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The Trump budget thread

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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Smoove_B » Thu May 25, 2017 7:36 am

Once again, people that are potentially impacted are suddenly concerned over Trump budget:
Shockey is on Supplemental Security Income (SSI), a program to help low-income Americans who are disabled. The monthly payment is just over $700 a month.

"It's my only income," Shockey told CNNMoney in the fall, when we first met her at Diner 23 in Waverly, a small town in southern Ohio that's seen better days. "I couldn't live" without it.

She was stunned to hear the president wants to downsize SSI. She hadn't heard about it until CNNMoney called her.

When releasing Trump's budget Tuesday, the White House hailed it as a "taxpayer first" plan. Trump's goal is to get millions of people off welfare and into full-time jobs. For Shockey, that won't be easy.

"There's no way I could go back to work," Shockey said this week. "I've got a lot of problems. I'm crippled in my feet, knees, back, hands."
But this one is actually my favorite:
William Owens is a pastor in Beattyville. He's the type of person who pitches in wherever he's needed. In addition to leading a church and youth center, he's also a volunteer fire chief and chairman of the local school board.

Owens, a Trump supporter, said the president just wants the states and local governments to have more control over how welfare money is spent.
More control over how welfare money is spent? Is that code for making sure only poor white people get the money?

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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Grifman » Thu May 25, 2017 11:30 am

Smoove_B wrote:More control over how welfare money is spent? Is that code for making sure only poor white people get the money?
I'm no fan of Trump's budget but Smoove, that is really unfair. There's no indication of any racial animus to that man, and the article also notes he is deeply involved in working with the poor in his area:
Pastor Owens has made it his life's mission to lift people out of poverty. He runs the Kentucky Mountain Mission, which has a bowling alley and gym where a lot of teens hang out after school. He can see both sides of the debate on government aid.
Your insinuation is totally unfair and not based upon any evidence.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by malchior » Thu May 25, 2017 11:32 am

Maybe unfair to the man but very fair to the history of that type of policy approach.

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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Smoove_B » Thu May 25, 2017 11:46 am

Grifman wrote:Your insinuation is totally unfair and not based upon any evidence.
Possibly. All I know is that once you start asking people to clarify their opinions, they seem to get oddly specific about these things. In this situation it's not the amount of money helping people that's the problem, it's how the money is being spent on people. The article indicates:
What Owens is referring to is the thinking of Mick Mulvaney, Trump's budget director. A former state lawmaker in South Carolina, Mulvaney is a big believer that states are better at crafting safety net programs than the federal government.

"We would see this program come down from Washington with all of these instructions on how to use it, and say, goodness gracious, this won't work in South Carolina," Mulvaney said.
What instructions are they referring to? Further information from Owens:
He grew up in an extremely poor family as one of 14 kids. They got "about $300 a month" in Social Security because his father was disabled and couldn't work. He works with families today that truly need the aid, but he also sees some that get dependent on it.

"I think some of it should go away," he told CNNMoney in January when we visited him. "I believe in a hand up and not a hand out."
Some of it should go away, seemingly "hand outs", suggesting he believes that people that are able to work should - and that perhaps his state should be deciding who gets the money based on their local evaluation of work fitness? When we live in a country that has certain states systematically crafting laws against bathroom use, marriages and voting rights you'll forgive me if I don't believe that old white men in Kentucky will be looking out for the minority populations in their state currently receiving some type of financial benefit through a safety net program.

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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Grifman » Thu May 25, 2017 12:35 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Grifman wrote:Your insinuation is totally unfair and not based upon any evidence.
Possibly.
No "possibly" about it. You have no evidence, zilch, nada, none whatsoever. All you have is suppositions on your part. You can't point to anything the pastor said of a racial nature.
All I know is that once you start asking people to clarify their opinions, they seem to get oddly specific about these things.
Sure, but you can point to no such specificity in the article.
In this situation it's not the amount of money helping people that's the problem, it's how the money is being spent on people.
None of which has anything with deciding that there is a racial issue involved.
Some of it should go away, seemingly "hand outs", suggesting he believes that people that are able to work should - and that perhaps his state should be deciding who gets the money based on their local evaluation of work fitness?
And there's nothing racial there either. The pastor works in a mountain community which I suspect is largely white. His opinions are largely informed by what he sees in his largely white community. If he's calling for changes because of abuses he sees, it's abuses of a largely white community.
When we live in a country that has certain states systematically crafting laws against bathroom use, marriages and voting rights you'll forgive me if I don't believe that old white men in Kentucky will be looking out for the minority populations in their state currently receiving some type of financial benefit through a safety net program.
You can believe what you want. But we're not talking about what you believe. We're talking about whether there is any evidence, any reasonable warrant for belief in a racial animus in anything the pastor said, not what state legislatures may or may not do. So far, you've provided no such evidence. Right now, IMO, you're a perfect example of a mirror image of so many conservatives that I come across - believing what you want regardless of whether the facts support you or not. Right now I don't see much difference.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by RunningMn9 » Thu May 25, 2017 12:50 pm

Grifman wrote:But we're not talking about what you believe. We're talking about whether there is any evidence
To be fair, he is talking about what he believes (and he seems to clearly be talking about what he believes). You are talking about whether there is any evidence. There's no "we" in this conversation yet. :)
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Smoove_B » Thu May 25, 2017 12:50 pm

Grifman wrote:You can believe what you want. But we're not talking about what you believe. We're talking about whether there is any evidence, any reasonable warrant for belief in a racial animus in anything the pastor said, not what state legislatures may or may not do. So far, you've provided no such evidence. Right now, IMO, you're a perfect example of a mirror image of so many conservatives that I come across - believing what you want regardless of whether the facts support you or not. Right now I don't see much difference.
Which is why I stared my observations wondering if this was all "code" for racial discrimination. The pastor in question is part of the "poorest white town in America" - quoted directly from the article. I don't think it's a stretch to think that there's some animosity over poor white people not receiving the aid they need because poor minority folks are scamming the system to get handouts. Did he (or anyone) from this article say it? No. Is this a sentiment that has been expressed since last year's election started ramping up? Absolutely. Now that cuts are actually being threatened across the boards and the "poorest white town in America" is likely to feel the impacts, suddenly voting for Trump seems like a questionable move to those that did because they are now also going to feel the sting of the cuts - not just the poor minorities that were being spoken of in code during the election campaign. That's all I'm pointing out here.

My beliefs weren't formed in a vacuum. To suggest social safety net programs haven't been the target of racial discrimination by way of "fiscal conservatism" seems off to me.

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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by LordMortis » Thu May 25, 2017 1:00 pm

Smoove_B wrote:My beliefs weren't formed in a vacuum. To suggest social safety net programs haven't been the target of racial discrimination by way of "fiscal conservatism" seems off to me.
I don't think the sentiment is generically racial. I think it's generically xenophobic. American benefits are being given foreigners and their foreigner kids who are abusing a system that wasn't designed for them.

That might be non vacuum of a Detroit area person vs the non vacuum of a New Jesian though. Race never comes up nor is it even implied from where I sit. But given the chance to expound, nationality always does. Now, what is implied in the nationality, is a sort of ethnicity but I don't have the stomach to try and pull that out of any conversation I'm held hostage in. But the problem with welfare is them coming to the US and stealing it, and finding ways to bring their entire families so they can steal benefits we are providing.

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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Grifman » Thu May 25, 2017 1:03 pm

I just think you ought to have some evidence before you go insinuating someone is a racist. But maybe you're ok accusing people of things without any proof, all based upon your presuppositions. Using your reasoning I guess I can just assume that maybe you're belief is based upon religious hatred. After all, questioning whether a pastor is racist or not without any evidence seems to fit my assumptions regarding those who aren't religious. How's that work for you? :)
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by RunningMn9 » Thu May 25, 2017 1:03 pm

Smoove_B wrote:I don't believe that old white men in Kentucky will be looking out for the minority populations in their state
Assuming the good pastor is speaking out about his experiences in his town/county, I can assure you that he is talking about white people. There aren't any minorities (the county is 95+% white). It's also one of the poorest counties in the US with 35% of its population living in poverty.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Smoove_B » Thu May 25, 2017 1:08 pm

Grifman wrote:After all, questioning whether a pastor is racist or not without any evidence seems to fit my assumptions regarding those who aren't religious. How's that work for you? :)
He's also a volunteer fire chief and chairman of the local school board. I will further clarify that the quotes he's provided and my observations and musings on what he's shared have nothing to do with invisible sky kings, combustible materials and/or the common core standards. :wink:

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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by noxiousdog » Thu May 25, 2017 4:41 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Which is why I stared my observations wondering if this was all "code" for racial discrimination. The pastor in question is part of the "poorest white town in America" - quoted directly from the article. I don't think it's a stretch to think that there's some animosity over poor white people not receiving the aid they need because poor minority folks are scamming the system to get handouts. Did he (or anyone) from this article say it? No. Is this a sentiment that has been expressed since last year's election started ramping up? Absolutely. Now that cuts are actually being threatened across the boards and the "poorest white town in America" is likely to feel the impacts, suddenly voting for Trump seems like a questionable move to those that did because they are now also going to feel the sting of the cuts - not just the poor minorities that were being spoken of in code during the election campaign. That's all I'm pointing out here.

My beliefs weren't formed in a vacuum. To suggest social safety net programs haven't been the target of racial discrimination by way of "fiscal conservatism" seems off to me.
I think it's just the opposite. Most people I know against "government handouts" have their opinions formed by their own family who are burdens on society.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Blackhawk » Thu May 25, 2017 5:37 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Once again, people that are potentially impacted are suddenly concerned over Trump budget:
I have been acutely aware of Trump's desire to eviscerate disability (SSD along with SSI.) It has kept me up at night. Literally.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Smoove_B » Thu May 25, 2017 6:09 pm

noxiousdog wrote:I think it's just the opposite. Most people I know against "government handouts" have their opinions formed by their own family who are burdens on society.
While not all that useful, the extended family members I've been listening to since last year that have been railing against "ticks and leeches" don't have any personal experience with family members that are burdens to society in any capacity - either directly or indirectly.

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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by RunningMn9 » Thu May 25, 2017 6:30 pm

I think that's an important distinction. If you don't have any direct experience, you target the Other. If you have direct experience, you target that.
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Make up bags of change
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Smoove_B » Thu May 25, 2017 6:38 pm

I should also point out that the people I've heard with the loudest opinions on this issue are (1) white (2) retired or semi-retired and (3) independently wealthy.

As stated better elsewhere, "I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party."

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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Holman » Thu May 25, 2017 7:02 pm

There's a movement among right-wing Evangelicals to create a private religious social safety net to replace the government's net. This means volunteer medical and dental clinics, counseling, skills training, and similar programs run privately through churches (usually but not always mega-churches) and their donors. My parents (and what would have been my inheritance) have been devoted to these kinds of projects for 10 or 15 years now.

Admission to these programs doesn't require prior membership in the churches supporting them. Instead, the support is means towards recruitment/conversion and a greater social authority for religious groups.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by RunningMn9 » Thu May 25, 2017 7:24 pm

I noticed commercials on SiriusXM lately for Christian health insurance, based on biblical principles (so you know you aren't paying for sins). It's a creepy f-ing commercial.

Which reminds me - when I listen to conservative talk shows, why are 90% of the commercials for firms specializing in either helping you deal with the IRS when they come after you for the taxes you aren't paying or to let me know that the credit card companies that I owe $30k to are lying when they say I have to pay my debts? WTF is that all about?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Holman » Thu May 25, 2017 7:27 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:Which reminds me - when I listen to conservative talk shows, why are 90% of the commercials for firms specializing in either helping you deal with the IRS when they come after you for the taxes you aren't paying or to let me know that the credit card companies that I owe $30k to are lying when they say I have to pay my debts? WTF is that all about?
People in debt are often financially ignorant, and the financially ignorant are the best targets for scams.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by MonkeyFinger » Thu May 25, 2017 11:00 pm

Holman wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:Which reminds me - when I listen to conservative talk shows, why are 90% of the commercials for firms specializing in either helping you deal with the IRS when they come after you for the taxes you aren't paying or to let me know that the credit card companies that I owe $30k to are lying when they say I have to pay my debts? WTF is that all about?
People in debt are often financially ignorant, and the financially ignorant are the best targets for scams.
Speaking of what that's about: I helped scam people who owed taxes. It was the most dishonest time of my life.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:23 pm

2020
President Trump proposed a $4.7 trillion budget plan Monday that stands as a sharp challenge to Congress and the Democrats trying to unseat him, the first act in a multi-front struggle over the role of government that threatens to consume Washington for the next 18 months.

The budget proposal dramatically raises the possibility of another government shutdown in October, with the inclusion of an additional $8.6 billion to build sections of a wall along the U. S.-Mexico border. Trump’s ask for yet more wall money — beyond the spending he is already seeking under a “national emergency” declaration at the border — infuriated Democrats.

The budget also calls for a significant increase in military spending, causing problems with some Republicans who are uneasy about how it is allocated. If lawmakers and Trump don’t reach a spending agreement by the end of September, many government operations will grind to a halt.

Trump’s “Budget for a Better America” also includes dozens of spending cuts and policy overhauls that frame the early stages of the debate for the 2020 election. For example, Trump calls for a series of changes that would reduce total spending on the program by roughly $845 billion over 10 years for Medicare, the popular health care program for the elderly that in the past he had largely said he would protect.

His budget would also propose a major overhaul of Medicaid, the health care program for low-income Americans run jointly with states, by turning more power over to states. This would cut spending by $241 billion over 10 years.

Other agencies, particularly the Environmental Protection Agency, State Department, Transportation Department, Education Department and Interior Department, would see their budgets severely reduced. The Commerce Department budget would increase in preparation for the 2020 Census — but Democrats said the Census money was insufficient.
...
More broadly, Trump’s budget would impose mandatory work-requirements for millions of people who receive welfare assistance while dramatically increasing the defense budget to $750 billion next year, a 5 percent increase from 2019.

Trump and other Republicans have said the federal budget is full of waste and bloat, arguing many federal agencies could still function with less taxpayer money. And though they have proposed budget cuts before, only to be rejected by Congress, the president’s top advisers want to dig in on the cuts this year, convinced Americans will support them.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by hepcat » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:26 pm

The fact that his moron supporters aren't crying out "Why are we paying for the wall when you told us repeatedly that Mexico was!?" is proof enough that they're blindly worshiping the asshole. He'll get all their votes in 2020 again. They can't be taught...period.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:36 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:23 pm
Washington for the next 18 months.

Never in my life have I viewed nearly half a first term as a lame-duck-at-best exercise where nothing at all getting done is the best possible outcome.

On the up side, never in my life have I viewed the next president as an inevitable upgrade. No matter who he, she, or it (space alien, jelly donut, hologram 2-Pac, etc) is. I can only pray that it happens in 18 months (or more like 22?).
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:41 pm

Reducing the budget of the state department. This guy is determined to submarine the US on the world stage.

He's cutting holes in the boat of America while half the passengers are cheering him on because the other half are terrified and screaming about wanting to live.

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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:46 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:41 pm
Reducing the budget of the state department. This guy is determined to submarine the US on the world stage.
Having gutted the State Dept of both experience and talent, reducing the budget is kind of a denouement. I mean there are only so many cronies and/or their deadbeat kids that you can payroll.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Paingod » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:24 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:46 pm
I mean there are only so many cronies and/or their deadbeat kids that you can payroll.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by Jaymann » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:13 pm

Older Americans are known to be fond of their Medicare (and they vote). The Dems should pound this Thor's hammer.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by TheMix » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:14 pm

Jaymann wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:13 pm
Older Americans are known to be fond of their Medicare (and they vote). The Dems should pound this Thor's hammer.
Exactly what I was thinking. (Though without the awesome Thor reference. :) )

Plus, aren't a lot of Trump's supporters in that category? Seems like an odd move.
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Re: The Trump budget thread

Post by The Meal » Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:05 pm

Hologram 2Pac 2020

Not a pathological narcissist.

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