Racism in America (with data)

[El Guapo]

No reasonable person would think that putting your weight on the side of someone's neck for nearly 10 minutes isn't extremely dangerous. Worse this was a trained peace keeper. His alleged crime? Passing a $20 counterfeit note. It's ludicrously disproportionate use of force and they did it on body camera, with a cell phone trained on him, and a crowd including a first responder yelling at the officer to provide aid. Fuck that cop. The cops constantly are flexing and abusing their power in plain sight for effect.

As long as qualified immunity continues to be a thing, stuff like this will happen.

That's definitely a piece of it but I don't know how they operate without it either. Maybe civil lawsuits would tamp it down but it seems much more complex. The warp and weave of it is that they act this way because juries, voters, and politicians generally turn a blind eye to it. That is changing but this is just another broken part of our society that needs significant repairs. Like so much that has gone unaddressed it may have severe consequences because it was ignored for so long. Millions are out of work and anger is real out there that has nothing to do with the pandemic. Do we see a few flare ups or is this looking like 1967? Who knows at this point.

I would think that exposing police departments to civil liability for abuses would give the departments the necessary incentive to actually police this stuff.

It creates an incentive but it isn't enough. Since that is the way it often works now. Many departments routinely pay large settlements and their insurance companies often cover them. The insurance industry could 'police them' but in reality will have stiff headwinds. The system has responded to spread the risk enough that as long as police violence is kept to a certain level it is allowable. They've contained their risk on the civil side to acceptable levels. Clearly since payouts continue and police violence in broad daylight continues and is enabled by the lack of criminal liability.

Ah. So what exactly is qualified immunity protecting them from?

[LordMortis]

I would think that exposing police departments to civil liability for abuses would give the departments the necessary incentive to actually police this stuff.

I don't know the implication of that, but is it possible that civil liability translates to the cost of doing business and the need to raise more revenue to pay off the abused?

[malchior]

No reasonable person would think that putting your weight on the side of someone's neck for nearly 10 minutes isn't extremely dangerous. Worse this was a trained peace keeper. His alleged crime? Passing a $20 counterfeit note. It's ludicrously disproportionate use of force and they did it on body camera, with a cell phone trained on him, and a crowd including a first responder yelling at the officer to provide aid. Fuck that cop. The cops constantly are flexing and abusing their power in plain sight for effect.

As long as qualified immunity continues to be a thing, stuff like this will happen.

That's definitely a piece of it but I don't know how they operate without it either. Maybe civil lawsuits would tamp it down but it seems much more complex. The warp and weave of it is that they act this way because juries, voters, and politicians generally turn a blind eye to it. That is changing but this is just another broken part of our society that needs significant repairs. Like so much that has gone unaddressed it may have severe consequences because it was ignored for so long. Millions are out of work and anger is real out there that has nothing to do with the pandemic. Do we see a few flare ups or is this looking like 1967? Who knows at this point.

I would think that exposing police departments to civil liability for abuses would give the departments the necessary incentive to actually police this stuff.

It creates an incentive but it isn't enough. Since that is the way it often works now. Many departments routinely pay large settlements and their insurance companies often cover them. The insurance industry could 'police them' but in reality will have stiff headwinds. The system has responded to spread the risk enough that as long as police violence is kept to a certain level it is allowable. They've contained their risk on the civil side to acceptable levels. Clearly since payouts continue and police violence in broad daylight continues and is enabled by the lack of criminal liability.

Ah. So what exactly is qualified immunity protecting them from?

Most states have ways to pierce that protection. They often allow the departments to be sued when say their policies are not enforced properly or use of force was outside established parameters. However, it is very hard or impossible to get through to the officers individually. Here is an explainer if you want to dive deep into it. It comes down to the idea that the Supreme Court via case law has erected stiff protections that enable police violence and abuse of power. Especially bad in civil forfeiture land. I recall that a lot of folks blame it on the war on drugs. Essentially they chipped away so much at rights to enable it that we're now seeing all these far flung consequences.

[LawBeefaroni]

Seeing some reports of gun confiscation by MPD for protesters who were licensed and open carrying legally. Also reports of weapons checks (taking weapons, unloading them, checking ammo, checking to see if they are full auto or not, etc). None of which is ever heard of in other open carry 2A protests (Michigan, Texas, etc). Difference? These were all blacks carrying rifles.

Fox News: Asks black man, "why do you show up with real weapons... aren't you flirting with disaster?"

[malchior]

Funny how no one was anything but polite to these guys (who seemed straight up reasonable to me despite their 'redneckness'). This system is straight up fucking racist and I think many of us - even many of the privileged whites - are fucking sick of it.



Edit: You done know you fucked up when the National FOP doesn't even have your back.

[Roman]

I know this will sound silly but.... bear with me.
Disclaimer: I am Canadian. White. In NO WAY saying that my country OR any other country is better than another.

What I realized this week:
I never fully realized just how messed up things are down there with respect to law and order and black and white people.
Last week or the week before you had armed white (for the most part) men protesting in Michigan against the lockdown etc. I didn't see any police action / presence etc. Sure it may be an open carry state but still - why are guns required in this case?

Last 2 days you had black (for the most part) protesters angry (rightfully so) against the killing in Minnesota and you have a police presence there immediately trying to disperse them? WTF?
Yes I know the looting etc was also taking place BUT before that there was only protests/marches etc.

No I don't have an answer for all this. No I am not looking to start a fight. Just felt the need to post this.

Thanks for reading.

[LawBeefaroni]

Now it's in St. Paul, MN. Target at St. Anthony & Hamlin and a nearby pawn shop are being burned/looted. Police are getting people out, telling stores to close, and then pulling TFO.

[malchior]

Last 2 days you had black (for the most part) protesters angry (rightfully so) against the killing in Minnesota and you have a police presence there immediately trying to disperse them? WTF?
Yes I know the looting etc was also taking place BUT before that there was only protests/marches etc.

No I don't have an answer for all this. No I am not looking to start a fight. Just felt the need to post this.

Thanks for reading.

Even worse is the looting really only began after the police spent the first night peppering these people with rubber bullets. I don't think we can realistically say the looting doesn't happen if the protests stayed peaceful. In effect, if the police didn't escalate. We never really will find out an answer to that question because the police will always escalate against a black population. They have no reason not to. The black people always get the blame in the end.

[LawBeefaroni]

Spreading in St. Paul. Police on the radio just made a call to assemble mobile teams with 40mm/gas capability. Until now they've just been sitting back observing and letting it happen but crowds are growing.

Another call came in asking for clearance to use pepeprball as squad cars start to get surrounded.

[malchior]

Spreading in St. Paul. Police on the radio just made a call to assemble mobile teams with 40mm/gas capability.

They apparently dispersed one crowd attempting to attack a Target there. The police showed up in force. I'll take a guess it was a white neighborhood.

[Skinypupy]

Given the heightened racial tensions, the economic climate, and the pandemic (with Trump actively fanning the flames of all three), I fear this summer is going to get horrifically ugly in lots of different places.

We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg here.

[LawBeefaroni]

Spreading in St. Paul. Police on the radio just made a call to assemble mobile teams with 40mm/gas capability.

They apparently dispersed one crowd attempting to attack a Target there. The police showed up in force. I'll take a guess it was a white neighborhood.

They got the employees out and then pulled back. It's getting looted now.

A T-mobile getting looted now, they're sending CART team to the T-mobile. The other teams are protecting board-up crews who are covering windows. They don't have the manpower to deal with it and word is getting out.

[malchior]

Given the heightened racial tensions, the economic climate, and the pandemic (with Trump actively fanning the flames of all three), I fear this summer is going to get horrifically ugly in lots of different places.

We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg here.

Don't forget the election. It hangs over the whole thing. Does Trump act like this last year? Probably a lot of it is the same...but he probably wouldn't have dug in so hard on the divisive edge since he wouldn't be fretting about election poll numbers.

[Unagi]

I’m wrestling mixed emotions.

If this turns into storming the White House , I’m in

[Kraken]

Given the heightened racial tensions, the economic climate, and the pandemic (with Trump actively fanning the flames of all three), I fear this summer is going to get horrifically ugly in lots of different places.

We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg here.

I had the same thought. A lot of angry people who have just barely been holding themselves together are going to uncork.

[malchior]

Given the heightened racial tensions, the economic climate, and the pandemic (with Trump actively fanning the flames of all three), I fear this summer is going to get horrifically ugly in lots of different places.

We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg here.

I had the same thought. A lot of angry people who have just barely been holding themselves together are going to uncork.

Very angry and mass unemployed. If they were hungry we'd be a whole world of hurt (historically speaking). This may very well spread. Considering there were incidents in LA and TN already...this isn't looking good. The MN governor is stuck between a heavy handed crack down that maybe kicks off a bigger problem or hoping containment is possible.

We also will be bombarded with contextless stuff like this that won't help. Though it appears to be at first glance to be an officer out of control. The guy removes his seat belt and then the cop starts beating on him including blows to the back of his head.

[LawBeefaroni]

In St. Paul, squad cars being pelted with bottles and rocks, police "strike teams" pulling out of stores/strip malls as they are being overrun. Mostly hear dejected cops calling in looting, taking no action, dispatch repeating. At best they're taking down plate numbers. Everyone knows they can't afford a violent confrontation.

So now the pros are coming in and taking advantage. SUVs pulling up with 4-5 people breaking into closed shops and cleaning them out. A Jeep just took an ATM.


Fortunately no real violence other than destruction of property and looting. But you know this will be used to reflect negatively on BLM and shoot down anyone questioning the current order of things.

[LawBeefaroni]

Getting more confrontational now. Someone took a sledgehammer to the back window of a state trooper car, with a trooper inside. A group is throwing rocks and glass bottles at cops. They are behind a human chain of individuals, stopping the police from getting to them.

Just asked for, and got, approval for smoke and "triple chaser" (CS) canisters. Also 40mm green and white.

[malchior]

Getting more confrontational now. Someone took a sledgehammer to the back window of a state trooper car, with a trooper inside. A group is throwing rocks and glass bottles at cops. They are behind a human chain of individuals, stopping the police from getting to them.

Just asked for, and got, approval for smoke and "triple chaser" (CS) canisters. Also 40mm green and white.

Are you on the scanner feed too? If so, it never stops bothering me that they use terms like 'strike force 3', 'strike force 13'. This militarization is part of the problem. They've patterned themselves as a paramilitary force.

[hitbyambulance]

Spreading in St. Paul. Police on the radio just made a call to assemble mobile teams with 40mm/gas capability.

They apparently dispersed one crowd attempting to attack a Target there. The police showed up in force. I'll take a guess it was a white neighborhood.

(former MSP resident here)
Midway is actually a more racially mixed/immigrant neighborhood.

[malchior]

Spreading in St. Paul. Police on the radio just made a call to assemble mobile teams with 40mm/gas capability.

They apparently dispersed one crowd attempting to attack a Target there. The police showed up in force. I'll take a guess it was a white neighborhood.

(former MSP resident here)
Midway is actually a more racially mixed/immigrant neighborhood.

Thanks. It was a bit of a sarcastic remark to be honest.

[hitbyambulance]

found out my old apartment was in the looting/rioting area (which was bigger than i thought). it wasn't a business so it wasn't Target-ed

and it should again be noted the opportunistic/professional looters are doing exactly the thing the racist-as-hell MPD want. MPD (the officers, not the chief of police) wants to crackdown hard and that just gives them the license to do so. Gov. Frey needs to come up with a viable solution, quick.

[Alefroth]

No reasonable person would think that putting your weight on the side of someone's neck for nearly 10 minutes isn't extremely dangerous.

Apparently this guy isn't reasonable?

[LawBeefaroni]

Getting more confrontational now. Someone took a sledgehammer to the back window of a state trooper car, with a trooper inside. A group is throwing rocks and glass bottles at cops. They are behind a human chain of individuals, stopping the police from getting to them.

Just asked for, and got, approval for smoke and "triple chaser" (CS) canisters. Also 40mm green and white.

Are you on the scanner feed too? If so, it never stops bothering me that they use terms like 'strike force 3', 'strike force 13'. This militarization is part of the problem. They've patterned themselves as a paramilitary force.

Yeah. They were using CART team designations but organized "strike teams". Don't know it it was a shift change or escalation. Kind of had it in the background.

You'd think "Tac team" would be fine. Cool factor is there but not at menacing.

[malchior]

No reasonable person would think that putting your weight on the side of someone's neck for nearly 10 minutes isn't extremely dangerous.

Apparently this guy isn't reasonable?

Haha. Anyone even attempting to defend this guy is...some serious kind of dumb.

You'd think "Tac team" would be fine. Cool factor is there but not at menacing.

Sure if the menacing part wasn't sort of the point of it. Great if you are say quelling a resistance. Not so great when you a policing a community.

[hitbyambulance]

even my parents - senior citizens living in the far-flung metro exurbs who are hardly known for their progressive views on racial justice and seem to harbor an unreasonable grudge against native americans and Somali immigrants - when commenting on the current situation, just up and said oh yeah, MPD are racist.

[LawBeefaroni]

No reasonable person would think that putting your weight on the side of someone's neck for nearly 10 minutes isn't extremely dangerous.

Apparently this guy isn't reasonable?

Haha. Anyone even attempting to defend this guy is...some serious kind of dumb.

You'd think "Tac team" would be fine. Cool factor is there but not at menacing.

Sure if the menacing part wasn't sort of the point of it. Great if you are say quelling a resistance. Not so great when you a policing a community.

Generally the designation isn't for public consumption. It's not like they have "Strike Team Five!" patches or anything, it's just put together on the fly. Who ever was running the show came up with the name it sounded like. You could hear him forming the teams on the air. "Let's call you Strike Team one..." But people are listening so they should really come up with something more appropriate. Shield Team or something. Maybe Line One, Line Two... it's a hockey town.

[LawBeefaroni]

MINNEAPOLIS—Calling for a more measured way to express opposition to police brutality, critics slammed demonstrators Thursday for recklessly looting businesses without forming a private equity firm first. “Look, we all have the right to protest, but that doesn’t mean you can just rush in and destroy any business without gathering a group of clandestine investors to purchase it at a severely reduced price and slowly bleed it to death,” said Facebook commenter Amy Mulrain, echoing the sentiments of detractors nationwide who blasted the demonstrators for not hiring a consultant group to take stock of a struggling company’s assets before plundering.

It's sad because it is spot on.

[malchior]

No reasonable person would think that putting your weight on the side of someone's neck for nearly 10 minutes isn't extremely dangerous.

Apparently this guy isn't reasonable?

Haha. Anyone even attempting to defend this guy is...some serious kind of dumb.

You'd think "Tac team" would be fine. Cool factor is there but not at menacing.

Sure if the menacing part wasn't sort of the point of it. Great if you are say quelling a resistance. Not so great when you a policing a community.

Generally the designation isn't for public consumption. It's not like they have "Strike Team Five!" patches or anything, it's just put together on the fly. Who ever was running the show came up with the name it sounded like. You could hear him forming the teams on the air. "Let's call you Strike Team one..." But people are listening so they should really come up with something more appropriate. Shield Team or something. Maybe Line One, Line Two... it's a hockey town.

Yeah I get where this came from tactically. I'm more going up a level or two and talking about why he pulled that name out of the air. It isn't that it is inappropriate for public consumption. The mentality there is part of why we are listening to this in the first place.

[Holman]

I saw something referencing the claim that the cop who killed George Floyd had been involved in the deaths of two other unarmed black men during his career. Floyd makes three. Is this true?

Cops are not soldiers. Their job is to protect, not to kill. It seems to me that if you're a cop involved in a killing that wasn't self-defense, you should be counseled out into some other career.

[malchior]

I saw something referencing the claim that the cop who killed George Floyd had been involved in the deaths of two other unarmed black men during his career. Floyd makes three. Is this true?

Cops are not soldiers. Their job is to protect, not to kill. It seems to me that if you're a cop involved in a killing that wasn't self-defense, you should be counseled out into some other career.

Here are high level summaries of the details. To summarize, Chauvin shot and injured one guy 'who reached for his gun'. The other I think he was just present for and was cleared.

[malchior]

Ah yes - he must have died from 'excited delirum'. Also don't believe your eyes. This system is deeply corrupt. Anyone but a cop would be in a jail cell awaiting charges. I get he is really saying that patience is important but again no other class of citizen gets this deference or treatment (except the very, very wealthy).

[Skinypupy]

Well, that should certainly defuse the situation.

JFC, these fucking people...

[malchior]

There is a conspiracy-ish theory that an undercover cop started the fracas yesterday in Minneapolis. Whoever it was...they were super shady about it. They had a full gas mask on and carried an umbrella. They walked up with a hammer and broke the windows, got confronted by protestors, and then snuck away.

Some are claiming that they believe it was a St. Paul police officer (his ex-wife IDed him based on voice). It's pretty thin to say the least but the idea would be that breaking the windows of the Autozone across the street from the police precinct gave police the go to open up with the tear gas and rubber bullets. FWIW this is often a theme with protests that get violent. The protestors often make claims that the police rile up the crowd and/or infiltrate and raise hell.

[malchior]

Meanwhile...

[Unagi]

Holy shit

[Unagi]

Dylan (@dyllyp) Tweeted:
HOLY SHIT. The cop who started the vandalizing was outted by people who know him. His name is Jacob Pederson of the St. Paul PD. https://t.co/vgw8EqKz5j


Not sure how to make that work



(guess that's just more from what was posted above, sorry if I did this wrong)

but, that doesn't sound too Conspiracy to me, I'm thinking it's as horrible as it looks.

[malchior]

I had the same problem but the text exchange is allegedly with an ex-wife. The whole thing is beyond weird. He shows up with a hammer in this weird get up, breaks the windows, and then scoots away? You don't want to think that the police are this out of control but then again they are murdering people in daylight. There is also a crazy story that Floyd and Chauvin knew each other and had worked together. It just indicates there is a *lot* of bullshit social media disinformation flowing here so you have to be very skeptical of this stuff right now.

Edit: Here is that tweet fwiw to be taken with huge piles of salt.

[Isgrimnur]

[malchior]

They are literally burning down the 3rd precinct station now. Holy cow. It looks like wood piled against the facade so it may not be burning inside the police station yet but this is a major moment.