Thread for 'Alt-Facts'

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:43 am

To be clear, I plan to include only verifiable, "pants on fire" level untruths, not anything that could be wiggled out of later as grey area misspeaks.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:20 am

This is not just a consequence of Trump's wish fulfillment. His Pastor Norman Vincent Peale was the author of The Power of Positive Thinking (1952) so "alternative facts" is a religious and philosophical mandate for Trump.

We have elevated lies to a whole new level, and this is Trump's achilles heel. And now America's problem.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:41 am

Zarathud wrote:This is not just a consequence of Trump's wish fulfillment. His Pastor Norman Vincent Peale was the author of The Power of Positive Thinking (1952) so "alternative facts" is a religious and philosophical mandate for Trump.

We have elevated lies to a whole new level, and this is Trump's achilles heel. And now America's problem.

I heard NPR do a piece on his relationship with Peale the other day, and was disappointed in their seeming conclusion of "well, he won, so maybe there's something to that!". I actually struggle mightily with this personally, because I am at heart quite the optimist, but also consider myself to be a critical thinker (mostly).

Those two things are often at odds, but IIRC (it's been a while since I read the book) the underlying idea of "the power of positive thinking" is not the same as Trump's "liberal media press claims that 2+2=4, but 2+2 is OBVIOUSLY 6, EVERYONE knows that, and BTW I'm the best at the math, so I should know, believe me" style of "optimism". Sad (for America, and maths).

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:57 am

There used to be a rule of thumb in the trade show industry that whenever an exhibitor or prospective exhibitor asked attendance figures, the promoter would take the real number and triple it. Perhaps I have more in common with Trump than I thought.

Another trick to make your attendance appear greater than it actually is:

Spoiler:

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:11 am

Crazed man penetrates WH security and gives press conference:

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz ... conference

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:50 am

Paingod wrote: The way it's intended and the way it's used are even Alternative Facts here. The White House press statement wasn't a different version of the same truth, it was flatly contradictory to the real truth. It's not a gray area you can fart around in. If the new lingo for "Nazi" is "Alt-Right", we should still call them Nazis. If the new lingo for "Lies" is "Alternative Facts" we should still call them lies.

You're missing the strategic branding opportunity here. Alt-Right, Alt-Facts... this Alt-Administration is merely marshalling forces.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:33 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Paingod wrote: The way it's intended and the way it's used are even Alternative Facts here. The White House press statement wasn't a different version of the same truth, it was flatly contradictory to the real truth. It's not a gray area you can fart around in. If the new lingo for "Nazi" is "Alt-Right", we should still call them Nazis. If the new lingo for "Lies" is "Alternative Facts" we should still call them lies.
You're missing the strategic branding opportunity here. Alt-Right, Alt-Facts... this Alt-Administration is merely marshalling forces.

Stay tuned for the Alt-Peace, Alt-Freedom, and Alt-Strength.

#Make Oceania Doubleplusgood Again!

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:43 am

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:49 am

Carpet_pissr wrote:

Good point.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:59 am

RunningMn9 wrote:+0.48% is soaring?

Then we're having a devastating crash right now, after the market came back down to earth after the great birth 1/20, the US experienced a cataclysmic event of 1/23 seeing them market dip as low as -0.55% or perhaps worse at lowest valley. Even as it struggles to climb, we've not seen lose like this since the last great crash of 1/19.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:02 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Paingod wrote: The way it's intended and the way it's used are even Alternative Facts here. The White House press statement wasn't a different version of the same truth, it was flatly contradictory to the real truth. It's not a gray area you can fart around in. If the new lingo for "Nazi" is "Alt-Right", we should still call them Nazis. If the new lingo for "Lies" is "Alternative Facts" we should still call them lies.
You're missing the strategic branding opportunity here. Alt-Right, Alt-Facts... this Alt-Administration is merely marshalling forces.

Now if only it would be come an unpleasant memory in history like the message boards at usenet

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:31 pm

Does this post from the soon to be defunded NPR count as alternative facts?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... t=20170122

No evidence exists so far that President Donald Trump or his elder daughter has taken steps to sever ties with their businesses, despite promises to do so by Inauguration Day, ProPublica has reported.

The independent nonprofit news service said it had contacted officials in some of the states where the Trumps do business, but found no evidence Trump has begun the process of transferring ownership of his companies to other family members. The newsroom noted on Friday:

Trump said at a Jan. 11 press conference that he and his daughter Ivanka have signed documents giving up control of all Trump-branded companies. Next to him on a table were stacks of documents he said transferred "complete and total control" of the companies to his sons Eric and Donald Jr. and another employee.

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:57 pm

Grifman wrote:Crazed man penetrates WH security and gives press conference:

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz ... conference

Borowitz wants to be the Onion really badly. And he is.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:29 pm

hepcat wrote:
Rip wrote:Stocks soared higher Friday on enthusiasm over Trump inauguration.
But when it falls, will you bring that up too?

I will.

Enough · Post by **Enough** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:32 pm

Alefroth wrote:
hepcat wrote:
Rip wrote:Stocks soared higher Friday on enthusiasm over Trump inauguration.
But when it falls, will you bring that up too?
I will.

The S&P are down around half a percent, is this when Rip tells us the market is cratering?

Enough · Post by **Enough** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:20 pm

Was it an alternative fact when Trump said he transferred control of his empire to his sons?

To transfer ownership of his biggest companies, Trump has to file a long list of documents in Florida, Delaware and New York. We asked officials in each of those states whether they have received the paperwork. As of 3:15 p.m. today, the officials said they have not.

Trump and his associates “are not doing what they said they would do,” said Richard Painter, the chief ethics lawyer for President George W. Bush. “And even that was completely inadequate.”

I guess this little bit of lip service to alternative ethics wasn't deemed important enough to get done before assuming the presidency.

Sudy · Post by **Sudy** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:28 pm

Paingod wrote:
Sudy Nym wrote:"Alternative facts" is a marvelously Orwellian soundbite when taken to mean "different truths". But without going back and watching the interview again, I feel that it was meant more as a synonym for "counterpoints". The majority of which, yes, have been determined to be false in this case. But that doesn't change the way in which the vocabulary was most likely intended.
The way it's intended and the way it's used are even Alternative Facts here. The White House press statement wasn't a different version of the same truth, it was flatly contradictory to the real truth. It's not a gray area you can fart around in.

I was never debating that Spicer's claims weren't outright incorrect. The whole Spicer briefing debacle is horrifying and I am terrified about the consequences. I just questioned whether Conway intentionally, knowingly used the term "Alternative Facts" to suggest that what Spicer said wasn't incorrect and was a separate, 100% factual "truth". I just took it as typical, slimy political misdirection.

At this point it's evidently a largely semantic discussion, and many of you seem to feel the administration's myriad other sins outweigh the possibility this was a gaffe. I don't disagree. I'm just concerned that if it's the least bit possible we're injecting context into this, we're guilty of the same embellishment we always accuse the opposition of. Accuracy and precision still matter.

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:38 pm

In Spicer's defense, I read a piece from a former WH press secretary (one of the Bushies, but I forget which one) who said that in that position, when PGOTUS orders you to stand in front of the press and tell them something, you better do it if you value your job.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:41 pm

tgb wrote:In Spicer's defense, I read a piece from a former WH press secretary (one of the Bushies, but I forget which one) who said that in that position, when PGOTUS orders you to stand in front of the press and tell them something, you better do it if you value your job.

I was going to reply with something about selling his soul when he made those statements, but I assume his soul was long gone or he wouldn't have been selected. Also, for some reason I keep typing sole.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:42 pm

Sudy Nym wrote:I just questioned whether Conway intentionally, knowingly used the term "Alternative Facts" to suggest that what Spicer said wasn't incorrect and was a separate, 100% factual "truth". I just took it as typical, slimy political misdirection.

It was absolutely a misdirection, and it was absolutely an attempt at deflection - with a statement geared to appeal to his supporters while degrading their trust in media. I think it was all of the above; a lie, a misdirection, and an attempt at a flanking maneuver. Somehow she nailed all three things at once.

Sudy Nym wrote:I'm just concerned that if it's the least bit possible we're injecting context into this, we're guilty of the same embellishment we always accuse the opposition of. Accuracy and precision still matter.

Follow-up articles give actual transit numbers that clearly dispute the White House's claims at the podium. So they lied, or at least had no idea what the reality was, while launching an attack at the media for reporting what was really happening. I think it's safe to say that in this case, and probably most others "Alternative Fact" means "Complete Horseshit".

Sudy · Post by **Sudy** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:43 pm

tgb wrote:In Spicer's defense, I read a piece from a former WH press secretary (one of the Bushies, but I forget which one) who said that in that position, when PGOTUS orders you to stand in front of the press and tell them something, you better do it if you value your job.

Understandable, but that doesn't exactly speak well of Spicer. In this situation, I'll jump on the bandwagon that escalation isn't a bad thing. Having someone more skilled at communicating Trump's warped message would be a negative.

Sudy · Post by **Sudy** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:48 pm

Paingod wrote:
Sudy Nym wrote:I'm just concerned that if it's the least bit possible we're injecting context into this, we're guilty of the same embellishment we always accuse the opposition of. Accuracy and precision still matter.
Follow-up articles give actual transit numbers that clearly dispute the White House's claims at the podium. So they lied, or at least had no idea what the reality was, while launching an attack at the media for lying and reporting what was really happening. I think it's safe to say that in this case, and probably most others "Alternative Fact" means "Complete Horseshit".

Absolutely. My argument has only ever been that I'm not convinced, form that statement alone, that Conway believes in such a thing as there being more than one "truth". The point everyone else is making is that Trump himself does at the very least, so it doesn't matter. Like you say, at best she unintentionally portrayed the truth. I get it.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:49 pm

This is just an attempt by the Trump Administration to speak the Truth.

Of course, in their language, it translates as PRAVDA!

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:52 pm

Sudy Nym wrote:I'm just concerned that if it's the least bit possible we're injecting context into this, we're guilty of the same embellishment we always accuse the opposition of. Accuracy and precision still matter.

I hear you, and actually am glad that you're waving the caution flag here, but for me it's not about semantics. The fact that his spokes-monster literally used such a silly phrase is simply one of many incidents that back up the position that Trump and his team go beyond even the stereotypical "lying politician" trope. Way way beyond.

Which is ironic/funny/sad considering "crooked" Hillary was such a meme for this honest Abe candidate. Wow.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:55 pm

Watching Spicer's presser - he already lied about 'historic' expansion of the Federal government. He also announced they are adding 'Skype' press seats. My guess this is to get alt-right people tied in.

Edit: Honestly - pretty routine press conference. He named every person Trump might have passed in a hallway but otherwise nothing wacky happened so far.

Edit 2: Ah no wonder it is so 'pleasant' so far. As someone on Twitter just said - he is calling on the soft ball tossers. NY Post, Foxnews, Christian Broadcasting Network, etc.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:03 pm

coopasonic wrote:
tgb wrote:In Spicer's defense, I read a piece from a former WH press secretary (one of the Bushies, but I forget which one) who said that in that position, when PGOTUS orders you to stand in front of the press and tell them something, you better do it if you value your job.
I was going to reply with something about selling his soul when he made those statements, but I assume his soul was long gone or he wouldn't have been selected. Also, for some reason I keep typing sole.

I'd say that his following that order may have shown he values his job way more than his integrity.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:13 pm

Spicer says he's never going to knowingly lie (but will use the best information they have available at the time)

And then he double downed on the inauguration being the most watched in history.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:13 pm

malchior wrote:Watching Spicer's presser

Now he's claiming that Trump's massive inauguration numbers are from every platform available, many of which either didn't exist or weren't as widely used. The world has become more interconnected year by year, and that makes Trump's inauguration historic? That's about as awesome as saying the $5 in my pocket is the best $5 ever, despite the fact that $1 in my pocket 20 years ago might have been worth what would be $10 now.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:14 pm

Spicer doubled down on the most watched inaugural line. He was prepared with streaming numbers - it sounds informed but still is just guessing.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:15 pm

The thing is, the press helped create this monster. Throughout the entire campaign, they would ridicule Trump for saying ridiculous things that weren't true, then they would allow him free airtime to spin doctor or misdirect entirely. They never really went as far as Todd did with Conway yesterday in pressuring for an explanation for an egregious lie, probably under the fear that doing so would get their circus tickets revoked.

According to Politifact, 84% of what he says is some sort of lie. For fuck's sake, when it was wet he claimed it was dry! You pretty much have to assume that everything he says is unfactual (only 4% of what he says is entirely truthful).

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:20 pm

Jeff V wrote:The thing is, the press helped create this monster.

The press would like you to forget this. Though I have seen an op ed apology here and there.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:21 pm

malchior wrote:Spicer doubled down on the most watched inaugural line. He was prepared with streaming numbers - it sounds informed but still is just guessing.

And then tried (successfully?) to pivot to the MLK bust issue (i.e. it's the press who are the dishonest ones).

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:22 pm

Ok - Spicer is off the rails. Described a 5-minute standing ovation for Trump at CIA. So flat out lying it will be.

Edit: Just wouldn't straightforwardly answer a question about Trump exaggerating the unemployment rate. He dissembled quite a bit about why stats mislead. Good grief.

Enough · Post by **Enough** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:29 pm

Jeff V wrote:The thing is, the press helped create this monster. Throughout the entire campaign, they would ridicule Trump for saying ridiculous things that weren't true, then they would allow him free airtime to spin doctor or misdirect entirely. They never really went as far as Todd did with Conway yesterday in pressuring for an explanation for an egregious lie, probably under the fear that doing so would get their circus tickets revoked.

According to Politifact, 84% of what he says is some sort of lie. For fuck's sake, when it was wet he claimed it was dry! You pretty much have to assume that everything he says is unfactual (only 4% of what he says is entirely truthful).

Well we should round up these "media" people and fix the problem, heh. Our media sucks because we have sucky taste (and the media business made a very bad bet on free online news). Cultivate the social capital to make strong investigative journalism cool and we might get somewhere. Getting all finger pointy with the press doesn't do much to get us where we need to be in the age of cratering journalism budgets and hedge fund-ran papers that need to do more than just be in the black.

I'm biased as one of my best friends is the editor of a city newspaper and his entry as a reporter and editor in the field was for all the right reasons, and he's got a great head for news. That said, the hedge fund that bought this former family paper is not cool with just being in the black, they need a formula met and that means firing all the experienced news people (especially editors, photographers and seasoned reporters that cost too much) and hiring green rookies. Coverage choice more than ever is not an editorial decision steeped in a love of good journalism, it's all about maximizing revenue.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:59 pm

Ultimately we, the people, are responsible. We're the ones who reward the media outlets with the flashiest headlines and the most buzzworthy celebrity stories. You can't totally blame them for capitalizing on our short attention spans and obsession with fame.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:07 pm

YellowKing wrote:Ultimately we, the people, are responsible. We're the ones who reward the media outlets with the flashiest headlines and the most buzzworthy celebrity stories. You can't totally blame them for capitalizing on our short attention spans and obsession with fame.

I will hand out special achievement awards to Fox News, Breitbart and the like for managing to create an audience predisposed to accept politicians' claims that the media is biased against them.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:37 pm

Bloomberg lets us in on the why's and wherefores:

First and most obviously, the leader wishes to mislead the public, and wants to have subordinates doing so, in part because many citizens won’t pursue fact-checking. But that’s the obvious explanation, and the truth runs much deeper.

By requiring subordinates to speak untruths, a leader can undercut their independent standing, including their standing with the public, with the media and with other members of the administration. That makes those individuals grow more dependent on the leader and less likely to mount independent rebellions against the structure of command. Promoting such chains of lies is a classic tactic when a leader distrusts his subordinates and expects to continue to distrust them in the future.

Another reason for promoting lying is what economists sometimes call loyalty filters. If you want to ascertain if someone is truly loyal to you, ask them to do something outrageous or stupid. If they balk, then you know right away they aren’t fully with you. That too is a sign of incipient mistrust within the ruling clique, and it is part of the same worldview that leads Trump to rely so heavily on family members...

...Trump specializes in lower-status lies, typically more of the bald-faced sort, namely stating “x” when obviously “not x” is the case. They are proclamations of power, and signals that the opinions of mainstream media and political opponents will be disregarded. The lie needs to be understood as more than just the lie. For one thing, a lot of Americans, especially many Trump supporters, are more comfortable with that style than with the “fancier” lies they believe they are hearing from the establishment. For another, joining the Trump coalition has been made costlier for marginal outsiders and ignoring the Trump coalition is now less likely for committed opponents. In other words, the Trump administration is itself sending loyalty signals to its supporters by burning its bridges with other groups.

These lower-status lies are also a short-run strategy. They represent a belief that a lot can be pushed through fairly quickly, bundled with some obfuscation of the truth, and that long-term credibility does not need to be maintained. Once we get past blaming Trump for various misdeeds, it’s worth taking a moment to admit we should be scared he might be right about that.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:41 pm

Federal Hiring Freeze Announcement

At a press conference today new White House press secretary Sean Spicer stated that the freeze was established because it "counters the dramatic expansion of the federal workforce in recent years." Just one problem: There has not been a dramatic expansion in the federal workforce in recent years. According to the latest Office of Personnel Management, the number of federal civilian employees stands at around 2.7 million, just about where it was in 1966. In fact, civilian federal employment is down from its 1990 peak of just under 3.1 million. Relatively speaking this means that in 1966 there was 1 federal employee per 70 citizens and now there is 1 per 121 citizens.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:24 pm

Moliere wrote:Federal Hiring Freeze Announcement

At a press conference today new White House press secretary Sean Spicer stated that the freeze was established because it "counters the dramatic expansion of the federal workforce in recent years." Just one problem: There has not been a dramatic expansion in the federal workforce in recent years. According to the latest Office of Personnel Management, the number of federal civilian employees stands at around 2.7 million, just about where it was in 1966. In fact, civilian federal employment is down from its 1990 peak of just under 3.1 million. Relatively speaking this means that in 1966 there was 1 federal employee per 70 citizens and now there is 1 per 121 citizens.

I'm glad reason.com isn't buying the BS.

Enough · Post by **Enough** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:00 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
Moliere wrote:Federal Hiring Freeze Announcement

At a press conference today new White House press secretary Sean Spicer stated that the freeze was established because it "counters the dramatic expansion of the federal workforce in recent years." Just one problem: There has not been a dramatic expansion in the federal workforce in recent years. According to the latest Office of Personnel Management, the number of federal civilian employees stands at around 2.7 million, just about where it was in 1966. In fact, civilian federal employment is down from its 1990 peak of just under 3.1 million. Relatively speaking this means that in 1966 there was 1 federal employee per 70 citizens and now there is 1 per 121 citizens.
I'm glad reason.com isn't buying the BS.

It's not just a hiring freeze, they are going to go after basic scientific research.

At the Department of Energy, it would roll back funding for nuclear physics and advanced scientific computing research to 2008 levels, eliminate the Office of Electricity, eliminate the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy and scrap the Office of Fossil Energy, which focuses on technologies to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.

But I'm sure once free of pesky government regulation the private sector will pick up the slack no prob, erm right guys?