Racism in America (with data)

[LawBeefaroni]

I'm not for banishing the word from art (literature, movies, etc.) but I think that it is now time for us all to realize that the word needs to disappear, and everyone needs to stop using it.

Everyone?

[Apollo]

I'm not for banishing the word from art (literature, movies, etc.) but I think that it is now time for us all to realize that the word needs to disappear, and everyone needs to stop using it.

Everyone?

Yes, everyone. I can't think of any reason that it should be acceptable for anyone to use the N-word.

[YellowKing]

I'm not really paying attention to who's on what side of the whole Huckleberry Finn argument, but here's my take on it:

When I was taught the book in school, the n-word was present and we were taught that it was there both as a representation of the time, but more importantly because it was Twain's way of getting his points across about racial disparity. The use of the word even back then as a high school student shocked me, but I wouldn't say in a negative way. It just brought me that much closer to the time period and the ugly way that blacks were treated. Of course, me being a white kid, that's about the extent that I could understand in terms of its use.

It wasn't until much later in life that I read alternative opinions that it was over-used, or in the most extreme cases that Twain himself was a racist. A quick Google search will bring up dozens of articles arguing both sides of the issue equally passionately.

Personally I don't have a problem with the word being changed for school editions or even for sale to the general public, and that has already happened (hence my "this is irrelevant" post). We're arguing about whether something should be done when the decision has already been made. Would I prefer that there is some sort of disclaimer that the original work has been edited/interpreted? Absolutely - we do the same for literature that has been translated, or abridged editions. I don't think it's a big deal, particularly if someone can access the uncensored copies if they really want.

[RunningMn9]

Let me ask you point blank then. Do you advocate that we ban all original works of Huckleberry Finn and all that entails?

No, as I stated above. It’s a book, I really don’t care one way or another.

I was just pointing out that this notion that Huckleberry Finn is a “historical work” is completely arbitrary. We simply said that it was so. And that’s ok, but the idea that it’s some sacred text that has to keep the N word in it, I just don’t get it.

[RunningMn9]

I'm not for banishing the word from art (literature, movies, etc.) but I think that it is now time for us all to realize that the word needs to disappear, and everyone needs to stop using it.

Disappear from everywhere except sacred texts, which much protect the word at all costs.

[RunningMn9]

Yes, everyone. I can't think of any reason that it should be acceptable for anyone to use the N-word.

I don’t know. I would have agreed with this two weeks ago, but I’ve been thinking a lot about the videos that Emmanuel Acho has been doing (Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man), and I found one of his points compelling.

After hundreds of years of systemic racial oppression, and using words like the N word as part of that hate - maybe now isn’t the time for White people to tell people what words they can’t use (because white people can’t use it).

[pr0ner]

I'll let Adam Serwer answer for me.

Can I tell you a secret? I don’t give a shit if they edit the N word out of Mark Twain’s works either.

My life isn’t improved, in any way imaginable, by reading the N word in a book. I am in no way helped in any way (at all) in watching episodes of TV shows that feature black face.

Not having access to either doesn’t impact me or harm me in any conceivable way.

I love Always Sunny, and the Lethal Weapon episodes are funny and are obviously not intended to harm anyone. I don’t care at all if I can never stream them on Hulu again.

If these things are offensive to someone, or if there’s a heightened sensitivity about given the circumstances of today - then pull them. Edit Mark Twain. *It doesn’t matter*.

If tomorrow, every copy of Tom Sawyer blinked out of existence, literally nothing would change and civilization wouldn’t come to a screeching halt at the loss. It’s not even the tiniest bit important. Like on a scale of 1 to 1000, it’s still a 0.

You sure do have a lot of words to say on a subject you allegedly don't care about. Are you GreenGoo in disguise?

[stimpy]

I'm not for banishing the word from art (literature, movies, etc.) but I think that it is now time for us all to realize that the word needs to disappear, and everyone needs to stop using it.

Everyone?

Yes, everyone. I can't think of any reason that it should be acceptable for anyone to use the N-word.

But then rappers wont have a word that rhymes with bigger.....

[Apollo]

...After hundreds of years of systemic racial oppression, and using words like the N word as part of that hate - maybe now isn’t the time for White people to tell people what words they can’t use (because white people can’t use it).

I wasn't talking about white people telling black people to do anything. I actually think that now, while we are trying to reanalyze things we have taken for granted about race including the words we use, is the perfect time to get rid of the N-word for good.

[RunningMn9]

You sure do have a lot of words to say on a subject you allegedly don't care about. Are you GreenGoo in disguise?

I care a lot about SOMETHING here, but it's not a book or episodes of old TV shows. I'm sick of people telling victims to just deal with the symbols of their oppression, because it's REALLY important to us that we get to see the N word in our literature, or black face jokes in our sitcoms.

[RunningMn9]

I wasn't talking about white people telling black people to do anything. I actually think that now, while we are trying to reanalyze things we have taken for granted about race including the words we use, is the perfect time to get rid of the N-word for good.

That would be nice. I'm not interested in telling the victims that have appropriated that word that they can't use it anymore in the way that they've chosen to use it as a means to lessen its power.

[pr0ner]

You sure do have a lot of words to say on a subject you allegedly don't care about. Are you GreenGoo in disguise?

I care a lot about SOMETHING here, but it's not a book or episodes of old TV shows. I'm sick of people telling victims to just deal with the symbols of their oppression, because it's REALLY important to us that we get to see the N word in our literature, or black face jokes in our sitcoms.

Are you sick of someone like Adam Serwer holding the opinion that already produced material should be allowed to exist and tweeting out that opinion?

[RunningMn9]

Why on earth would I care? Other people are allowed to have opinions and tweet them.

[pr0ner]

Why on earth would I care? Other people are allowed to have opinions and tweet them.

Yeah, this convo's pointless now.

[RunningMn9]

Yeah, this convo's pointless now.

I'm guessing it started that way.

[pr0ner]

Yeah, this convo's pointless now.

I'm guessing it started that way.

[Jaymann]

I'm not for banishing the word from art (literature, movies, etc.) but I think that it is now time for us all to realize that the word needs to disappear, and everyone needs to stop using it.

Everyone?

Yes, everyone. I can't think of any reason that it should be acceptable for anyone to use the N-word.

But then rappers wont have a word that rhymes with bigger.....

They can use trigger, with at least two connotations.

[Alefroth]

I'm not for banishing the word from art (literature, movies, etc.) but I think that it is now time for us all to realize that the word needs to disappear, and everyone needs to stop using it.

Everyone?

Yes, everyone. I can't think of any reason that it should be acceptable for anyone to use the N-word.

But then rappers wont have a word that rhymes with bigger.....

Thanks for reinforcing everyone's assumptions about you.

[stimpy]

Oh stfu already, Karen.
You must consider yourself a big man around here if you can speak for everyone.
It was a joke. Get over yourself.

[RunningMn9]

Yeah, this convo's pointless now.

I'm guessing it started that way.

I have to admit, I enjoy that you find my comment rolly eyes worthy, but not your own. I assumed that if me agreeing that other people can different opinions and express them meant that this convo was pointless, that it seemed reasonable that it was always pointless. I’m not sure what you were hoping that I would answer to make this have some kind of point.

[Unagi]

I'm not for banishing the word from art (literature, movies, etc.) but I think that it is now time for us all to realize that the word needs to disappear, and everyone needs to stop using it.

Everyone?

Yes, everyone. I can't think of any reason that it should be acceptable for anyone to use the N-word.

But then rappers wont have a word that rhymes with bigger.....

/snigger

You forgot the vigor and rigor of a digger who’s been bit by a chigger but thinks it was a jigger.

[Holman]

(wrong thread)

[LordMortis]

who’s been bit by a jigger

I always thought it was chigger, I guess I've never seen it spelled... and never been bit nor actually seen one... (except to pour a drink)

[Unagi]

who’s been bit by a jigger

I always thought it was chigger, I guess I've never seen it spelled... and never been bit nor actually seen one...

You may be right.
I’m in your boat.

I’ll correct it.

[LordMortis]

who’s been bit by a jigger

I always thought it was chigger, I guess I've never seen it spelled... and never been bit nor actually seen one...

You may be right.
I’m in your boat.

I’ll correct it.

I'm not. TIL

https://www.google.com/search?q=jigger+bug

[Unagi]

who’s been bit by a jigger

I always thought it was chigger, I guess I've never seen it spelled... and never been bit nor actually seen one...

You may be right.
I’m in your boat.

I’ll correct it.

I'm not. TIL

https://www.google.com/search?q=jigger+bug

Not so fast.
https://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and ... gger-bites

[Unagi]

I’ve updated my rhyme to include both.

[Paingod]

Yes, everyone. I can't think of any reason that it should be acceptable for anyone to use the N-word.

I don’t know. I would have agreed with this two weeks ago, but I’ve been thinking a lot about the videos that Emmanuel Acho has been doing (Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man), and I found one of his points compelling.

After hundreds of years of systemic racial oppression, and using words like the N word as part of that hate - maybe now isn’t the time for White people to tell people what words they can’t use (because white people can’t use it).

I'm kind of with Apollo on this one. It shouldn't matter what color your skin is - profanity is profanity. Setting aside one word and saying it's perfectly fine for a specific racial group to litter their speech with it almost as a form of punctuation while telling other groups it's off-limits comes across as extremely hypocritical. At best, it confuses the issue for a lot of people. White people aren't the only ones who've said this, either. I've heard this same topic touched on by black people in the past.

I get the all lives can't matter until black lives do line and agree with it, but not the desire to protect racial slurs as some sort of cultural heritage. That sounds like the same logic people are using to defend the Confederate flag.

[LordMortis]

I'm kind of with Apollo on this one. It shouldn't matter what color your skin is - profanity is profanity. Setting aside one word and saying it's perfectly fine for a specific racial group to litter their speech with it almost as a form of punctuation while telling other groups it's off-limits comes across as extremely hypocritical. At best, it confuses the issue for a lot of people. White people aren't the only ones who've said this, either. I've heard this same topic touched on by black people in the past.

I wish an answer was as clear to me as it is to others. I hate the idea of policing words. If we police words, I can understand how taking control of language of oppression/exclusion can help empower the oppressed/disenfranchised. But I can also understand how it could deceptively perpetuate oppression/exclusion on much more internalized basis. I don't see good answers and this can be extended to all forms of bigotry. And still, I hate the idea of policing words and I tend to quickly distrust people who seem to try and control the world by controlling language, as if changing the arbitrariness of words and meanings changes their reference point to fit a personal world view. Word are magic but they aren't that kind of magic.

I hope someone with more clarity than I have comes along and figures it out and they also have the ability to break through my thick skull and teach me.

[noxiousdog]

Can someone explain to me why they care whether or not there are editions of Huckleberry Finn with the N-word in them?

I feel like I must be missing something here.

Because it's a historical work. They whole point of reading classical literature is to put us in the context of the time and culture the book was written and teach empathy towards the

If you whitewash it, you remove context.

It also will get to the point where there aren't unedited versions of Huck FInn and definitely won't be taught in middle school or college. I mean, when's the last time you got a book somewhere other than Amazon?

I'm not passionate about it, but I don't like it. I couldn't care less about sitcom episodes.

[LawBeefaroni]

I'm kind of with Apollo on this one. It shouldn't matter what color your skin is - profanity is profanity. Setting aside one word and saying it's perfectly fine for a specific racial group to litter their speech with it almost as a form of punctuation while telling other groups it's off-limits comes across as extremely hypocritical. At best, it confuses the issue for a lot of people. White people aren't the only ones who've said this, either. I've heard this same topic touched on by black people in the past.

I wish an answer was as clear to me as it is to others. I hate the idea of policing words. If we police words, I can understand how taking control of language of oppression/exclusion can help empower the oppressed/disenfranchised. But I can also understand how it could deceptively perpetuate oppression/exclusion on much more internalized basis. I don't see good answers and this can be extended to all forms of bigotry. And still, I hate the idea of policing words and I tend to quickly distrust people who seem to try and control the world by controlling language, as if changing the arbitrariness of words and meanings changes their reference point to fit a personal world view. Word are magic but they aren't that kind of magic.

I hope someone with more clarity than I have comes along and figures it out and they also have the ability to break through my thick skull and teach me.

The word isn't the problem. The sentiment is. Banning the word, and I'll ignore the 1A implications, is just tackling a symptom. It will make some people feel better to have a clear and "equitable" solution to their confusion. But it won't change anything.

[hepcat]

Can someone explain to me why they care whether or not there are editions of Huckleberry Finn with the N-word in them?

I feel like I must be missing something here.

Because it's a historical work. They whole point of reading classical literature is to put us in the context of the time and culture the book was written and teach empathy towards the

If you whitewash it, you remove context.

It also will get to the point where there aren't unedited versions of Huck FInn and definitely won't be taught in middle school or college. I mean, when's the last time you got a book somewhere other than Amazon?

I'm not passionate about it, but I don't like it. I couldn't care less about sitcom episodes.

I am more passionate about it as I don't want a Fahrenheit 451 world, no matter how well meaning the folks with the flamethrowers think they are.

I'm fine with moving statues and monuments honoring civil war heroes and other racist figures from history to museums where they can add context to their existence, and I'm fine with removing the confederate flag from...well...anywhere, as that should have been done ages ago, imho.

But don't erase our history entirely, for crying out loud. Even Mein Kampf should be readily available to those who want to read it. I hate that it exists, but I will scream bloody murder if it's banned.

Now, if people want to ALSO have a white washed version of some stuff available, that's okay I guess. Just don't make that the ONLY version available.

[LordMortis]

The word isn't the problem. The sentiment is. Banning the word, and I'll ignore the 1A implications, is just tackling a symptom. It will make some people feel better to have a clear and "equitable" solution to their confusion. But it won't change anything.

That is one of the chambers of the heart of where I sit. In some ways taking control of a word, neuters it. In some ways, it takes a sentiment, a connotation and it dig it in deeper. I'm not an oracle, I don't know what makes it which way.

I honestly don't know what will or won't change by word prohibition. It won't stop a bigot from being a bigot, but it might mitigate against teaching children to internalize bigotry or internalizing self worth based on others bigotry nor even casual connotations.

I mean politics and advertising and sophists and psychologists and motivational speakers, religious figure, poets, and snakeoil salesman have been attempting to police words at least since we stared translating and teaching ancient Greek philosophy and literature. I'm assuming for as long as we've had language. They have to be doing it for a reason.

[LawBeefaroni]

The word isn't the problem. The sentiment is. Banning the word, and I'll ignore the 1A implications, is just tackling a symptom. It will make some people feel better to have a clear and "equitable" solution to their confusion. But it won't change anything.

That is one of the chambers of the heart of where I sit. In some ways taking control of a word, neuters it. In some ways, it takes a sentiment, a connotation and it dig it in deeper. I'm not an oracle, I don't know what makes it which way.

I honestly don't know what will or won't change by word prohibition. It won't stop a bigot from being a bigot, but it might mitigate against teaching children to internalize bigotry or internalizing self worth based on others bigotry nor even casual connotations.

I mean politics and advertising and sophists and psychologists and motivational speakers, religious figure, poets, and snakeoil salesman have been attempting to police words at least since we stared translating and teaching ancient Greek philosophy and literature. I'm assuming for as long as we've had language. They have to be doing it for a reason.

There are numerous other hateful slurs that exist. If we somehow managed to ban on of them, the others will just get more usage. It's a fruitless game of whack-a-mole. Get at the cause, not the symptoms. Make it socially unacceptable to use any slur, not one particular slur. Let the words themselves remain as markers for anyone boldly racist enough to use them.

[WYBaugh]

Can someone explain to me why they care whether or not there are editions of Huckleberry Finn with the N-word in them?

I feel like I must be missing something here.

Because it's a historical work. They whole point of reading classical literature is to put us in the context of the time and culture the book was written and teach empathy towards the

If you whitewash it, you remove context.

It also will get to the point where there aren't unedited versions of Huck FInn and definitely won't be taught in middle school or college. I mean, when's the last time you got a book somewhere other than Amazon?

I'm not passionate about it, but I don't like it. I couldn't care less about sitcom episodes.

I am more passionate about it as I don't want a Fahrenheit 451 world, no matter how well meaning the folks with the flamethrowers think they are.

I'm fine with moving statues and monuments honoring civil war heroes and other racist figures from history to museums where they can add context to their existence, and I'm fine with removing the confederate flag from...well...anywhere, as that should have been done ages ago, imho.

But don't erase our history entirely, for crying out loud. Even Mein Kampf should be readily available to those who want to read it. I hate that it exists, but I will scream bloody murder if it's banned.

Now, if people want to ALSO have a white washed version of some stuff available, that's okay I guess. Just don't make that the ONLY version available.

I'm with you Hep

[Blackhawk]

Can someone explain to me why they care whether or not there are editions of Huckleberry Finn with the N-word in them?

I feel like I must be missing something here.

Because it's a historical work. They whole point of reading classical literature is to put us in the context of the time and culture the book was written and teach empathy towards the

If you whitewash it, you remove context.

This is where I stand. The original context and language matter to really understand a work. But I do think there is room for edited versions as well. FWIW, the first version I read was edited, and that was clear back in '81 or so. But the removed content shouldn't be ignored. There should be a forward or appendix discussing the missing context.

As to who can use what word, I may agree in principle, but it isn't my battle to fight, and it isn't my decision to make. The victim has to have that power, and we're not the victim (well, most of us aren't.)

[Jaymon]

Let me provide an alternate example. Roald Dahl beloved childrens author. last year at my house for family reading time, we read Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and enjoyed it, so we decided to read the sequel. Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator. Now I read this as a child and had fond memories. And its Roald Dahl right? Matilda, The BFG, the Fantastic Mr Fox, James and the Giant Peach. But partway through the book, the president of the united states attempt a conversation with several foreign nations, and it results in a spew of racial jokes. I had to emergency edit the book as I was reading, because as a completely normal person in 2019, I could not utter those jokes, there is no place for them. This was not historical context, it was just jokes for the sake of jokes.

Sensitive material from the past is subjective, but it also runs on a scale. Mark Twain using the N word could be argued that its an artifact of its time.
Blackface in an episode of Golden girls or slanty eyed jokes in a childrens book, not sure those are really historical artifacts, but just crude racial humor and now we know better.

Do we erase these? Try to wipe the slate clean and put our past mistakes behind us? Or do we leave them on display, as a reminder that we were once bad, but we need to do better? I can't answer that. Many people have many opinions about it, and I am still conflicted about what is right, because it does seem to run on a scale, but not everyone puts the cut off mark at the same point.

However, here is the most important thing. From a racial sense (since this is the racial thread) as a white male, I am the perpetrator here, I am the one who committed the crime, I am the guilty party. It should not be up to me to determine the punishment or set the boundary or draw the line between not far enough and too far. We don't have an impartial third party available to judge us, so we must ask the victims, the injured party to provide judgement and sentence. The children of Martin Luther King Jr, the family of Trayvon Martin, the daughter of George Floyd, these are the people who should decide.

[hepcat]

Much of rap music is riddled with misogyny and the glorification of violence and crime. But I will also defend its right to exist should women and the victims of those crimes demand it be banned. Again, I don't agree with it, and I find much of it reprehensible (sometimes to the point that even I question whether or not it should be allowed to exist), but I hate censorship even more.

[Unagi]

I understand the concerns of censorship.


Honest question: is what Netflix doing considered 'censorship' ?

I don't know if a company is responsible for making all material available to their customers.

[hepcat]

What is netflix doing?