Kraken wrote:I suspect that it was chosen mainly to intimidate, or possibly just to emphasize that there's a new sheriff in town. But it's not like I know jack about it.
If I had ordered that to be dropped there, it would be as a warning to potential enemies that this particular weapon was now part of our response. North Korea for example now has seen something new. We dropped on a bomb that we've never used in combat before on another country.
I realize we aren't going to fly a transport plane over NK to drop one of these there, but that wouldn't be the point. The point would be that ANY non nuclear weapon we can field will be used if needed.
What value a display like this has depends on the people receiving the message. Sometimes people won't believe you'll really do anything until you really do something. Sometimes you get lucky and they decide it's best to not find out if you'll really do something.
Kraken wrote:I suspect that it was chosen mainly to intimidate, or possibly just to emphasize that there's a new sheriff in town. But it's not like I know jack about it.
If I had ordered that to be dropped there, it would be as a warning to potential enemies that this particular weapon was now part of our response. North Korea for example now has seen something new. We dropped on a bomb that we've never used in combat before on another country.
I realize we aren't going to fly a transport plane over NK to drop one of these there, but that wouldn't be the point. The point would be that ANY non nuclear weapon we can field will be used if needed.
What value a display like this has depends on the people receiving the message. Sometimes people won't believe you'll really do anything until you really do something. Sometimes you get lucky and they decide it's best to not find out if you'll really do something.
And sometimes you just want a really big explosion that generates a massive overpressure shockwave that propagates through a cave/tunnel complex and kills the bad hombres by rupturing their lungs.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
Max Peck wrote:And sometimes you just want a really big explosion that generates a massive overpressure shockwave that propagates through a cave/tunnel complex and kills the bad hombres by rupturing their lungs.
As noted by those that seem to know things, this isn't a particularly good bomb for bunker/tunnel busting.
In any case, I don't see what sort of message this sends. We can send this one bomb instead of 2 Daisy Cutters? Is that really going to strike fear into the hearts of our enemies? As I said, I don't really care at all that we dropped this bomb on these shitheads (if it truly was the best tool to achieve their objectives). But I fail to see why this is such an impressive display of power.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
I've seen two messages I guess:
1) We don't really care what else we blow up anymore, we're going to blow you up and anything near you.
2) We are willing to use any tool in the arsenal, and aren't going to be so careful and precise that we put out own troops at excessive risk.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
Max Peck wrote:And sometimes you just want a really big explosion that generates a massive overpressure shockwave that propagates through a cave/tunnel complex and kills the bad hombres by rupturing their lungs.
As noted by those that seem to know things, this isn't a particularly good bomb for bunker/tunnel busting.
I didn't mention bunker busting, did I?
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
Max Peck wrote:I didn't mention bunker busting, did I?
No, but the people that dropped the bomb did. It's not a particularly effective tool for attacking hardened bunkers and tunnels. Which makes it somewhat of a curious weapon to use to attack a hardened bunker/tunnel system. Either way, that's probably a moot point, because I have no idea what their actual operational objective was.
I'm just a bit surprised at the reaction people are having to dropping this bomb. They are treating it like we dropped Tsar Bomba. And I'd be interested in a link explaining the effect you did directly reference - because the point of an air burst bomb is to direct a great deal of the energy out to the sides (rather than into the ground or up into the air). With all the energy going up and out, I'd be curious how much energy goes down into the ground, and how deeply it penetrates the rock before losing energy. To ask it a different way - what sort of lethality range does it have underground?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
The U.S. is prepared to launch a preemptive strike with conventional weapons against North Korea should officials become convinced that North Korea is about to follow through with a nuclear weapons test, multiple senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News.
North Korea has warned that a "big event" is near, and U.S. officials say signs point to a nuclear test that could come as early as this weekend.
Max Peck wrote:I didn't mention bunker busting, did I?
No, but the people that dropped the bomb did. It's not a particularly effective tool for attacking hardened bunkers and tunnels. Which makes it somewhat of a curious weapon to use to attack a hardened bunker/tunnel system. Either way, that's probably a moot point, because I have no idea what their actual operational objective was.
I'm just a bit surprised at the reaction people are having to dropping this bomb. They are treating it like we dropped Tsar Bomba. And I'd be interested in a link explaining the effect you did directly reference - because the point of an air burst bomb is to direct a great deal of the energy out to the sides (rather than into the ground or up into the air). With all the energy going up and out, I'd be curious how much energy goes down into the ground, and how deeply it penetrates the rock before losing energy. To ask it a different way - what sort of lethality range does it have underground?
I was speculating that there might have been tactical considerations that convinced the people on the ground that this approach was worth trying, but I don't know enough about the target site to say what the factors would be, specifically. I doubt that a group of insurgents are actually hanging out in a hardened bunker as opposed to something like a natural cave system in mountainous terrain that is difficult to attack with more conventional approachs. If, for example, they're in caves opening into a canyon with a mountain over their heads, a really big boom delivered right to their doorstep wouldn't need to punch through the top of the mountain to get at them, and at a minimum would clear away surface defenses. Even if the blast pressure didn't kill them, collapsing the entrance might be enough to neutralize them.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
RunningMn9 wrote: To ask it a different way - what sort of lethality range does it have underground?
Well, as something that's been sitting around in mothballs since 2003, what better way to find out than to use it? The military released aerial footage of the strike, available now on Youtube (instead of a bar 3000 miles away).
Afghan officials said 36 ISIS fighters were killed when the US dropped the so-called "mother of all bombs."
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
As originally conceived, the MOAB was to be used against large formations of troops and equipment or hardened above-ground bunkers. The target set has also been expanded to include targets buried under softer surfaces, like caves or tunnels.
AAR:
The blast destroyed three underground tunnels as well as weapons and ammunition, but no civilians were hurt, Afghan and US officials have said.
The US military previously estimated ISIS had 600 to 800 active fighters in the area, but was unclear whether they had hoped to strike more fighters.
To the extent political and not operational considerations were a determining factor, isn't it clear that dropping the MOAB was done for domestic media purposes?
From what I've read, it's nothing but a really, really big bomb with 11 tons of explosives packed in. It doesn't represent any new technological breakthrough (and it was around since 2003 I think) or military capability, so I can't see how it's going to have much of an impact on foreign powers.
Seems to me that the only thing the MOAB really has going for it is a catchy name that the media would be sure to latch on to. And, predictably, all I've heard for the past 48 hours is MOAB this and "Mother of all Bombs" that. The coverage has been incessant and way out of proportion to the actual newsworthiness of the event. Way to go media!
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After his evening prayers, Mohammad Shahzadah closed the house gates and sat down for dinner. Then the blast came, engulfing the sky in flames and sending tremors through the ground.
“The earth felt like a boat in a storm,” Shahzadah said. “I thought my house was being bombed. Last year a drone strike targeted a house next to mine, but this time it felt like the heavens were falling. The children and women were very scared.”
The US dropped its largest non-nuclear bomb ever used in combat on eastern Afghanistan on Thursday in another dramatic show of military force by the Trump administration.
The GBU-43/B, colloquially known as the “mother of all bombs” or MOAB, targeted tunnels and bunkers in Achin district in Nangarhar province, built by fighters loyal to Islamic State who also kept prisoners there.
A GPS-guided demolition bomb with an 11-ton (US) yield of explosives, it explodes above ground with a radius of over a mile.
The bomb was dropped in the mountains close to Moman village in an area called Asadkhel. About 1.5 miles away, in Shaddle Bazar where Shahzadah lives, the impact was palpable.
“My ears were deaf for a while. My windows and doors are broken. There are cracks in the walls,” he said.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
The U.S. is prepared to launch a preemptive strike with conventional weapons against North Korea should officials become convinced that North Korea is about to follow through with a nuclear weapons test, multiple senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News.
North Korea has warned that a "big event" is near, and U.S. officials say signs point to a nuclear test that could come as early as this weekend.
With the world on edge after reports that the US and North Korea are on the verge of war, North Korea has threatened "nuclear thunderbolts" at the first sign of a US preemptive strike, while also slamming China for cooperating with the West, according to NK News.
Grifman wrote:We are not going to launch a strike without approval of South Korea, and they will never approve it. The risks to them are too great.
Have you forgotten who has his finger over the big, shiny, tempting, delicious red button? I know he's a masterful diplomat and cunning strategist, but I don't know if he has the reserve to stay his hand now that he knows "Boom = Great Press"
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2021-01-20: The first good night's sleep I had in 4 years.
Trump has almost managed to guarantee either (a) a dramatic humiliation as we back down in the face of North Korean threats, or (b) the obliteration of Seoul and maybe Tokyo.
We're one or two steps away from having no third option.
Kurth wrote:To the extent political and not operational considerations were a determining factor, isn't it clear that dropping the MOAB was done for domestic media purposes?
From what I've read, it's nothing but a really, really big bomb with 11 tons of explosives packed in. It doesn't represent any new technological breakthrough (and it was around since 2003 I think) or military capability, so I can't see how it's going to have much of an impact on foreign powers.
Seems to me that the only thing the MOAB really has going for it is a catchy name that the media would be sure to latch on to. And, predictably, all I've heard for the past 48 hours is MOAB this and "Mother of all Bombs" that. The coverage has been incessant and way out of proportion to the actual newsworthiness of the event. Way to go media!
1000x this. After listen to Brian Williams talk about how "beautiful" the tomahawks are climbing off into the night and now seeing 48 hours of explosive death porn MOAB bullshit I'm fairly disgusted.
Edit: I also understand that unfortunately violence, or war, is a necessity to protect vital national interests, and that sometimes a small evil must happen to prevent larger evil. I'm not an idealist, really. But this idea of actual killing as entertainment - not just drama or movies or games that simulate it - but the actual taking of lives as fodder for entertainment, just really sickens me.
Kurth wrote:To the extent political and not operational considerations were a determining factor, isn't it clear that dropping the MOAB was done for domestic media purposes?
From what I've read, it's nothing but a really, really big bomb with 11 tons of explosives packed in. It doesn't represent any new technological breakthrough (and it was around since 2003 I think) or military capability, so I can't see how it's going to have much of an impact on foreign powers.
Seems to me that the only thing the MOAB really has going for it is a catchy name that the media would be sure to latch on to. And, predictably, all I've heard for the past 48 hours is MOAB this and "Mother of all Bombs" that. The coverage has been incessant and way out of proportion to the actual newsworthiness of the event. Way to go media!
1000x this. After listen to Brian Williams talk about how "beautiful" the tomahawks are climbing off into the night and now seeing 48 hours of explosive death porn MOAB bullshit I'm fairly disgusted.
Edit: I also understand that unfortunately violence, or war, is a necessity to protect vital national interests, and that sometimes a small evil must happen to prevent larger evil. I'm not an idealist, really. But this idea of actual killing as entertainment - not just drama or movies or games that simulate it - but the actual taking of lives as fodder for entertainment, just really sickens me.
Yep, it's shock and awe all over again.
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Grifman wrote:We are not going to launch a strike without approval of South Korea, and they will never approve it. The risks to them are too great.
Have you forgotten who has his finger over the big, shiny, tempting, delicious red button? I know he's a masterful diplomat and cunning strategist, but I don't know if he has the reserve to stay his hand now that he knows "Boom = Great Press"
Yes, but he has generals and diplomats who will tell him otherwise. I doubt that Trump will stand alone and be willing to take the heat when it is learned that everyone advised against it, including South Korea, the country we are supposed to be allies with and are protecting. I just don't think he's that stupid.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Trump has almost managed to guarantee either (a) a dramatic humiliation as we back down in the face of North Korean threats, or (b) the obliteration of Seoul and maybe Tokyo.
Cities are very difficult to "obliterate". The NK can't put a nuke on a missile so Tokyo is out. Seoul is 3 milies from the border which puts it out of range of most artillery. So that leaves mostly rockets and missiles. It's a lot harder than you think:
Scale it all the way back to "decimated" and it's still unacceptable.
At least Mar-a-Lago is safe. Trump is there again this weekend, and (according to a WSJ reporter's tweet) the only NSC member he has with him is unqualified embarrassment K.T. McFarland.
Grifman wrote:Seoul is 3 milies from the border which puts it out of range of most artillery.
I assume that's a typo? 3 miles is well within the range of all artillery.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
NK has massed very large artillery capable of doing huge damage to Seoul. It has always been assumed that the first moment of any attack would be the largest barrage in history suddenly plastering the city and the crucial airbases nearby.
Trump has almost managed to guarantee either (a) a dramatic humiliation as we back down in the face of North Korean threats, or (b) the obliteration of Seoul and maybe Tokyo.
Cities are very difficult to "obliterate". The NK can't put a nuke on a missile so Tokyo is out. Seoul is 3 milies from the border which puts it out of range of most artillery. So that leaves mostly rockets and missiles. It's a lot harder than you think:
London got hit by thousands of V1/V2's during WW2 and it wasn't close to being obliterated. Cities are just hard to kill.
from your article:
First, there's the unfortunate geography—the opponents' capitals are just 120 miles apart, with Seoul within 35 miles of the border. The numbers only get worse, with estimates of as many as 13,000 artillery pieces positioned along that border, many of them within range and presumably aimed directly at Seoul, one of the world's most densely-populated cities.
Ok, so that was a typo. 35 miles on the other hand - I'm not aware of too many types of artillery with that kind of range.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
The biggest artillery pieces we deal with at work are the M777 and M109A6 (Paladin). Those are both 155mm howitzers and even using rocket assisted rounds you are only getting to about 18 miles. Of course those are both pretty mobile (the Paladin is a vehicle).
Maybe they've got giant fixed position artillery of the sort we don't bother using anymore?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
RunningMn9 wrote:The biggest artillery pieces we deal with at work are the M777 and M109A6 (Paladin). Those are both 155mm howitzers and even using rocket assisted rounds you are only getting to about 18 miles. Of course those are both pretty mobile (the Paladin is a vehicle).
Maybe they've got giant fixed position artillery of the sort we don't bother using anymore?
The largest self-propelled artillery piece they have appears to be the 170mm M-1978/M-1989 Koksan, reportedly with a max range of 60km using a RAP.
The M1989 Koksan was a further development of the M1978 Koksan. It carries the same 170mm Soviet Costal Gun mounted on a new chassis which can carry 12 on-board rounds. Both M1989 and M1978 are located over the DMZ these vehicles were designed to hit Seoul from the DMZ. The M1989 was introduced in 1983 and presented a lengthened chassis with a front cabin reminiscent of the Soviet 2S7 Pion.
According to one report, a South Korean security analyst suggested that DPRK artillery pieces of calibers 170mm and 240mm "could fire 10,000 rounds per minute to Seoul and its environs." The number of Koksan guns is not publicly reported, but it is reliably reported that North Korea has about 500 long-range artillery tubes within range of Seoul, double the levels of a the mid-1990s. Large caliber self propelled artillery pieces typically have a sustained rate of fire of between four and eight rounds per minute. This suggests a total rate of fire of artillery alone of between 2,000 and 4,000 rounds per minute. The DPRK's two hundred 240mm MRLs fire either 12 or 22 rounds, providing a maximum single salvo of no more than 4,400 rounds.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
Impressive. And not just the range. A sustained rate of fire between 4 and 8 rounds per minute is ludicrous. That's as fast or faster than the max sustained rate of fire on our 120mm mortars (8 rpm for the first minute, then 4 rpm sustained). The heat generated at that rate must be incredible. That's two to four times faster than the M777 (which can fire faster under duress, but not for very long).
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
RunningMn9 wrote:Impressive. And not just the range. A sustained rate of fire between 4 and 8 rounds per minute is ludicrous. That's as fast or faster than the max sustained rate of fire on our 120mm mortars (8 rpm for the first minute, then 4 rpm sustained). The heat generated at that rate must be incredible. That's two to four times faster than the M777 (which can fire faster under duress, but not for very long).
That rate of fire seems like an exaggerated worst case scenario -- that part of the article seems to be trying to make the point that the often cited 10k rpm into Seoul isn't feasible. Other sources I found put the rate of fire for the Koksan at about 1-2 rounds per 5 minutes.
Actually, it appears that the same source says 1-2 rounds per 5 minutes.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
Max Peck wrote:Actually, it appears that the same source says 1-2 rounds per 5 minutes.
That makes a lot more sense.
The 8 rpm might just be the first minute. That's always much higher than the sustained rate. I think the Paladin vehicle is like 2 rounds every 3 minutes or something. But when you are firing that far, that's an awful lot of propellant you are igniting in the tube - even with a RAP round. That's gotta be impressive to watch fire.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
