Octopus Overlords

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:13 pmWut? This is not even close to accurate aside from the prohibition against collecting race data.

Uh...what's not accurate? Your article doesn't seem to contradict anything I said.

I assume you mean to say that American style identity politics is not yet the norm in France. I agree with that - quite the opposite, in fact. France has spent the last 40 years officially pretending race does not exist. (they banned the use of the word in government documents in 1978) But they couldn't keep it out forever. Identity politics has landed in recent years, and manifested more fully with BLM protests. When people in Paris are protesting a death that occurred in Minneapolis with calls of "Defund the Police"...well, that's not something that can really be ignored, and French politicians are taking note. (as you note, they aren't fans.)

They don't collect racial data because of what happened to Jews in WW2. Also, they have some high minded belief that they have a race-agnostic society that goes back to de-colonization in the early 60s. And they are actively pushing back on importing American identity politics.

Yes to all of this. I don't think we actually disagree about anything.

Little Raven wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:48 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:13 pmWut? This is not even close to accurate aside from the prohibition against collecting race data.

Uh...what's not accurate? Your article doesn't seem to contradict anything I said.

It literally is titled 'The French Don’t Understand American Identity Politics'. You said they are importing it. Seems like a direct contradiction especially when you go on to the below. There were some solidarity marches but it's hardly a material change in the landscape there.

I assume you mean to say that American style identity politics is not yet the norm in France. I agree with that - quite the opposite, in fact. France has spent the last 40 years officially pretending race does not exist. (they banned the use of the word in government documents in 1978) But they couldn't keep it out forever. Identity politics has landed in recent years, and manifested more fully with BLM protests. When people in Paris are protesting a death that occurred in Minneapolis...well, that's not something that can really be ignored, and French politicians are taking note. (as you note, they aren't fans.)

Macron actively rejected changes when people were upset about gaps in knowledge about pandemic response and the BLM solidarity marches have had even less impact.

Yes to all of this. I don't think we actually disagree about anything.

I'm beyond super confused about your point then. It is similar in that there is supposed race-blindness involved but they aren't alike in a meaningful way. They have completely different roots. And American-style identity politics aren't moving the needle there. I'd say we don't disagree on the facts but instead disagree on what they mean.

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:02 pmIt literally is titled 'The French Don’t Understand American Identity Politics'. You said they are importing it. Seems like a direct contradiction especially when you go on to the below.

Not at all. The French ELITE don't understand identity politics, because they've spent 40 years training themselves not to. The French PEOPLE, on the other hand, don't seem to have any problem with it.

And American-style identity politics aren't moving the needle there.

Macron disagrees with you. He can see the writing on the wall. He intends to fight it as hard as he can, of course, but Macron isn't exactly wowing anyone either at the moment.

edit - When former government officials are writing articles for Le Monde about how the government needs to reverse 5 decades of policy, the needle is being moved. Maybe not flipped completely over, but let's not pretend it isn't wiggling.

Little Raven wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:08 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:02 pmIt literally is titled 'The French Don’t Understand American Identity Politics'. You said they are importing it. Seems like a direct contradiction especially when you go on to the below.

Not at all. The French ELITE don't understand identity politics, because they've spent 40 years training themselves not to. The French PEOPLE, on the other hand, don't seem to have any problem with it.

And American-style identity politics aren't moving the needle there.

Macron disagrees with you. He can see the writing on the wall. He intends to fight it as hard as he can, of course, but Macron isn't exactly wowing anyone either at the moment.

That doesn't say what you think it does. I'd say that Macron politely acknowledged it and then moved on. I am taking my cues from this
Washington Post piece about it from...less than a month ago and after the remarks in Le Monde. We'll see if they "import" our identity politics long-term but it is far too early to tell. A few marches doesn't necessarily mean widespread support from the 'people'. Though it isn't a secret that they have an anti-Muslim issue there but again that goes back decades to the back and forth on long-term multiculturalism efforts. Ascribing it to our influence is way too strong. It existed already. It caught some energy but it didn't change things strongly.

Washington Post wrote:Sibeth Ndiaye, the chief spokeswoman for the French government and an immigrant from Senegal, suggested in Le Monde this month that it was time to reconsider the country’s knee-jerk “no” to racial data of any kind. “Why not pose — in a calm and constructive manner — the debate over ethnic statistics?” she wrote.

Another government spokesperson told reporters that President Emmanuel Macron did not wish to open the debate “at this stage.” Macron is “favorable to concrete actions in the fight against discrimination, more than to a new debate that will be difficult to translate into rapid and visible results,” according to an Élysée Palace statement. Several government ministers objected to a proposal they saw as threatening France’s universalist culture.

Saying that something is secessionist counts as polite acknowledgment to you? Jesus. Tough crowd.

I think that article, while interesting, is very focused on Coronavirus, and barely touches on the larger racial issues now arising in France. I think they are not nearly as insignificant as you make them out to be. But hey, I guess time will prove one of us right.

Little Raven wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:27 pm I think that article, while interesting, is very focused on Coronavirus, and barely touches on the larger racial issues now arising in France. I think they are not nearly as insignificant as you make them out to be. But hey, I guess time will prove one of us right.

That's not what I'm arguing. You are tying it to American identity politics being imported. You're arguing we gave them the push. I'm saying they already have been struggling with these issues for years. The first article you published linked had 20K people protesting. A decent turnout but nearly a million protested across France in December because of pension system changes. What I'm arguing is that the relative impact that *you are claiming* is not supported by evidence. A few small protests that fit into an existing pattern of long-term dissent about racial policy in France is hardly evidence of 'American-style' identity politics which has completely different causes, patterns, and importantly outcomes attached to them. France was doing its own thing and will continue to do so.

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:34 pmYou are tying it to American identity politics being imported. You're arguing we gave them the push.

Yes to the first, no to the second. Identity politics is definitely starting to make headway in France, but we don't actively push it. We don't have to. It just kind of flows naturally out of us and since US news dominates the entire Western Twittersphere, our politics goes along with. Black Twitter is coming to France. They can't really stop it.

Little Raven wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:37 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:34 pmYou are tying it to American identity politics being imported. You're arguing we gave them the push.

Yes to the first, no to the second. Identity politics is definitely starting to make headway in France, but we don't actively push it. We don't have to. It just kind of flows naturally out of us and since US news dominates the entire Western Twittersphere, our politics goes along with. Black Twitter is coming to France. They can't really stop it.

The cultural intermixing you are talking about...that is the push I'm talking about. So yes to both. Anyway, I am going to say that I can't disagree with you more on this. You seem to be operating under a theory that our cultural influence is so overpowering that the French can't help but hear it. This seems incredibly dismissive of French agency. And it also dismisses that French activists has been dealing with race issues for decades. Our identity politics haven't influenced them so much as coincided accidentally with some specific outrages. Yet they have completely different roots, issues, and paths from the American pathos. It is the same family of problems but a totally different species to make a pained comparison. Expressing some level of solidarity in fraternité hardly means that our ideas are infiltrating their politics. They are doing their own thing. Maybe time will prove that to be wrong but there is almost no evidence of this.

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:01 amAnyway, I am going to say that I can't disagree with you more on this.

Well, life would hardly be enjoyable if we always agreed on everything. We should savor the mystery.

Little Raven wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:04 am

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:01 amAnyway, I am going to say that I can't disagree with you more on this.

Well, life would hardly be enjoyable if we always agreed on everything. We should savor the mystery.

No doubt! I have no problem with disagreement at all. It'd be a weird world without it.

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:08 am

Little Raven wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:04 am

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:01 amAnyway, I am going to say that I can't disagree with you more on this.

Well, life would hardly be enjoyable if we always agreed on everything. We should savor the mystery.

No doubt! I have no problem with disagreement at all. It'd be a weird world without it.

Not really. I mean, if it was normal - it wouldn't be weird.

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:08 am

Little Raven wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:04 am

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:01 amAnyway, I am going to say that I can't disagree with you more on this.

Well, life would hardly be enjoyable if we always agreed on everything. We should savor the mystery.

No doubt! I have no problem with disagreement at all. It'd be a weird world without it.

I disagree with your agreement about your disagreement.

El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:40 am

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:08 am

Little Raven wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:04 am

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:01 amAnyway, I am going to say that I can't disagree with you more on this.

Well, life would hardly be enjoyable if we always agreed on everything. We should savor the mystery.

No doubt! I have no problem with disagreement at all. It'd be a weird world without it.

I disagree with your agreement about your disagreement.

I'm fine with that.

WaPo

As Confederate statues fall across the country, Sierra Club Executive Director Michael Brune said in an early morning post on the group’s website, “it’s time to take down some of our own monuments, starting with some truth-telling about the Sierra Club’s early history.” Muir, who fought to preserve Yosemite Valley and Sequoia National Forest, once referred to African Americans as lazy “Sambos,” a racist pejorative that many black people consider to be even more offensive than the n-word.

While recounting a legendary walk from the Midwest to the Gulf of Mexico, Muir described Native Americans he encountered as “dirty.”

Muir’s friendships in the early 1900s were equally troubling, the Sierra Club said. Henry Fairfield Osborn, a close associate, led the New York Zoological Society and the board of trustees of the American Museum of Natural History and, following Muir’s death, helped establish the American Eugenics Society, which labeled nonwhite people, including Jews at the time, as inferior.
...
For years, Brune wrote, the Sierra Club’s staffers of color “have led the call for transformative change and I and other white leaders have not responded with the urgency nor at the scale that the opportunities and challenges demand.” He promised to overhaul executive leadership, reallocate $5 million to reduce pay inequities, and devote greater attention to the communities suffering most from “environmental racism” and “structural injustice.”

In other news, as BLM movement continues, and was pivoted into an "anti-police" movement, a coffee chain, Philz Coffee, found itself trying to balance their long-standing good relations with the police, and bowing to demands of employee supporting the BLM movement.

TL;DR -- multiple employees have been fired trying to defy existing police-friendly policies. One guy who was controlling the brand's Instagram account called for abolishing the 20% law enforcement discount over the official company channel. He was fired. In another store, employees destroyed the long-standing "police patches" that were used as decorations throughout the store. They were fired for "destruction of company property". (Other stores just removed the patches and put them into storage, which the local managers only agreed to after pressure from the workers.)

https://missionlocal.org/2020/07/philz- ... -policies/

Personal commentary: I don't understand the "defund police" movement. Not every police department around the nation is heavy handed on the African-American population, obviously some are worse than others. So why is this a "national" movement, and it's turned into a "you're with us or against us" wedge issue? We need police, so fix the police. This defund police is all about bluster, with no substance on how to FIX the problem.

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:05 pm This defund police is all about bluster, with no substance on how to FIX the problem.

If that's your take on it, I think you probably need to do a little more research.

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:05 pm
Personal commentary: I don't understand the "defund police" movement. Not every police department around the nation is heavy handed on the African-American population, obviously some are worse than others. So why is this a "national" movement, and it's turned into a "you're with us or against us" wedge issue? We need police, so fix the police. This defund police is all about bluster, with no substance on how to FIX the problem.

"Defund the police" is not a simple "anti-police" movement. It's about fundamentally re-imagining the role of public services and the use of armed police (and the possibility of state violence) in roles for which they are not suited.

If you believe armed and aggressive police shouldn't be as the frontline first-option for mental-health care or student behavior or homelessness, you should be interested in the Defund movement. Likewise if you would like to reverse the militarization of police forces at all levels. These issues matter even if your local department hasn't been busting the skulls of local protesters lately.

There have been a quite a few proposals for how to fix the problem. Here's a comprehensive set of fixes from some prominent BLM activists.

[edit: grammar]

Holman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:27 pm

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:05 pm
Personal commentary: I don't understand the "defund police" movement. Not every police department around the nation is heavy handed on the African-American population, obviously some are worse than others. So why is this a "national" movement, and it's turned into a "you're with us or against us" wedge issue? We need police, so fix the police. This defund police is all about bluster, with no substance on how to FIX the problem.

"Defund the police" is not a simple "anti-police" movement. It's about fundamentally re-imagining the role of public services and the use of armed police (and the possibility of state violence) in roles for which they are not suited.

It's a really unfortunate slogan, though. I'm all for what it means, but not for what it says.

I agree that police are way too paramilitary nowadays with all the "war on drugs" and tons of war surplus inventory for the past decades, but it's not as if every cop has a MP5 on his back in full decked out level 3 body armor kit. Most cops don't do that. It's the SWAT teams (that everybody strives to get in) that are decked out that way. If that's the elite police, is it any wonder that's what cops are striving toward?

We need to measure cops not just by their arrest record or traffic ticket written, but how much rapport s/he had built with the community. I agree that police REFORM is needed, but DEFUND police is NOT the answer. What that REALLY does is force out the folks who don't "measure up" in arrest stats in the reviews, even though they may have better community support, forcing them into retirement, and keeping the more hardcore cops with better arrest records (and probably less cooperation from the community). In other words, I believe "defund" police will have the opposite effect it was intended to create: a kinder gentler police department. It forces police unions to become more hardcore to justify its headcount and its budget putting even MORE pressure on the community, not less. It will simply be "smarter" in its application of force, but that doesn't fix the fundamental problem.

Yes, it's a cultural problem, but the past few decades of police policy have CREATED this problem. The "broken windows" premise, aka "quality of life" premise is contributing to the problem. Cops are trained from the start to suspect the worst (like terrorists or gangbangers rushing out and fill him full of bullets) at every traffic stop. Yet they are also trained to pick out the slightest detail (minor offenses) to enforce and hopefully find bigger ones as per broken windows premise. I can't find the podcast, I thought it was Malcom McDowell's Revisionist history, where he dug into the story of several police shootings or deaths, such as why did the cops pull over Sandra Bland, leading to her suicide in jail. Basically cops are trained to be suspicious toward everyone except maybe a fellow cop. and somehow the Sandra Bland encounter just went south in a heartbeat.

I believe police commissions need to get some sort of "community sentiment" measure in place as a part of cop's performance eval. After all, the community being policed had to have a say on how the policing is done, right? Just a couple members on the commission is not enough.

In other words, police needs new policy and new training, not sensitivity stuff, but FUNDAMENTAL changes to how policing is done. And losing funding does NOT help that AT ALL.

Let's face it, how does "Ford please stop making police cars" help the situation?

Or "Philz Coffee please stop law enforcement discounts"?

It doesn't. Police reform is a real issue. DEFUND POLICE is a slogan that took a wrong turn.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:51 pm

This is confusing.
I mean. It really should just be all coming from the same ice cream.

I know that the different flavors are intended , but it feels like it’s one layer too much.

Let’s just make it simple.

Share the ice cream with those that aren’t getting enough

Take the money away from the cops and give it to those programs, which will help people, and prevent them from needing to interact with the cops in the future.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:44 pm Take the money away from the cops and give it to those programs, which will help people, and prevent them from needing to interact with the cops in the future.

Totally get that.
Just saying I think the flavor of ice cream angle doesn’t help make the simple message simple.

Democratic activists are horrible at messaging. The message should be along the lines of “Sherrif Andy not Strike Force Alpha” to play into nostalgia of small town Mayberry. “We’re Community not Criminals” to explain implicit bias. “Policing Is Not The Answer to Poverty.”

Instead the antifa influence gives arguments that sound like they’ll create anarchy. The problem is the Republican attack on welfare has led to the use of police as social workers. And that’s stupid and expensive.

Even though I get that part of the money given to the police because of “mental health” is supposed to be seen here as better going straight to “Mental Health”

So they make that a ‘flavor’

Unagi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:49 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:44 pm Take the money away from the cops and give it to those programs, which will help people, and prevent them from needing to interact with the cops in the future.

Totally get that.
Just saying I think the flavor of ice cream angle doesn’t help make the simple message simple.

The different flavors of ice cream represent the variety of functions that currently are being dumped together into the oversized police bowl, when the reformers would prefer that the dissimilar functions be handed off to appropriate organizations.

Max Peck wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:51 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:49 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:44 pm Take the money away from the cops and give it to those programs, which will help people, and prevent them from needing to interact with the cops in the future.

Totally get that.
Just saying I think the flavor of ice cream angle doesn’t help make the simple message simple.

The different flavors of ice cream represent the variety of functions that currently are being dumped together into the oversized police bowl, when the reformers would prefer that the dissimilar functions be handed off to appropriate organizations.

Unagi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:51 pm Even though I get that part of the money given to the police because of “mental health” is supposed to be seen here as better going straight to “Mental Health”

So they make that a ‘flavor’

Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:35 pm It's a really unfortunate slogan, though. I'm all for what it means, but not for what it says.

Something like "Reform the Police" or "Revise the Police" sounds better to comfortable people (like me) unlikely to be in police crosshairs.

"Defund the Police" probably sounds better to people who've been victimized precisely in the degree to which police have been over-armed and over-funded.

Holman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:10 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:35 pm It's a really unfortunate slogan, though. I'm all for what it means, but not for what it says.

Something like "Reform the Police" or "Revise the Police" sounds better to comfortable people (like me) unlikely to be in police crosshairs.

"Defund the Police" probably sounds better to people who've been victimized precisely in the degree to which police have been over-armed and over-funded.

So, you're suggesting I not propose "Castrate the Police" on Twitter?

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:21 pm

Kasey Chang wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:05 pm This defund police is all about bluster, with no substance on how to FIX the problem.

If that's your take on it, I think you probably need to do a little more research.

It's even been explained on these pages in great detail.

Unagi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:51 pm Even though I get that part of the money given to the police because of “mental health” is supposed to be seen here as better going straight to “Mental Health”

So they make that a ‘flavor’

See, I thought that made the case stronger. It was never the police's money to begin with, so it's no big deal to redistribute it where it was originally intended. YMMV of course.

stessier wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:23 am

Unagi wrote: ↑Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:51 pm Even though I get that part of the money given to the police because of “mental health” is supposed to be seen here as better going straight to “Mental Health”

So they make that a ‘flavor’

See, I thought that made the case stronger. It was never the police's money to begin with, so it's no big deal to redistribute it where it was originally intended. YMMV of course.

I guess the problem is that it looks like the flavor of the Police Budget is actually the same flavor of "Affordable Housing", cause that's where they stuck the flag.

Maybe I would have been less upset of the big bowl itself said "Police Budget", not a flag in the Affordable Housing flavor.


and then, still - in the end - the bowl of "Police Funding" is still just made up of all the flavors that they should have no business in... so, I didn't feel like there was a flavor FOR "police funding".

Are you people really suggesting that political cartoons aren't an adequate medium for nuanced policy debate??

Holman wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:34 am Are you people really suggesting that political cartoons aren't an adequate medium for nuanced policy debate??

you had me for a second there.

Just like everything else the "defund movement" has a range of supporters.

There are abolishonists at one extreme. We have ACAB grafitti all over the city. These are the ones that the far right focuses on to delegitimize the movement.

I usually employ a medical analogy.

We have illnesses. We're spending all of our resources treating the symptoms and very little addressing the cause. If we take money away from treating the symptoms and invest it in treating the cause, we won't have as many symptoms that need treatment.

How come job training and mental health counseling are the same flavor?

See?!