than impressed. Which is not to say that I think they don't exist, only that it's common practice for less open or honest governments to claim all sorts of things, including hard proof, then never produce any of it.
They've released redacted videos already today. However, I doubt they'll release the torture/execution portions to journalists. I expect they may share them with NATO nations however. If so, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect confirmation they exist to leak out sometime.
Holman wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:10 pm
Authoritarians the world over are seeing that American acquiesence can be had for the price of Trump real estate.
This is something that bothers me - Khashoggi is likely dead because Trump is President. There is little chance this happens under a reasonable President.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Chaz » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:57 pm

A normal and reasonable response from the President would have been something along the lines of "The news of this individual's disappearance is troubling. Our intelligence community is actively working with our allies abroad to find the truth of what happened. It's too early to speculate about what happened or what our response will be until the investigation is completed and the facts are in."

That's totally reasonable. You don't have to say "It was probably the Saudis", you don't have to lay out what you'd do if it was them. You just have to say that it's concerning and we're figuring out what happened.

Instead, we got Trump saying that he doesn't want to jeopardize a big arms sale to Saudi Arabia, and hey, it's not like that guy was actually a citizen anyway, right? And he wasn't even in the US. That response signaled that he's not super concerned about what happens to non-American citizens, especially when we're selling arms to the people potentially doing whatever. A non-answer would have been better. A non-answer while actually investigating, and then holding the perpetrators accountable would be best. But that's not happening with this admin.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:04 pm

I'm trying to meet you half way here, but you're not making it easy.

Your first response to me was regarding my question about whether telling the world that SA has killed a journalist was worth telling SA they are compromised.

SA just went to war with Canada because we made a single comment criticizing them about women's rights, but you guys think they killed a journalist knowing they were compromised, knowing it would get out?

How do you reconcile that? Do you expect them to go to war with every country that says anything negative about killing journalists? If not, why not? If so, why do it in a place where you know it's going to get out, if you know you are compromised?

Don't mess with us about how we treat our women, but feel free to comment on our assassinations, we invite you to do so?

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Holman » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:42 pm

We're probably wrong to assume that the Saudis even wanted to keep this a secret. Killing a prominent critic sends a domestic message and suppresses dissent. Who wants to be next?

Putin works the same way. A fig-leaf of deniability allows the dictator to protest the accusation, and soon enough the world moves on. Meanwhile the real targets hear the message loud and clear.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:55 pm

Holman wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:42 pm
We're probably wrong to assume that the Saudis even wanted to keep this a secret. Killing a prominent critic sends a domestic message and suppresses dissent. Who wants to be next?

Putin works the same way. A fig-leaf of deniability allows the dictator to protest the accusation, and soon enough the world moves on. Meanwhile the real targets hear the message loud and clear.
My point is, SA went freakin' nuts when they received 1 criticism.

LB and others have already suggested that SA did this with the full intent of having it reach the international community.

How do you reconcile SA's desire to be seen as a progressive, modern country unwilling to accept criticism that they aren't, with the idea that they are killing journalists and intentionally telling the world about it?

"We're a peaceful country and we'll kill anyone who says otherwise"?

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Holman » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:02 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:55 pm
How do you reconcile SA's desire to be seen as a progressive, modern country unwilling to accept criticism that they aren't, with the idea that they are killing journalists and intentionally telling the world about it?

"We're a peaceful country and we'll kill anyone who says otherwise"?
They're a wealthy, powerful monarchy with a lot of international pull. They can show one face to the world while showing another to critics at home.

They know the world will move on from this story. Get back to me in a month if Americans and Canadians are still talking about it.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:29 pm

Holman wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:02 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:55 pm
How do you reconcile SA's desire to be seen as a progressive, modern country unwilling to accept criticism that they aren't, with the idea that they are killing journalists and intentionally telling the world about it?

"We're a peaceful country and we'll kill anyone who says otherwise"?
They're a wealthy, powerful monarchy with a lot of international pull. They can show one face to the world while showing another to critics at home.
Sure, except both the faces in this case are pointed at the world, and are diametrically opposed to each other.

I mean, sure, they can behave wildly differently in 2 somewhat related situations, but that's not particularly coherent, and I don't get the impression that SA is confused about what they want the world to think of them.

Given the comments coming out of congress, it looks like the arms deal will be stopped, irrespective of drumpf's noises otherwise.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:40 pm

malchior wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:15 pm
They've released redacted videos already today. However, I doubt they'll release the torture/execution portions to journalists. I expect they may share them with NATO nations however. If so, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect confirmation they exist to leak out sometime.
Went looking after this post, still looking for an article that says anything about released video. Lots and lots of "turkey says..."

Still looking, time stamps help a bit.

edit: CNN has an article timestamped 30 minutes ago talking about a western intelligence source describing the video. That's good enough. Or is it? Let's ask drumpf.

edit: Actually, the article says their source had the video described to him by a western intelligence person. Not quite the same thing. Here's hoping CNN vetted their source.

edit: Sorry, here's the link.
CNN article

My apologies to all involved if I have not hovered over my news feed reading every development as it transpires.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Holman » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:49 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:29 pm
Holman wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:02 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:55 pm
How do you reconcile SA's desire to be seen as a progressive, modern country unwilling to accept criticism that they aren't, with the idea that they are killing journalists and intentionally telling the world about it?

"We're a peaceful country and we'll kill anyone who says otherwise"?
They're a wealthy, powerful monarchy with a lot of international pull. They can show one face to the world while showing another to critics at home.
Sure, except both the faces in this case are pointed at the world, and are diametrically opposed to each other.

I mean, sure, they can behave wildly differently in 2 somewhat related situations, but that's not particularly coherent, and I don't get the impression that SA is confused about what they want the world to think of them.

Given the comments coming out of congress, it looks like the arms deal will be stopped, irrespective of drumpf's noises otherwise.
Maybe shutting down domestic critics is worth it to them? Maybe this whole situation is perceived differently in Middle East political circles and in North American consumer media?

The Saudis don't care what you or I think. Trump, Ryan, and McConnell don't either.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:51 pm

Holman wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:49 pm
Maybe shutting down domestic critics is worth it to them? Maybe this whole situation is perceived differently in Middle East political circles than in North American consumer media?
Maybe. Khashoggi is sort of an international critic by this point, wouldn't you say?
Holman wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:49 pm
The Saudis don't care what you or I think. Trump, Ryan, and McConnell don't either.
Also, wtf is this? None of any of the people we talk about here care about what any of us think. So what?
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Unagi » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:54 pm

I think his point was just that 'public opinion' or point of fact will not effect them.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:57 pm

Unagi wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:54 pm
I think his point was just that 'public opinion' will not effect them.
Ah, thanks. I was just coming back to read it again to see what I missed.

I don't have an answer to this, except to say again that SA went nuts when our PM made a single comment over something that is small potatoes compared to murdering journalists. They make a big showing about how they are undeserving of human rights criticisms, then murder in cold blood a journalist employed by an international paper, intentionally doing so under the watchful eye of the Turks/world?

Does that seem like a coherent approach to international PR? Is SA known for being incoherent? Is there a power struggle there right now? Perhaps the 2 different approaches are coming from 2 different factions?

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Max Peck » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:22 pm

Mohammed bin Salman doesn't care about the world's fury
Jamal Khashoggi is very likely dead, and the Saudi government is very likely responsible. In turn, much of the international community is strongly condemning Saudi Arabia. So, why is crown prince and de facto Saudi leader Mohammed bin Salman seemingly so unconcerned with the world's fury?

Simple. Because he cares far more about his position at home than his reputation around the world.
While Saudi Arabia's Western allies are lining up to criticize his government, none of those nations pose an existential threat to his rule. If anything, Mohammed bin Salman is confident that these nations will want to retain Saudi stability for reasons of oil market stability and their own export interests.

In contrast, the real threat to his rule is those in Saudi Arabia who, either in opposition to his liberalizing reforms of society, or his ending of the oil-patronage networks, or his consolidation of total power, want to see bin Salman gone.

That makes bin Salman far more concerned about his domestic consolidation of power than he will ever be about a few complaints from Western democracies. The extension here is that everything aggressive bin Salman does — silencing Khashoggi or lambasting Canada — is designed to send a message internally to possible challengers for the throne: I will utterly destroy you if you challenge me.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Max Peck » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:36 pm

What did Trump know, and when did he know it? seems to be a recurring mantra.

NSA: White House Knew ‘Disappeared’ Saudi Dissident Was In Danger. Why Didn’t They Protect Him?
I can confirm that the National Security Agency, America’s big ear, indeed intercepted Saudi communications that indicated Riyadh had something unpleasant in store for Khashoggi. Listening in on foreign governments, after all, is NSA’s main job, and that includes frenemies like Saudi Arabia as well as hostile regimes. At least a day before Khashoggi appeared at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, an NSA official told me, the agency had Top Secret information that Riyadh was planning something nefarious—though exactly what was not clear from the intercepts. This was deemed important because Khashoggi is a legal resident of the United States, and is therefore entitled to protection. According to the NSA official, this threat warning was communicated to the White House through official intelligence channels.

It needs to be asked what, if anything, the White House did with this Top Secret warning. Intelligence without action is merely expensive noise, and if no action was taken in this case, Congress should ask why not. If action was taken—meaning a warning was issued to Saudi officials to keep their hands of Khashoggi—and Riyadh ignored it, that too is something worth investigating. Saudi Arabia is a difficult ally of the United States, but our influence in Riyadh remains significant. This is particularly the case due to the close relationship between President Donald Trump’s administration and MBS, which is reported to be cordial and then some. At press time, the White House had not responded to a request for comment.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:36 pm

Max Peck wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:22 pm
Mohammed bin Salman doesn't care about the world's fury
Jamal Khashoggi is very likely dead, and the Saudi government is very likely responsible. In turn, much of the international community is strongly condemning Saudi Arabia. So, why is crown prince and de facto Saudi leader Mohammed bin Salman seemingly so unconcerned with the world's fury?

Simple. Because he cares far more about his position at home than his reputation around the world.

So what (directed at the washington examiner)? Every politician is more concerned about their position at home than they are about their reputation to the world. That's hardly an insightful observation.

Drumpf cares more about his position at home than he does about his reputation to the world too, and yet he's not willing to give up a billions of SA money for it.

Is bin Salman willing to forgo international relations for the life of one critic? The US isn't the only one dealing with SA and unlike the US some have already moved to sever business deals.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it hardly seems to explain pissing away billions.

Even so, most of my skepticism arises from the idea that SA did it knowing people were watching. And I mean with video cameras, not "the world is watching".

edit: I just point out that the first article says SA doesn't give a crap what the world thinks, and the second article says that the US has significant pull with SA. Can it be both at the same time? Maybe, but it's hard to imagine just how.

"I don't care what you think" on the one hand does not jive with "You absolutely care what we think" on the other. "think" in this context are "actions taken".

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Chaz » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:54 pm

Sure they can. They can not care what we think about human rights abuses, because we haven't really pushed them that hard on it in the past, and now Trump is inclined to support authoritarian rulers, especially ones that plaster his picture on buildings, so they know they have an ally there. At the same time they like buying arms from us, so we could exert pressure by not doing that.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:42 pm

k.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Unagi » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:05 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:18 am
Turkey gave up their bugs for this? They're not doing it for altruistic purposes. What are they expecting out of it?

It's possible that Khashoggi was the bug.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by malchior » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:13 am

Unagi wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:05 am
GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:18 am
Turkey gave up their bugs for this? They're not doing it for altruistic purposes. What are they expecting out of it?

It's possible that Khashoggi was the bug.
That is one of the theories. Either via a wire or his smartwatch according to some reports. .

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:05 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:02 am
Holman wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:40 am
The administration is bending over backwards to avoid making Khashoggi 's murder an issue.
Of course it is. We just signed a $110B defense deal with them last year that Trump still talks about and Kushner is probably still counting on them for bailouts.

Follow

The money.
And guess who is sitting down with the Saudis to discuss this thing?
Mr. Trump told "60 Minutes" correspondent Leslie Stahl that his son in law had spoken to Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, and he indicated that in that conversation and all others between U.S. and Saudi officials, "they deny it every way you can imagine."
You have to be fucking kidding me.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by hepcat » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:14 am

You notice he never sends Barron on these sojourns. That's cause Barron ain't no fool! He don't stand for that shit!
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by LordMortis » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:16 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:05 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:02 am
Holman wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:40 am
The administration is bending over backwards to avoid making Khashoggi 's murder an issue.
Of course it is. We just signed a $110B defense deal with them last year that Trump still talks about and Kushner is probably still counting on them for bailouts.

Follow

The money.
And guess who is sitting down with the Saudis to discuss this thing?
Mr. Trump told "60 Minutes" correspondent Leslie Stahl that his son in law had spoken to Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, and he indicated that in that conversation and all others between U.S. and Saudi officials, "they deny it every way you can imagine."
You have to be fucking kidding me.

Trump's statement didn't bother me. It was the right non statement of possible condemnation to make.

This, *this* bothers me. This is par for the course and why I don't give him the benefit of the doubt even when he seemingly does the right thing out of the gate before actually, you know, acting on something.

Everything about that statement stinks and offends me and brings further shame on what it means to be me to be part of the US.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:16 am

hepcat wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:14 am
You notice he never sends Barron on these sojourns. That's cause Barron ain't no fool! He don't stand for that shit!
Barron wasn't like $2B in the hole either. Yet.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Holman » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:41 am



"He denies it. Anyway the Democrats are the real killers!"
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by stessier » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:04 am

LordMortis wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:16 am
Trump's statement didn't bother me. It was the right non statement of possible condemnation to make.
Have you actually seen it or just read. I saw the clip on John Oliver. It is way, way worse than any text does justice.
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by $iljanus » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:37 am

Donald “I :wub: autocrats “ Trump also said to reporters that “rogue killers” could be responsible. Sounds like he should get OJ on the case.
tl;dr

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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by hepcat » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:56 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:16 am
hepcat wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:14 am
You notice he never sends Barron on these sojourns. That's cause Barron ain't no fool! He don't stand for that shit!
Barron wasn't like $2B in the hole either. Yet.
His Pokemon habit may change that. :ninja:
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Re: The Semi-Official Death Watch of the 4th Estate Thread

Post by Chaz » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:56 am

Of course he sent Kush. He hasn't even nominated an ambassador. I suspect the thing is that he really wants Kush to continue being the point of contact, but can't nominate Kush because there's no way even this senate could confirm him.

Well, maybe they could. Things are bonkers.
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