Racism in America (with data)

[malchior]

My friends have been down at PHL rallies and they've described them as mini-wars. He and his girlfriend were there when they trapped the protesters on 676 and started shooting tear gas into a pinned crowd. They basically forced an entire crowd to climb a fence to escape. Then he was randomly sprayed with mace by a passing cop from a car while walking near his home in Fishtown. He went and bought a full face mask and went back. And that is why these protests will roll on. What we are seeing is that our nation has an evil, broken police culture. It needs to be burned to the ground. That one white shirt cop landed a full power blow to the back of that woman's head. I can't believe people haven't died in large numbers.

[morlac]

Indeed, as it was called for after his prior post ridiculously caricatured and/or demonstrated misunderstanding of what he thought he was arguing against.

It's really not that complicated. Go back a few days and read through what I, BH, etc have been saying.

It's not, and mine was called for after reading all this thread as it is full of subtle, qualified statements supporting violence and trying to shame anyone who thinks otherwise.


Here you go, there's more but I got tired of it

These are fist responses to being shown police being attacked with a car.
"for the one image of police being hit by a vehicle, there's probably half a dozen videos of people assaulting protesters with their cars - including police"
"seeing the Miltary aggression used against American’s in the video, leading up to the car running through them joins the masses of videos where I feel I see police being so much more the instigator of the violence.""

Qualified statement with Bonus point for the righteous indignation at even having the audacity to say stop the violence.
"I certainly don't condone it But I understand how after years, decades, a century+ of trying the peaceful methods--only to see the country steadily move to empower white nationalists in the past few years--folks whose lives are significantly negatively impacted on a daily basis might think otherwise. Who the hell am I to tell them that they're just going to have to keep on hoping that maybe the next peaceful protest is the one that turns the tide? "

"I don't think you intended to say that explicitly, but yes--suggesting that violence (or any option) is off the table is in fact implicitly suggesting that we keep on keepin' on with the methods that haven't worked. "
---so either I accept the violence and agree with you or I am being racist. I don't think you intended to say that but you did.

"Frankly? Who cares what we as non-black folks think about the progress? Black people are terrorized. They are afraid for their lives every day. Saying there has been progress isn't good enough. Many of us are *fed up* with this system but they are *traumatized*. Violence shouldn't be the solution but if peaceful means don't work then when the violence comes it will in hindsight be unfortunately seen as necessary."
---Necessary (justified) violence

"1) It's not unreasonable for Black Americans to feel that acting out via escalated protests that include some violence (eg looting, property destruction) is necessary at this stage, and
2) It's not reasonable for white folks to point fingers at Black folks for the protests as they've played out thus far. We do not have the life experiences to understand the situation as Black folks do. "
---nope I take it back, you did mean to call me racist.

"Again, I'd prefer that this all went down peacefully, we had a few marches, and magically equal justice for all materialized at the local, state, and federal level. That was never likely to happen, though, based on ~150 years of prior attempts. I'm not ready to condemn folks who live under the shadow of that history at this time."
---won't condemn the violence but won''t condemn those committing it either. Free pass, Gotcha.

"But that's not relevant, as none of us are suggesting picking up a sword. We're saying that we're seeing people who have suffered violence their whole lives trying to reason, failing, getting backed into a corner, and that we're seeing them picking up swords. And we're saying that while we don't think it will help, we can't condemn them for doing so when we aren't the ones who have been the targets."

"Sometimes violence IS the answer."

"What I am saying is that given the lack of any sort of progress in regards to changing the number of black Americans being murdered by police, I do understand why they might feel it’s necessary."

" Riots and anarchy are not a way forward.

Until they are."


One of my favorites for you propaganda lovers out there because context doesn't matter when it fits your agenda:
"A lot of what has been posted in this thread...it doesn't matter what happened before the cameras rolled"

Lastly when backed in a corner we got:
"Let me know when you're done with the team phone from calling all the African-Americans who have experienced injustice due to systemic racism. Then I'll start in on those impacted by looting. "

which was just a smartass response to me because I had it coming except after reading the above, maybe not.

[ImLawBoy]

you propaganda lovers out there

So you've given up on trying to have a civil, productive conversation.

[morlac]

you propaganda lovers out there

So you've given up on trying to have a civil, productive conversation.

I wasn't explicitly calling anyone here a propaganda lover just pointing out if you were that you would love the next comment.

[malchior]

(Deleted) There is no value to had engaging on this

[morlac]

Says Capt. Context. That's rich.

[Alefroth]

Obsessive quoting

Yet you know my two quotes aren't incorrect. Our country is here because they aren't.

[Zaxxon]

That sure was a lot of effort only to continue misunderstanding everyone.

[ImLawBoy]

Let's try to find some common ground. For morlac and Anonymous Bosch, do you agree that there is systemic racism, including unfair treatment of minorities by the police, in the US?

[Blackhawk]

Which one of you are going to call his family and explain how violence is perfectly acceptable response because change is hard?

Nobody here, not one of us, not me, not Zaxxon said that.

We're watching a skinny kid getting picked on by a bully. Every day. For years. We're watching him ask the teacher for help and being ignored. We're watching him report the bully to the principle and being ignored. We're watching him beg in class and being told it's wrong. Finally, after years of this, the kid turns around and punches the bully.

Violence is not a solution.

But I can say that I understand why the kid swung, and while I can't say it was the right answer, I also won't judge him for it, and might have done the same thing in his place.

That's not condoning violence.


/edit - I replied without realizing that there were two more pages between me and the original post. I need to catch up...

[Paingod]

Daring to be an uninvolved homeless man and in a wheelchair in LA while other people protest? You better bet that's a rubber bullet to the face.

As we were being boxed in on Broadway & 5th Street to be arrested, LAPD decided that a completely unarmed homeless man in a wheelchair that had NOTHING to do with our protest was somehow a threat. They proceeded to inappropriately shoot "non-lethal" rounds directly at his face, which is against the proper procedure for firing rubber bullets.

The last image is exceptionally heart-breaking for me as you can visibly see the homeless man writhing in pain, screaming, as he spews blood from his face moments after getting shot.

[stessier]

This seems like the NFL players are throwing down the gauntlet. Good for them. I hope they are able to hang together whenever football resumes.

[Holman]

Philadelphia - w in the actual f is happening?

I'm learning how ignorant a local citizen I've been. I've been in Philadelphia 18 years now, and my vague sense has been that "our" cops were somewhat above the kind of stuff you saw in Ferguson etc. There haven't been many high-profiles of police misconduct until this year--or maybe I've just been blind to them.

When I mentioned this to my wife yesterday, she rolled her eyes and reminded me that I care too much about world news over local news. (She's active in city politics. I'm starting to collect better sources to follow from her now.)

This is a wake-up for the parts of the city that have been sleeping, including me.

[El Guapo]

Who could've predicted that a conversation on racism in America might turn contentious?

[malchior]

Philadelphia - w in the actual f is happening?

I'm learning how ignorant a local citizen I've been. I've been in Philadelphia 18 years now, and my vague sense has been that "our" cops were somewhat above the kind of stuff you saw in Ferguson etc. There haven't been many high-profiles of police misconduct until this year--or maybe I've just been blind to them.

When I mentioned this to my wife yesterday, she rolled her eyes and reminded me that I care too much about world news over local news. (She's active in city politics. I'm starting to collect better sources to follow from her now.)

This is a wake-up for the parts of the city that have been sleeping, including me.

Haha. Yeah Philly has had some real interesting police issues and I'm not even talking about the fire in the 80s.

[LawBeefaroni]

Pence was just on CNBC. His first words were ,"Great to be with all of you and it's a great day for America!"

(Jobs report better than expected).

What a tone deaf motherfucker. The rest is predictable Trump ass licking.

[Holman]

Philadelphia - w in the actual f is happening?

I'm learning how ignorant a local citizen I've been. I've been in Philadelphia 18 years now, and my vague sense has been that "our" cops were somewhat above the kind of stuff you saw in Ferguson etc. There haven't been many high-profiles of police misconduct until this year--or maybe I've just been blind to them.

When I mentioned this to my wife yesterday, she rolled her eyes and reminded me that I care too much about world news over local news. (She's active in city politics. I'm starting to collect better sources to follow from her now.)

This is a wake-up for the parts of the city that have been sleeping, including me.

Haha. Yeah Philly has had some real interesting police issues and I'm not even talking about the fire in the 80s.

Yeah. I was limiting my impressions all along to just the time I've been here. (I'd moved MOVE into the category of "history," for example.)

[malchior]

Philadelphia - w in the actual f is happening?

This is Philly around 5:30 today. There is just no defense for this behavior. At all.

I guess I am largely ignorant of what the NYPD climate has been. I knew they were bad at one point but then I thought they were evaluated and reformed. What I've been seeing over the last 24 hours suggests they have big, big problems. I don't know anything about Philadelphia cops (or their history) but that video above is inexcusable.

Follow up. The person hit in the head with a baton and pinned to the ground with a knee had charges dropped by the prosecutor. The police said that this person had pushed them off a bike breaking the officer's hand. The video proved this was a false report. No mention of whether the DA would investigate the police for filing a false report, false arrest, and/or assault. You have to wonder if juries of anyone but the most oblivious people are going to believe police testimony for a long while.

[Paingod]

The rest is predictable Trump ass licking.

You know, these corn kernels are specifically heavenly today, in light of what our savior has given us.

[Blackhawk]

Philadelphia - w in the actual f is happening?

I'm learning how ignorant a local citizen I've been.

This is me, on a national level. I was 'aware', but it was background noise. Around here I'm surrounded by racists, but there is almost no racism (because there are no races - the county is more than 98% white.) You don't see something and it starts to become less 'real.'

The last couple of weeks have really, really woken me up, painfully. I like to think that it's an example of what the protests are already achieving.

[LordMortis]

This seems like the NFL players are throwing down the gauntlet. Good for them. I hope they are able to hang together whenever football resumes.

I don't want to conflate fiction with reality, fictional slavery with the modern American PoC struggle, the Coliseum with the NFL.

But damned if I don't hear




Maybe when this all calms down and hopefully we end up "failing better" I'll take the time to read about the real Spartacus.

[coopasonic]

Remember the joke: Beatings will continue until morale improves?

I guess Trump and law enforcement didn't get the joke.

[LawBeefaroni]

Trump just released a letter from one of his attorneys calling the DC protestors terrorists. Apparently this now justifies his show of force used to clear way for his inane photo op.

[Zaxxon]

[$iljanus]

Trump just released a letter from one of his attorneys calling the DC protestors terrorists. Apparently this now justifies his show of force used to clear way for his inane photo op.

Such is the fate of all who oppose the regime.

[morlac]

Let's try to find some common ground. For morlac and Anonymous Bosch, do you agree that there is systemic racism, including unfair treatment of minorities by the police, in the US?

Yes, 100% without question. The police brutality that has been getting worse is sickening and I come from a family with Law enforcement in it. A good question I wonder about: Is police brutality a result of the systemic racism or a symptom? Will fixing one fix the other? No I don't think we don't need to burn it all down to accomplish it. Not yet anyhow.

I do (obviously) disagree with violence as a viable tactic. I (obviously) abhor violence at what would appear to be an unhealthy level. This is due to MY OWN experiences with it which I'm not really willing to go into details about on an open forum. So naturally, I took offense to even the slightest implied acceptance of it as a tactic and went out of my way to make sure those who did understood exactly what the ramifications of that would be. I tried to make a point that saying it is viable is easy when you have never really experienced it and more importantly if there is zero chance of said violence effecting your personal bubble. Speaking out against the choice of violence should not be meet with veiled accusations of being racist and IMO making excuses as to why it is, is akin to supporting it. Sort of like Silence is Violence in not speaking out and calling out racism. It shouldn't need to be qualified If that is your stance, You just need to realize innocents will be caught up in it, lives will be ruined financially and some of these folks are completely innocent and/or minorities themselves. Once the violence book is open and it becomes "accepted" by the masses it will only escalate from there and become more widespread and then the message is totally lost and nothing will change unless you burn it all down. I don't think we are there yet but I can recognize the present course if unaltered will lead us there.

Lastly, beside my disdain for violence I also cited research indicating violence might not actually be most effective tactic due to losing the moderate's (which I sorta consider myself)votes which will be paramount to any long lasting policy change. Trump pulled a play right from Nixon with the whole Law and Order President thing. A little hyperbole incoming... but imo We can't beat racism out of people and trying will only cause more resentment and more generations of hate. We are at a critical point here and there will be no overwhelming landslide victories.


I do apologize to everyone for going off the ledge a bit but I was extremely frustrated with the hand waving dismissals and veiled accusations. Nobody wanted a discussion and those tend to be difficult in an echo chambers anyway but I certainly didn't handle it correctly. Maybe I was reading too much into it but I felt and still do that the tone was certainly there.

Thank you all for listening but I will most likely bow out at this point due to this all pretty much being pointless.

[Paingod]

Trump just released a letter from one of his attorneys calling the DC protestors terrorists. Apparently this now justifies his show of force used to clear way for his inane photo op.

Such is the fate of all who oppose the regime.

We'll be lucky if he hasn't labeled anyone who votes or speaks against him as a terrorist. Can you imagine him sending military into Congress to arrest Pelosi? We've already slid past what everyone said he was capable of. He really has no "rock bottom" - there's always a new low.

[Zaxxon]

I do apologize to everyone for going off the ledge a bit but I was extremely frustrated with the hand waving dismissals and veiled accusations. Nobody wanted a discussion and those tend to be difficult in an echo chambers anyway but I certainly didn't handle it correctly. Maybe I was reading too much into it but I felt and still do that the tone was certainly there.

Apologies for my own jumping a bit off the deep end. FWIW, I don't think anyone was intentionally tossing out veiled accusations.

[El Guapo]

I will also say that in general there's a fairly thin line between understanding why someone might engage in violence and justifying that violence. There's absolutely a distinction, but there is a tendency for one to bleed into the other (and for misunderstandings and miscommunications in a context like that).

[Octavious]

I give up.


President Donald Trump said he hoped George Floyd was “looking down” on a surprisingly optimistic jobs report released Friday, just moments after calling for an amped-up police response to nationwide protests against racism and police brutality sparked by Floyd’s death.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Let's try to find some common ground. For morlac and Anonymous Bosch, do you agree that there is systemic racism, including unfair treatment of minorities by the police, in the US?

Sure, and I said as much earlier. But I would also echo the sentiments of George Floyd's own brother in terms of whether that justifies devastating entire communities across the country:

Terrence Floyd, George Floyd’s younger brother, called for an end to the violent protests, rioting and looting that have been carried out in his brother’s name.

"Sometimes I get angry, I want to bust some heads, too," Terrence Floyd told ABC News. "I wanna just go crazy. But I’m here. My brother wasn’t about that. My brother was about peace. You’ll hear a lot of people say he was a gentle giant."

...

Floyd called for an end to the mayhem and asked those involved to step back and look at what they’ve done to their own communities and channel their anger elsewhere.

"Don’t tear up your town, all of this is not necessary because if his own family and blood is not doing it, then why are you?" said Terrence Floyd. "If his own family and blood are trying to deal with it and be positive about it, and go another route to seek justice, then why are you out here tearing up your community? Because when you’re finished and turn around and want to go buy something, you done tore it up. So now you messed up your own living arrangements. So just relax. Justice will be served."

Floyd again reiterated that his brother was a positive person and wouldn’t want to be remembered this way.

"Do something positive. Stop making excuses," Terrence Floyd told ABC News. "And that’s what I feel is going on: They’re using this as an excuse to be stupid.”

[LawBeefaroni]

I give up.


President Donald Trump said he hoped George Floyd was “looking down” on a surprisingly optimistic jobs report released Friday, just moments after calling for an amped-up police response to nationwide protests against racism and police brutality sparked by Floyd’s death.

It is a great jobs report. Some people say the best jobs report. Black Americans have told me they appreciate the great jobs!

[El Guapo]

Let's try to find some common ground. For morlac and Anonymous Bosch, do you agree that there is systemic racism, including unfair treatment of minorities by the police, in the US?

Sure, and I said as much earlier. But I would also echo the sentiments of George Floyd's own brother in terms of whether that justifies devastating entire communities across the country:

Terrence Floyd, George Floyd’s younger brother, called for an end to the violent protests, rioting and looting that have been carried out in his brother’s name.

"Sometimes I get angry, I want to bust some heads, too," Terrence Floyd told ABC News. "I wanna just go crazy. But I’m here. My brother wasn’t about that. My brother was about peace. You’ll hear a lot of people say he was a gentle giant."

...

Floyd called for an end to the mayhem and asked those involved to step back and look at what they’ve done to their own communities and channel their anger elsewhere.

"Don’t tear up your town, all of this is not necessary because if his own family and blood is not doing it, then why are you?" said Terrence Floyd. "If his own family and blood are trying to deal with it and be positive about it, and go another route to seek justice, then why are you out here tearing up your community? Because when you’re finished and turn around and want to go buy something, you done tore it up. So now you messed up your own living arrangements. So just relax. Justice will be served."

Floyd again reiterated that his brother was a positive person and wouldn’t want to be remembered this way.

"Do something positive. Stop making excuses," Terrence Floyd told ABC News. "And that’s what I feel is going on: They’re using this as an excuse to be stupid.”

That kind of gets at who is committing the violence and why. Here's a question - do you think that the protests should be stopped because some people will inevitably use them as a vehicle for acts of violence?

[El Guapo]

I give up.


President Donald Trump said he hoped George Floyd was “looking down” on a surprisingly optimistic jobs report released Friday, just moments after calling for an amped-up police response to nationwide protests against racism and police brutality sparked by Floyd’s death.

It is a great jobs report. Some people say the best jobs report. Black Americans have told me they appreciate the great jobs!

I think this exemplifies what a narcissist Trump is. I really think his line of thinking is "this is great news for me. Therefore it's great news for the country. Therefore everyone will be happy with me, as they should be."

[malchior]

In DeBlasio is out of his depth news, he joins a segment every friday where people can ask him questions. He just said that 'anarchists' are behind all the looting/damage. Ok. Where's the evidence? Anyway, then he goes on to say they are blending into the crowds which justified the mass arrests against the crowds. So to recap, he apparently is admitting to NYPD conducting itself in a manner that violates civil right's at scale in a press conference. He also attacked the referee (Brian Lehrer) which was top notch. He was shown a video of the police violence and ignored it to make some statement in support of the police. It is like the NYPD has evidence on him or something. I can't wait for the audio to be posted.

[ImLawBoy]

Let's try to find some common ground. For morlac and Anonymous Bosch, do you agree that there is systemic racism, including unfair treatment of minorities by the police, in the US?

Sure, and I said as much earlier. But I would also echo the sentiments of George Floyd's own brother in terms of whether that justifies devastating entire communities across the country:

See, I try to find some common ground, and we almost get there, but we go right back to talking past each other. Is anyone here saying that the violence is justified? (Maybe they are and I missed it, in which case I apologize.) They're saying it's understandable - that's a huge difference.

[Paingod]

I have to come in this weekend ahead of protesters to pack up our electronics in one of the offices and hide it away in a locked room on-site, then come in equally early Monday to put it all back before business opens. One of the owners is very concerned that our little medical practice will get looted.

The protests are expected to be 1.4 miles from our location. It's probably going to be fewer than 2500 protesters. The same thing happened in Portland, ME this week - 1000 people showed up, and then an hour later 100-200 people lingered to cause trouble with 23 arrested, including the white supremacist, fascist-loving "Proud Boys" who were attempting to exploit the mood.

[malchior]

Interesting data point on how these protests are perceived.

[Enough]

Let's try to find some common ground. For morlac and Anonymous Bosch, do you agree that there is systemic racism, including unfair treatment of minorities by the police, in the US?

Sure, and I said as much earlier. But I would also echo the sentiments of George Floyd's own brother in terms of whether that justifies devastating entire communities across the country:

See, I try to find some common ground, and we almost get there, but we go right back to talking past each other. Is anyone here saying that the violence is justified? (Maybe they are and I missed it, in which case I apologize.) They're saying it's understandable - that's a huge difference.

Thanks and that's true for me as well.

[morlac]

Meanwhile the ATL is doing it right:

edit : opps not POST curfew. Right at it.






Edit to add:



9:15 p.m.: The protests have ended peacefully. Several National Guard members took off their gas masks; tear gas was not released.

11:25 p.m.: Atlanta police announced that officers made six arrests Thursday related to the protests, which is significantly less than any of the past six days.