Racism in America (with data)

[Paingod]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

Before you snicker, remember the year and the president.

[Jaymann]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

Before you snicker, remember the year and the president.

Hopefully Agolf will be out of office by the time this case is concluded.

[Paingod]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

Before you snicker, remember the year and the president.

Hopefully Agolf will be out of office by the time this case is concluded.

Magic 8-Ball says "Plead guilty and walk free"

[Jaymann]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

Before you snicker, remember the year and the president.

Hopefully Agolf will be out of office by the time this case is concluded.

Magic 8-Ball says "Plead guilty and walk free"

Civil suit for violation of Civil Rights FTW.

[ImLawBoy]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

Before you snicker, remember the year and the president.

Hopefully Agolf will be out of office by the time this case is concluded.

Magic 8-Ball says "Plead guilty and walk free"

Civil suit for violation of Civil Rights FTW.

Are you going to be able to get all $38 out of the 17 year old's savings?

[Jaymann]

Can they garnish his wages for life?

[malchior]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

Before you snicker, remember the year and the president.

Hopefully Agolf will be out of office by the time this case is concluded.

Magic 8-Ball says "Plead guilty and walk free"

Civil suit for violation of Civil Rights FTW.

Are you going to be able to get all $38 out of the 17 year old's savings?

Whoever owns that gun is the one with the real problem civilly. Probably a bit of criminal exposure too.

[Isgrimnur]

And since he crossed state lines, it's a federal case.

[malchior]

And since he crossed state lines, it's a federal case.

I don't think so...yet at least. The criminal case was filed is in WI. He'll likely need to appear in IL and then be extradited to WI.

Edit: Details - an extradiction hearing is scheduled at least for now for tomorrow.

[Paingod]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

Before you snicker, remember the year and the president.

Hopefully Agolf will be out of office by the time this case is concluded.

Magic 8-Ball says "Plead guilty and walk free"

Civil suit for violation of Civil Rights FTW.

Were I a 17-year old doughy double-murderer, I'd take my chances with getting the OJ slapped out of my paychecks over whatever else is going to happen to him in prison for the rest of his natural life.

[Jaymann]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

Before you snicker, remember the year and the president.

Hopefully Agolf will be out of office by the time this case is concluded.

Magic 8-Ball says "Plead guilty and walk free"

Civil suit for violation of Civil Rights FTW.

Were I a 17-year old doughy double-murderer, I'd take my chances with getting the OJ slapped out of my paychecks over whatever else is going to happen to him in prison for the rest of his natural life.

And likely in solitary confinement for his own protection.

[malchior]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

Before you snicker, remember the year and the president.

Hopefully Agolf will be out of office by the time this case is concluded.

Magic 8-Ball says "Plead guilty and walk free"

Civil suit for violation of Civil Rights FTW.

Were I a 17-year old doughy double-murderer, I'd take my chances with getting the OJ slapped out of my paychecks over whatever else is going to happen to him in prison for the rest of his natural life.

And likely in solitary confinement for his own protection.

It is very possible he'll find he has a lot of Aryan friends if he goes to the right prison.

[Blackhawk]

It is very possible he'll find he has a lot of Aryan friends if he goes to the right prison.

Exactly that. The Proud Boys/3%er types have a very strong contingent in prison. Any number of convicted white non-racists will pretend to be white supremacists, right down to the head shaving and tattoos, just to get in with the white supremacists in prison for protection. He'd likely be 'adopted' as a hero in a heartbeat and given protection. He'd also spend years having his extremist views reinforced and strengthened.

[Grifman]

The video of this incident is out there. This is not as cut in dry as stated in this thread so far. The video does not show activity ahead if this. It shows the shooter running, tripping, and then being attacked by the three he shot. The shooter is an idiot and needs to pay. The people who were shot were also contributors to what happened. The police should have a minimum detained the "person of interest" untill the incident was sorted, this should have resulted in an arrest. I do not think the protestor label should apply to those who were shot.

The shooter shot and killed someone before that. See malchior's post above with the Twitter thread.

It's more grey than initially thought but he's still the main escalator and he traveled to Kenosha to look for a fight. Even if you believe civilians have a duty to protect other people's commercial property with lethal force (?), its not the duty of an untrained, agitated 17-year-old. He had no business being there with that rifle.

He made a bad and stupid decision to come armed to the protests - I doubt that few would deny this. Teens are well known for not making the best decisions and assessing risk well. But if he was acting in self defense, then criminal liability is very different. From what I've read, the first shooting may or may not be self defense also. A jury might find him civilly negligent or responsible but his actions might not be criminal. The whole thing seems rather confused right now.

[Little Raven]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

He can't. Murder is a state crime. The President has no authority to pardon someone that Wisconsin has found guilty.

That said.....I think people here are vastly overestimating how much trouble he is in. I suspect he will go to jail, but I suspect it's not going to be for 2 counts of murder one.

[malchior]

The video of this incident is out there. This is not as cut in dry as stated in this thread so far. The video does not show activity ahead if this. It shows the shooter running, tripping, and then being attacked by the three he shot. The shooter is an idiot and needs to pay. The people who were shot were also contributors to what happened. The police should have a minimum detained the "person of interest" untill the incident was sorted, this should have resulted in an arrest. I do not think the protestor label should apply to those who were shot.

The shooter shot and killed someone before that. See malchior's post above with the Twitter thread.

It's more grey than initially thought but he's still the main escalator and he traveled to Kenosha to look for a fight. Even if you believe civilians have a duty to protect other people's commercial property with lethal force (?), its not the duty of an untrained, agitated 17-year-old. He had no business being there with that rifle.

He made a bad and stupid decision to come armed to the protests - I doubt that few would deny this. Teens are well known for not making the best decisions and assessing risk well. But if he was acting in self defense, then criminal liability is very different. From what I've read, the first shooting may or may not be self defense also. A jury might find him civilly negligent or responsible but his actions might not be criminal. The whole thing seems rather confused right now.

Calling these self-defense is a pretty big stretch. Every person shot was unarmed unless you stretch it to define weapon to include a skateboard. And that second group of people were trying to stop someone they just saw shoot someone else. It is confusing but the self-defense angle is paper thin. But likely would need to jury to weigh in on that and who knows how that'll go in our broken land. My guess is a plea to avoid the risk.

[ImLawBoy]

The video of this incident is out there. This is not as cut in dry as stated in this thread so far. The video does not show activity ahead if this. It shows the shooter running, tripping, and then being attacked by the three he shot. The shooter is an idiot and needs to pay. The people who were shot were also contributors to what happened. The police should have a minimum detained the "person of interest" untill the incident was sorted, this should have resulted in an arrest. I do not think the protestor label should apply to those who were shot.

The shooter shot and killed someone before that. See malchior's post above with the Twitter thread.

It's more grey than initially thought but he's still the main escalator and he traveled to Kenosha to look for a fight. Even if you believe civilians have a duty to protect other people's commercial property with lethal force (?), its not the duty of an untrained, agitated 17-year-old. He had no business being there with that rifle.

He made a bad and stupid decision to come armed to the protests - I doubt that few would deny this. Teens are well known for not making the best decisions and assessing risk well. But if he was acting in self defense, then criminal liability is very different. From what I've read, the first shooting may or may not be self defense also. A jury might find him civilly negligent or responsible but his actions might not be criminal. The whole thing seems rather confused right now.

I'll preface this by stating that I'm not a criminal lawyer, but I suspect a self defense claim goes out the window for a felony murder charge (i.e., a death that is caused by the felon in the course of committing a felony). If he were also committing a felony (and I don't know that he was, but there may be something about his possession of the firearm or transporting it over state lines or something), then I think a prosecutor could go for a felony murder charge.

[coopasonic]

But likely would need to jury to weigh in on that and who knows how that'll go in our broken land. My guess is a plea to avoid the risk.

I'm pretty sure we know how it would go.

[Little Raven]

Calling these self-defense is a pretty big stretch. Every person shot was unarmed unless you stretch it to define weapon to include a skateboard.

Uhh...no. At least one his attackers was literally carrying a pistol when he was shot. Another had just kicked him to the pavement. Add in the fact that there is an active riot going on, and I suspect your odds of finding one person in 12 who is sympathetic to him are pretty good. He would be insane to plea. Or at least to plea to murder. Maybe some kind of manslaughter thing.

[malchior]

Calling these self-defense is a pretty big stretch. Every person shot was unarmed unless you stretch it to define weapon to include a skateboard.

Uhh...no. At least one his attackers was literally carrying a pistol when he was shot. Another had just kicked him to the pavement. Add in the fact that there is an active riot going on, and I suspect your odds of finding one person in 12 who is sympathetic to him are pretty good. He would be insane to plea.

Uhhh yes. One had a pistol that was detected by people going frame by frame through the video. He'll be coached to say he saw it but it's a stretch since the man with the pistol wasn't even fired at. They'll stack additional charges on him. Getting kicked isn't enough to use deadly force in Wisconsin which has no stand your ground statute. It adds up to this won't be some simple case and the odds on these type of prosecutions almost certainly suggest he'll plea. He'd be foolish not to plea.

[Little Raven]

He'd be foolish not to plea.

Well, one of us is going to look dumb in a few months. Maybe it'll be me. But when you literally change your argument from "they were all unarmed!" to "well, ok, one them was literally HOLDING a deadly weapon in his hand...but it was like, totally hard to see..." from one post to the next.....

It does not inspire confidence.

[malchior]

But likely would need to jury to weigh in on that and who knows how that'll go in our broken land. My guess is a plea to avoid the risk.

I'm pretty sure we know how it would go.

That's the thing here - I've listened to experts talk all day about how this isn't going to be simple. Trials are unpredictable. Except for cops. Cops go to trial because historically they win in front of juries. And so maybe he gets treated like a cop. It's plausible. Anyway, in general neither side is inclined to go to trial on something like this where the intent behind the facts are so wildly in dispute. It's a dice roll.

[malchior]

He'd be foolish not to plea.

Well, one of us is going to look dumb in a few months. Maybe it'll be me.

Well that illuminates how you see 'discussion'. I'm not saying I'm right but more likely to see the outcome I describe (a plea) based on what the experts say. I'm not looking to be right...instead I seek to understand the math and likely outcomes...but by all means keep score.

But when you literally change your argument from "they were all unarmed!" to "well, ok, one them was literally HOLDING a deadly weapon in his hand...but it was like, totally hard to see..." from one post to the next.....

It does not inspire confidence.

Picking up on the edit. Wow. That is incredibly disingenuous. Show me where I said that *everyone* was unarmed. I said the people shot had no weapons -- beyond a skateboard. That is true from what we currently know. The NY Times post -- which I posted and talked about extensively -- found someone in the *frame* with a pistol. Not the people shot. They weren't fired at. I even speculate how that might influence the situation but this is some bullshit. I'm not looking to impress anyone less you if this is the way you want to 'discuss things'.

[Little Raven]

I'm not saying I'm right but more likely to see the outcome I describe (a plea) based on what the experts say.

Where are these experts saying he's going to plea to murder? I haven't seen anything remotely like that.

[Holman]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

Before you snicker, remember the year and the president.

Rally-goers get automatic pardons.

[malchior]

I'm not saying I'm right but more likely to see the outcome I describe (a plea) based on what the experts say.

Where are these experts saying he's going to plea to murder? I haven't seen anything remotely like that.

I don't know what your problem is but you are setting up a line of strawmen to knock down. I said a plea. I didn't say to murder. There is a high probability he will plea out to something. A very high probability since he'll be tied to 2 deaths and 1 injury.

[LawBeefaroni]

I have seen photos of a kid (5 YO or so) with a semi auto rifle that appears to be NFA. They are said to be of this Rittenhouse guy but not posting until/unless verified.

But considering that the rally in January was in Des Moines and he went up to Wisconsin on "patrol", this kid sure gets around and I doubt its by himself or on his own dime.

[Jaymann]

What are the betting odds that Trump pardons the 17-year old shooter? I mean, he was basically lock-step with the Trump ethos, right?

Before you snicker, remember the year and the president.

Rally-goers get automatic pardons.

He heard Agolf say he could get away with shooting someone on 5th Avenue, so he decided to put it to the test.

[Brian]

But considering that the rally in January was in Des Moines and he went up to Wisconsin on "patrol", this kid sure gets around and I doubt its by himself or on his own dime.

I saw an article earlier that said his mother drove him (with his rifle) to the protest area in Wisconsin.

I'll try to find and post the article.

[malchior]

But considering that the rally in January was in Des Moines and he went up to Wisconsin on "patrol", this kid sure gets around and I doubt its by himself or on his own dime.

I saw an article earlier that said his mother drove him (with his rifle) to the protest area in Wisconsin.

I'll try to find and post the article.

Wow. That'd be really something.

[$iljanus]

But considering that the rally in January was in Des Moines and he went up to Wisconsin on "patrol", this kid sure gets around and I doubt its by himself or on his own dime.

I saw an article earlier that said his mother drove him (with his rifle) to the protest area in Wisconsin.

I'll try to find and post the article.

“MOM! CAN I GET A RIDE TO THE RIOT?”

“NO, YOU GOTTA CLEAN YOUR ROOM!”

“BUT MA, I WAS GOING TO TOSHI STATION TO PICK UP SOME POWER CONVERTERS AND SHOOT LOOTERS!”

“WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?”

“IT’S FROM STAR WARS! JEEEZ MA!”

[Little Raven]

I don't know what your problem is but you are setting up a line of strawmen to knock down

Well, you do love keeping score.

I said a plea.

Oh, well, then sure, we agree. I can totally see him pleaing to, I dunno, "illegally transporting a weapon across state lines" or something like that. MAYBE even some kind of manslaughter charge. But none of that is going to give the "life sentence without parole" that so many around here were talking about a few hours ago....which was the point I was trying to make. As you say, this is NOT simple. No jury that you form out of Wisconsin is going to treat this kid as a mass shooter. Kenosha was literally on fire when this went down. There's a very good chance a significant portion of the population is going to view this kid sympathetically, though probably not to the point of letting him off the hook entirely.

[Brian]

Can't find the article now and I think it's been pulled.

I did find another source that claims he drove himself.

Rittenhouse appeared to bring the same rifle with him to the scene. The 17-year-old drove about 20 miles from Antioch to Kenosha, also toting a medical kit, to partake in what referred to as his “job.”

“Part of my job also is to protect people,” Rittenhouse told the Daily Caller moments before he allegedly began shooting. “If someone is hurt, I’m running into harm’s way. That’s why I have my rifle. I’ve got to protect myself, obviously.”

[malchior]

But considering that the rally in January was in Des Moines and he went up to Wisconsin on "patrol", this kid sure gets around and I doubt its by himself or on his own dime.

I saw an article earlier that said his mother drove him (with his rifle) to the protest area in Wisconsin.

I'll try to find and post the article.

“MOM! CAN I GET A RIDE TO THE RIOT?”

“NO, YOU GOTTA CLEAN YOUR ROOM!”

“BUT MA, I WAS GOING TO TOSHI STATION TO PICK UP SOME POWER CONVERTERS AND SHOOT LOOTERS!”

“WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?”

“IT’S FROM STAR WARS! JEEEZ MA!”

I WANT TO WATER THE TREE OF LIBERTY. CAN I USE ONE OF THE RACE WAR GUNS? PUHLLLLEASE!

[LawBeefaroni]

Opportunists lining up wide and deep.




Lucian Wood is best know for defending Richard Jewell but more recently ran the Nick Sandmann offense.


Oh, and look at his current twitter profile:

Attorney at L. Lin Wood, P.C. Speak Truth. BE FEARLESS. #FightBack #WorldOfTheBlocked #WWG1WGA

As mentioned in another thread (or was it this one?), WWG1WGA is the QAnon handshake.

[Little Raven]

That is incredibly disingenuous. Show me where I said that *everyone* was unarmed. I said the people shot had no weapons -- beyond a skateboard. That is true from what we currently know. The NY Times post -- which I posted and talked about extensively -- found someone in the *frame* with a pistol. Not the people shot. They weren't fired at. I even speculate how that might influence the situation but this is some bullshit. I'm not looking to impress anyone less you if this is the way you want to 'discuss things'.

Apologies, Malchior, but I'm very confused.

You said this:

Every person shot was unarmed unless you stretch it to define weapon to include a skateboard.

I posted what appears to be conclusive evidence that one of the people shot was, in fact, holding a pistol....which is the exact opposite of "unarmed." The guy that article is talking about...the one with the gun...is the street medic that was shot in the arm.

Now, maybe my article is in error. It's possible....the story is still coming together. But you are making a very confident assertion that appears to be contradicted by the facts as we currently know them. I'm not trying to offend you, and I apologize if I have.

[malchior]

Yeah. Apparently I am confusing the gun at the first shooting with he second shooting. It still is odd to me because he twists and shoots him nearly blind. I can't say he didn't see it but that is the tail end of the shooting. What I was hearing today on the TV box was that he had a thin case for self defense but that it is challenging in Wisconsin. Especially at that point he is essentially fleeing from a murder.

[Little Raven]

Especially at that point he is essentially fleeing from a murder.

I expect that to get very muddy as well. While I am unaware of any video that clearly captures the first shooting, there's plenty of video that shows the two squaring off before the incident, and the victim is acting SUPER aggressively. Yelling, threatening, throwing things. Now, that probably doesn't justify lethal force in and of itself, but when you combine it with the other events of that night.....well, I think it's going to get very messy.

[malchior]

Can't find the article now and I think it's been pulled.

I did find another source that claims he drove himself.

Rittenhouse appeared to bring the same rifle with him to the scene. The 17-year-old drove about 20 miles from Antioch to Kenosha, also toting a medical kit, to partake in what referred to as his “job.”

“Part of my job also is to protect people,” Rittenhouse told the Daily Caller moments before he allegedly began shooting. “If someone is hurt, I’m running into harm’s way. That’s why I have my rifle. I’ve got to protect myself, obviously.”

Another claim of this ilk - I don't consider it confirmed...but wow. There are some saying this picture was taken in Madison..but perhaps the same night.

[LawBeefaroni]

Looks a lot like Madison in the bigger photo. Also, looks like the boy is there as well.