The Trump foreign policy thread

[Isgrimnur]

Vox

Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), a longtime opponent of “endless wars,” just blocked a resolution condemning President Donald Trump’s decision to withdraw American troops from northern Syria.

“I object to this resolution because it does nothing to fix this problem,” Paul said, while pushing his own bill to stop arms sales to Turkey. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer had called for the Senate to consider a vote on this resolution, which passed the House with a bipartisan 354-60 majority on Wednesday, with the goal of sending Trump a message about Congress’s disapproval of his recent actions.

[malchior]

It is really hard to believe his neighbor beat him up.

[Smoove_B]

At this point, the only thing that would actually surprise me it to learn that elected GOP officials aren't regularly receiving suitcases of cash from foreign nations.

[Drazzil]

Mulvaney brashly admits quid pro quo over Ukraine aid as key details emerge

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/17/politi ... cnn.com%2F

[Remus West]

Mulvaney brashly admits quid pro quo over Ukraine aid as key details emerge

https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/17/politi ... cnn.com%2F

I feel an odd sense of deja vu here. Almost like I've read this post before. and before.

[$iljanus]

BBC

Turkish presidential sources told BBC Turkish: "President Erdogan received the letter, thoroughly rejected it and put it in the bin."
...
Donald Trump's mixture of threats and locker-room banter infuriated Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. His staff told the BBC that he threw the letter into the bin and launched the Syrian operation the same day. That could be proof there was no Trumpian green light.

I think that perceived weakness giving confidence that there would be little if any repercussions can be a green light as well.

[El Guapo]

BBC

Turkish presidential sources told BBC Turkish: "President Erdogan received the letter, thoroughly rejected it and put it in the bin."
...
Donald Trump's mixture of threats and locker-room banter infuriated Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. His staff told the BBC that he threw the letter into the bin and launched the Syrian operation the same day. That could be proof there was no Trumpian green light.

I think that perceived weakness giving confidence that there would be little if any repercussions can be a green light as well.

This sounds like a brilliant Trump-Erdogan plan. "Hey, I'll just send you an angry letter! And you throw it away! Boom, they can't say I ok'd this!" [HIgh fives]

[stessier]

BBC

Turkish presidential sources told BBC Turkish: "President Erdogan received the letter, thoroughly rejected it and put it in the bin."
...
Donald Trump's mixture of threats and locker-room banter infuriated Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. His staff told the BBC that he threw the letter into the bin and launched the Syrian operation the same day. That could be proof there was no Trumpian green light.

I think that perceived weakness giving confidence that there would be little if any repercussions can be a green light as well.

This sounds like a brilliant Trump-Erdogan plan. "Hey, I'll just send you an angry letter! And you throw it away! Boom, they can't say I ok'd this!" [HIgh fives]

I don't think Trump would ever sign off on a plan that left him losing face no matter how much it might help him.

[Skinypupy]

So...about that cease fire.

JUST IN: Shelling, gunfire continues in area of Syria's Ras al-Ain, a day after Turkish-U.S. ceasefire deal

I'm sure the US will have a strong, even-handed response to this.

[El Guapo]

More generally, it is way past time for the U.S. to endorse the creation of a Kurdish state. This highlights how important it is - as long as we leave the Kurds at the mercy of the Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi, and Syrian governments stuff like this is going to continue to happen. I'd give a ton of credit to any Democratic candidate who came out and said this.

[Holman]

More generally, it is way past time for the U.S. to endorse the creation of a Kurdish state. This highlights how important it is - as long as we leave the Kurds at the mercy of the Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi, and Syrian governments stuff like this is going to continue to happen. I'd give a ton of credit to any Democratic candidate who came out and said this.

But of course the problem is that all the Middle-East real estate is long since spoken-for.

We should offer them Wyoming.

[Holman]

BBC

Turkish presidential sources told BBC Turkish: "President Erdogan received the letter, thoroughly rejected it and put it in the bin."
...
Donald Trump's mixture of threats and locker-room banter infuriated Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. His staff told the BBC that he threw the letter into the bin and launched the Syrian operation the same day. That could be proof there was no Trumpian green light.

I think that perceived weakness giving confidence that there would be little if any repercussions can be a green light as well.

My understanding is that the letter was before the phone call.

It's been leaked that Trump got totally rolled by Erdogan on the phone and gave the green light then.

[El Guapo]

More generally, it is way past time for the U.S. to endorse the creation of a Kurdish state. This highlights how important it is - as long as we leave the Kurds at the mercy of the Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi, and Syrian governments stuff like this is going to continue to happen. I'd give a ton of credit to any Democratic candidate who came out and said this.

But of course the problem is that all the Middle-East real estate is long since spoken-for.

We should offer them Wyoming.

I'm fine with offering them Wyoming as well (and honestly it would be incredible to watch the fallout of a candidate offering Wyoming to the Kurds), but the state would be carved out of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria.

[Holman]

More generally, it is way past time for the U.S. to endorse the creation of a Kurdish state. This highlights how important it is - as long as we leave the Kurds at the mercy of the Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi, and Syrian governments stuff like this is going to continue to happen. I'd give a ton of credit to any Democratic candidate who came out and said this.

But of course the problem is that all the Middle-East real estate is long since spoken-for.

We should offer them Wyoming.

I'm fine with offering them Wyoming as well (and honestly it would be incredible to watch the fallout of a candidate offering Wyoming to the Kurds), but the state would be carved out of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria.

That would be morally and geographically correct, but there's just no way it could possibly happen. The days of Great Powers redrawing the borders are long gone (and are responsible for much of the current mess), and Turkey, at least, has influence and Russian patronage at the UN.

I seem to remember that part of the plan way back in calling for Assad's removal was to give the Kurds a chunk of Syria. But of course Turkey just took that part for themselves.

[Max Peck]

My understanding is that the letter was before the phone call.

It's been leaked that Trump got totally rolled by Erdogan on the phone and gave the green light then.

No, the initial phone call where Trump approved the invasion was on 6 Oct, while the letter was dated 9 Oct.

President Endorses Turkish Military Operation in Syria, Shifting U.S. Policy

In a major shift in United States military policy in Syria, the White House said on Sunday that President Trump had given his endorsement for a Turkish military operation that would sweep away American-backed Kurdish forces near the border in Syria.

Turkey considers the Kurdish forces to be a terrorist insurgency, and has long sought to end American support for the group. But the Kurdish fighters, which are part of the Syrian Democratic Forces, or S.D.F., have been the United States’ most reliable partner in fighting the Islamic State in a strategic corner of northern Syria.

Now, Mr. Trump’s decision goes against the recommendations of top officials in the Pentagon and the State Department who have sought to keep a small troop presence in northeast Syria to continue operations against the Islamic State, or ISIS, and to act as a critical counterweight to Iran and Russia.

Administration officials said that Mr. Trump spoke directly with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey on the issue on Sunday. And the officials indicated that the 100 to 150 United States military personnel deployed to that area would be pulled back in advance of any Turkish operation but that they would not be completely withdrawn from Syria.

[El Guapo]

More generally, it is way past time for the U.S. to endorse the creation of a Kurdish state. This highlights how important it is - as long as we leave the Kurds at the mercy of the Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi, and Syrian governments stuff like this is going to continue to happen. I'd give a ton of credit to any Democratic candidate who came out and said this.

But of course the problem is that all the Middle-East real estate is long since spoken-for.

We should offer them Wyoming.

I'm fine with offering them Wyoming as well (and honestly it would be incredible to watch the fallout of a candidate offering Wyoming to the Kurds), but the state would be carved out of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria.

That would be morally and geographically correct, but there's just no way it could possibly happen. The days of Great Powers redrawing the borders are long gone (and are responsible for much of the current mess), and Turkey, at least, has influence and Russian patronage at the UN.

I seem to remember that part of the plan way back in calling for Assad's removal was to give the Kurds a chunk of Syria. But of course Turkey just took that part for themselves.

Yes, the days of sending in the army to carve a new state are gone, so the U.S.'s ability to force a Kurdish state in the near term is minimal. But what the U.S. can do (and definitely won't do as long as Trump is in office) is give the Kurds international legitimacy and support when they are pushing for their own state. So if / when the Turkish Kurds make a new independence push, we support them and threaten sanctions / other punishments in response to any repression. It may well take the Kurds decades, but typically countries eventually run out of the will to repress secessionist minority regions.

And part of the challenge is that the Kurds are split over four countries (though I think the bulk are in SE Turkey). So it may wind up being the case that the Kurds in one country get independence and form Kurdistan first, and then other regions get added later as other Kurdish minority groups split off from the other respective countries (or, as I worry, Kurds in other countries get pushed out and emigrate to the new Kurdish state).

[$iljanus]

My understanding is that the letter was before the phone call.

It's been leaked that Trump got totally rolled by Erdogan on the phone and gave the green light then.

No, the initial phone call where Trump approved the invasion was on 6 Oct, while the letter was dated 9 Oct.

President Endorses Turkish Military Operation in Syria, Shifting U.S. Policy

In a major shift in United States military policy in Syria, the White House said on Sunday that President Trump had given his endorsement for a Turkish military operation that would sweep away American-backed Kurdish forces near the border in Syria.

Turkey considers the Kurdish forces to be a terrorist insurgency, and has long sought to end American support for the group. But the Kurdish fighters, which are part of the Syrian Democratic Forces, or S.D.F., have been the United States’ most reliable partner in fighting the Islamic State in a strategic corner of northern Syria.

Now, Mr. Trump’s decision goes against the recommendations of top officials in the Pentagon and the State Department who have sought to keep a small troop presence in northeast Syria to continue operations against the Islamic State, or ISIS, and to act as a critical counterweight to Iran and Russia.

Administration officials said that Mr. Trump spoke directly with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey on the issue on Sunday. And the officials indicated that the 100 to 150 United States military personnel deployed to that area would be pulled back in advance of any Turkish operation but that they would not be completely withdrawn from Syria.

Donald J. Trump, the Neville Chamberlain of our time!

[Holman]

Nothing to see here, just POTUS endorsing ethnic cleansing.

[Smoove_B]

Not sure if it's hit US media yet, but in the UK they're reporting possible use of chemical weapons against the Syrians. An absolute nightmare over there, and for what?

[Skinypupy]

Words continue to inadequately express my disgust for that subhuman pile of filth.

[em2nought]

More generally, it is way past time for the U.S. to endorse the creation of a Kurdish state. This highlights how important it is - as long as we leave the Kurds at the mercy of the Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi, and Syrian governments stuff like this is going to continue to happen. I'd give a ton of credit to any Democratic candidate who came out and said this.

But of course the problem is that all the Middle-East real estate is long since spoken-for.

We should offer them Wyoming.

People are fleeing NY in droves, but I doubt the Kurds will want to go there.

[Holman]

It's always refreshing to see the other side make a relevant, thoughtful, and insightful point that addresses the core of concerns being discussed. It's so much better than the bottom-feeding troll behavior so common in so much social media.

[Skinypupy]

I'd actually be curious to know a well-articulated rationale behind someone actually supporting this clusterfuck.

So far, all I've heard has been "well...Obama started it". Even went to Fox News to see how it’s being spun...there’s not a single mention of it. Had to dig a couple clicks into their “World” section to find anything.

I’d wager that most Trumpers have no clue that anything is even happening.

[YellowKing]

They can't argue it because there is no argument for it. It was a catastrophic blunder with absolutely no thought or planning behind it.

So the Trump faithful do what they always do when confronted with some behavior that they can't possibly rationalize - they retreat into silence.

[Kraken]

I'd actually be curious to know a well-articulated rationale behind someone actually supporting this clusterfuck.

So far, all I've heard has been "well...Obama started it"

Trump was elected, consciously or not, to destroy our republic, which has been wobbly for some time. The Roman Empire was only born after Julius Caesar's dictatorship killed their republic. Octavius couldn't lead Rome to glory until 40 senators murdered Caesar on the floor of the senate. We need 67 senators to take out Julius Trump, and most of those are already honing their knives. (Trump knows all this, as evidenced by his eloquent tribute to Rome in a speech this week -- he really is playing 11-dimensional chess.) So the burning questions are: Who's going to play Brutus? and Will Trump's trial end on the Ides of March? and Who is Trump's maternal great-nephew?

I hate to see the republic die, but that would be such a metal way to go out.

[Alefroth]

They can't argue it because there is no argument for it.

They are arguing, though. They are saying we don't belong there and that the Kurds are as bad as the IS.

I just read some Youtube comments on Gabbard talking on Carlson (again), and it's mind-bending how easy it is for them to be led into believing whatever the right-wing talking points are.

[Kurth]

They can't argue it because there is no argument for it.

They are arguing, though. They are saying we don't belong there and that the Kurds are as bad as the IS.

I just read some Youtube comments on Gabbard talking on Carlson (again), and it's mind-bending how easy it is for them to be led into believing whatever the right-wing talking points are.

Gabbard is a loon. And maybe a Russian.

[Kraken]

They can't argue it because there is no argument for it.

They are arguing, though. They are saying we don't belong there and that the Kurds are as bad as the IS.

I just read some Youtube comments on Gabbard talking on Carlson (again), and it's mind-bending how easy it is for them to be led into believing whatever the right-wing talking points are.

Gabbard is a loon. And maybe a Russian.

I just read somewhere that the Russians will run her as a third-party spoiler, because Trump can't win without one. We'll see.

[Daehawk]

Time to drop her and about 5 others. Get the elderly pile down to 3 good contenders that may get votes and lets hear more of their evil..errr political plans.

[Alefroth]

They can't argue it because there is no argument for it.

They are arguing, though. They are saying we don't belong there and that the Kurds are as bad as the IS.

I just read some Youtube comments on Gabbard talking on Carlson (again), and it's mind-bending how easy it is for them to be led into believing whatever the right-wing talking points are.

Gabbard is a loon. And maybe a Russian.

I've lost quite a bit of respect for her. She's really trying to position herself as a spoiler.

[Drazzil]

Not sure where this goes but...

I'll just leave this here...

Warning NSFW pornographic anti trump political cartoon on the hood of a Honda Civic:

Spoiler:

Keep it wierd Portland!

[Holman]

They can't argue it because there is no argument for it.

They are arguing, though. They are saying we don't belong there and that the Kurds are as bad as the IS.

I just read some Youtube comments on Gabbard talking on Carlson (again), and it's mind-bending how easy it is for them to be led into believing whatever the right-wing talking points are.

Gabbard is a loon. And maybe a Russian.

I've lost quite a bit of respect for her. She's really trying to position herself as a spoiler.

There was never any reason to respect her. Long before she ever emerged as a prez candidate, she was a vocal supporter of Assad’s suppression of civilians. Someone’s using her for something.

[Drazzil]

They can't argue it because there is no argument for it.

They are arguing, though. They are saying we don't belong there and that the Kurds are as bad as the IS.

I just read some Youtube comments on Gabbard talking on Carlson (again), and it's mind-bending how easy it is for them to be led into believing whatever the right-wing talking points are.

Gabbard is a loon. And maybe a Russian.

I've lost quite a bit of respect for her. She's really trying to position herself as a spoiler.

There was never any reason to respect her. Long before she ever emerged as a prez candidate, she was a vocal supporter of Assad’s suppression of civilians. Someone’s using her for something.

I'm really starting to re evaluate my voting policies as of late. Voting for a third party really is a vote for Trump. Egads!

PS: The photo I posted earlier isin't pornographic in the strictest sense. But definitely funny and nsfw.

[Smoove_B]

I'm really starting to re evaluate my voting policies as of late. Voting for a third party really is a vote for Trump. Egads!

So it not voting. Or not being able to vote. This is a feature, not a bug.

[Drazzil]

I'm really starting to re evaluate my voting policies as of late. Voting for a third party really is a vote for Trump. Egads!

So it not voting. Or not being able to vote. This is a feature, not a bug.

I'll vote but I would prefer a benovalant dictator at this point. I have zero confidence in my fellow americans or in our system.

[GungHo]

So...about those troops coming home

I know we're all surprised to see that trump has reversed his 'thinking' on troop withdrawal.
But the trumpkins will be good with it, I'm sure.


Hmm seems bc I was on my phone I linked to the apple news app instead of the website. Sorry

[Daehawk]

A US military wife writes a letter to the Kurdish people.

[YellowKing]

Hillary pointed out that Trump was a Russian puppet long before any of the rest of us caught on. At this point, if she says someone's being groomed by Russians, I ain't dismissing it out of hand.

[Holman]

I'm really starting to re evaluate my voting policies as of late. Voting for a third party really is a vote for Trump. Egads!

So it not voting. Or not being able to vote. This is a feature, not a bug.

I'll vote but I would prefer a benovalant dictator at this point. I have zero confidence in my fellow americans or in our system.

You tried that last time. How did it work out?

[Drazzil]

I'm really starting to re evaluate my voting policies as of late. Voting for a third party really is a vote for Trump. Egads!

So it not voting. Or not being able to vote. This is a feature, not a bug.

I'll vote but I would prefer a benovalant dictator at this point. I have zero confidence in my fellow americans or in our system.

You tried that last time. How did it work out?

I guess... Not so well.