Missouri Statute
571.030. 1. (4)
“A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly: (4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner.”
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:24 pm
by LawBeefaroni
UUW brandishing.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:57 am
by Paingod
Holman wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:03 pmNearly every protest in late summer featured Nazis "exhibiting guns" at unarmed marchers.
Very few had the Nazis actively waving their guns at people who posed no threat to them; none as far as I can recall. Aiming a firearm at someone is an illegal act when you're just strutting around outside your house. Having a firearm hanging at your side isn't, even if you're counter-protesting Black Lives Matter.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:34 am
by Little Raven
Paingod wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:57 amAiming a firearm at someone is an illegal act...
This is the key. The St. Louis couple is being (rightfully) charged because they were clearly aiming their weapons at people who did not pose an immediate threat to them. The vast majority of armed protesters, regardless of political affiliation, are smart enough to avoid doing this. But sometimes they aren't, and when that happens, the hammer comes down.*
I'm a big believer in the 2nd Amendment. I'm generally not in favor of carrying at protests...that's a recipe for trouble...but I acknowledge people have the right to do so. But don't point your gun at someone unless you're prepared to explain to a judge why you were in fear for your life.
* Unless you're a cop. They operate on different rules.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:01 am
by Paingod
Little Raven wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:34 amThe vast majority of armed protesters, regardless of political affiliation, are smart enough to avoid doing this. But sometimes they aren't, and when that happens, the hammer comes down.
For a brief moment I scoffed at him being charged for firing a paintball gun, but then quickly recalled my own paintball games as a youth and how much harm you could inflict with one of those. Not even with a shot to the head, too. It's possible to crank the pressure up so you're firing balls of hurt that create bleeding craters on people's skin, through clothing. We had one kid that thought higher pressure would mean better performance. We corrected him after someone walked up, bleeding from his shot.
Little Raven wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:34 amThe vast majority of armed protesters, regardless of political affiliation, are smart enough to avoid doing this. But sometimes they aren't, and when that happens, the hammer comes down.
For a brief moment I scoffed at him being charged for firing a paintball gun, but then quickly recalled my own paintball games as a youth and how much harm you could inflict with one of those. Not even with a shot to the head, too. It's possible to crank the pressure up so you're firing balls of hurt that create bleeding craters on people's skin, through clothing. We had one kid that thought higher pressure would mean better performance. We corrected him after someone walked up, bleeding from his shot.
It's also discouraged because if he does it out of the blue to someone who is armed with a real firearm, he might get shot.
I'm just shocked that the guy is 50. I assumed it was some kid or maybe late--20s.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:07 am
by dbt1949
The problem is you cannot legislate racism away. No matter how many laws you make many white people are still going to dislike black people. Passing laws against racism is just going to piss them off more.
I don't think there is a cure for racism.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:11 am
by Holman
dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:07 am
The problem is you cannot legislate racism away. No matter how many laws you make many white people are still going to dislike black people. Passing laws against racism is just going to piss them off more.
I don't think there is a cure for racism.
Why do those white people dislike black people, though?
People aren't born racist. They're taught it, encouraged in it, and rewarded for it by others with something to gain from the divisions.
The cure is to teach against it, discourage it, and root out the systems that reward it.
dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:07 am
The problem is you cannot legislate racism away. No matter how many laws you make many white people are still going to dislike black people. Passing laws against racism is just going to piss them off more.
I don't think there is a cure for racism.
Why do those white people dislike black people, though?
People aren't born racist. They're taught it, encouraged in it, and rewarded for it by others with something to gain from the divisions.
The cure is to teach against it, discourage it, and root out the systems that reward it.
While strictly true, people are xenophobic. Any time there is a discernable cultural difference it's likely to manifest itself in what we traditionally call racism.
We can do all the things you say, but I think it's innate and must be countered as opposed to thinking society creates it in the first place.
dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:07 am
The problem is you cannot legislate racism away. No matter how many laws you make many white people are still going to dislike black people. Passing laws against racism is just going to piss them off more.
I don't think there is a cure for racism.
Why do those white people dislike black people, though?
People aren't born racist. They're taught it, encouraged in it, and rewarded for it by others with something to gain from the divisions.
The cure is to teach against it, discourage it, and root out the systems that reward it.
While strictly true, people are xenophobic. Any time there is a discernable cultural difference it's likely to manifest itself in what we traditionally call racism.
We can do all the things you say, but I think it's innate and must be countered as opposed to thinking society creates it in the first place.
People aren't born xenophobic though, so it can't be innate.
dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:07 am
The problem is you cannot legislate racism away. No matter how many laws you make many white people are still going to dislike black people. Passing laws against racism is just going to piss them off more.
I don't think there is a cure for racism.
Why do those white people dislike black people, though?
People aren't born racist. They're taught it, encouraged in it, and rewarded for it by others with something to gain from the divisions.
The cure is to teach against it, discourage it, and root out the systems that reward it.
While strictly true, people are xenophobic. Any time there is a discernable cultural difference it's likely to manifest itself in what we traditionally call racism.
We can do all the things you say, but I think it's innate and must be countered as opposed to thinking society creates it in the first place.
Are people -naturally- xenophobic, though? Or are they xenophobic in response to circumstances and cultural indoctrination?
Our ancient ancestors were xenophobic as a survival strategy. Later civilizations have overcome plenty of early survival strategies once they became detrimental to civilization itself.
Arguments derived from “human nature” (or, more recently, from Social Darwinism or shallow anthropology) have been used to justify everything from slavery to ethnic cleansing to strict repression of women. They always turn out to be unfounded.
dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:07 am
The problem is you cannot legislate racism away. No matter how many laws you make many white people are still going to dislike black people. Passing laws against racism is just going to piss them off more.
I don't think there is a cure for racism.
Why do those white people dislike black people, though?
People aren't born racist. They're taught it, encouraged in it, and rewarded for it by others with something to gain from the divisions.
The cure is to teach against it, discourage it, and root out the systems that reward it.
While strictly true, people are xenophobic. Any time there is a discernable cultural difference it's likely to manifest itself in what we traditionally call racism.
We can do all the things you say, but I think it's innate and must be countered as opposed to thinking society creates it in the first place.
People aren't born xenophobic though, so it can't be innate.
I find this hard to believe. While clearly you'll find research on both sides, it definitely leans to an innate source.
I'm no evolutionary biologist, but we organize ourselves into tribes and our tribe is better than the other tribe. There's a big Wait but why series on it.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:03 pm
by Holman
I tend to see Wait But Why as shallow anthropology.
dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:07 am
The problem is you cannot legislate racism away. No matter how many laws you make many white people are still going to dislike black people. Passing laws against racism is just going to piss them off more.
I don't think there is a cure for racism.
Why do those white people dislike black people, though?
People aren't born racist. They're taught it, encouraged in it, and rewarded for it by others with something to gain from the divisions.
The cure is to teach against it, discourage it, and root out the systems that reward it.
While strictly true, people are xenophobic. Any time there is a discernable cultural difference it's likely to manifest itself in what we traditionally call racism.
We can do all the things you say, but I think it's innate and must be countered as opposed to thinking society creates it in the first place.
People aren't born xenophobic though, so it can't be innate.
I find this hard to believe. While clearly you'll find research on both sides, it definitely leans to an innate source.
I'm no evolutionary biologist, but we organize ourselves into tribes and our tribe is better than the other tribe. There's a big Wait but why series on it.
So what is the explanation for cross race adoptions? Those kids don't fear their parents and, from what I've seen, taken on the tribe of their parents. That is learned behavior.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:18 pm
by noxiousdog
Holman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:03 pm
I tend to see Wait But Why as shallow anthropology.
I'd love to see an argument that says xenophobia isn't innate yet can explain the consistent tribal violence and raiding that has existed for as long as we have anthropological evidence... even prior to city states let alone nation states.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:21 pm
by noxiousdog
stessier wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:18 pm
So what is the explanation for cross race adoptions? Those kids don't fear their parents and, from what I've seen, taken on the tribe of their parents. That is learned behavior.
Right. It's culture based not race based. Which is why I said xenophobia and not racism. But tribalism is innate and will manifest itself in a multitude of ways such as racism.
I have negative physical reactions to people who identify with Trump. My brain has clearly wired itself to hate and fear that tribe. I suspect that's pretty common for readers of this board.
stessier wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:18 pm
So what is the explanation for cross race adoptions? Those kids don't fear their parents and, from what I've seen, taken on the tribe of their parents. That is learned behavior.
Right. It's culture based not race based. Which is why I said xenophobia and not racism. But tribalism is innate and will manifest itself in a multitude of ways such as racism.
I don't see how that follows. The parents teach the kids to honor the tribe. There is nothing in the kid to define a tribe to follow.
This seems very much like a chicken and egg thing - neither of us is going to be able to prove it.
dbt1949 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:07 am
The problem is you cannot legislate racism away. No matter how many laws you make many white people are still going to dislike black people. Passing laws against racism is just going to piss them off more.
I don't think there is a cure for racism.
Why do those white people dislike black people, though?
People aren't born racist. They're taught it, encouraged in it, and rewarded for it by others with something to gain from the divisions.
The cure is to teach against it, discourage it, and root out the systems that reward it.
While strictly true, people are xenophobic. Any time there is a discernable cultural difference it's likely to manifest itself in what we traditionally call racism.
We can do all the things you say, but I think it's innate and must be countered as opposed to thinking society creates it in the first place.
People aren't born xenophobic though, so it can't be innate.
I find this hard to believe. While clearly you'll find research on both sides, it definitely leans to an innate source.
I'm no evolutionary biologist, but we organize ourselves into tribes and our tribe is better than the other tribe. There's a big Wait but why series on it.
So what is the explanation for cross race adoptions? Those kids don't fear their parents and, from what I've seen, taken on the tribe of their parents. That is learned behavior.
Tribe isn't always race.
Racism isn't inmate. Othering is. Just like altruism is, and both come in varying degrees.
When you don't have a different race to other, it's a different religion. When you dont have a different religion, it's a different sect. Or a different city or a different part of the city.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:28 pm
by stessier
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:26 pm
Othering is.
Othering is not xenophobia. Recognizing differences is natural. Fearing them is learned.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:32 pm
by coopasonic
Similarity bias. They are not like me so they are other. In vs out can be based on most anything, but physically identifiable differences like skin color are the easiest. People had to think of black people as less to justify slavery. That difference has been propagated through the decades in lots of ways. After slavery ended, we had Jim Crow and after integration we have the War on Drugs. You may not remember the war on drugs as a race thing, but conveniently for some people it seems to have worked out that way. It's not an accident that there is a strong correlation between black and criminal in most people's minds. Society has taught us that bias and it's a hard thing to fight.
Sorry I recently finished reading The New Jim Crow and we've had some pretty intense bias training at work recently and it's kind of leaking out my pores. Combine that with the other book I finished earlier this year, Fantasyland, about America's history of magical thinking that completely popped the balloon of American exceptionalism for me and my awareness has become almost painful, despite the fact that none of it really impacts me personally other than worrying about my children, who are also going to benefit from all the privilege.
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:26 pm
Othering is.
Othering is not xenophobia. Recognizing differences is natural. Fearing them is learned.
But it's learned way more easily and passively than nearly anything else.
Look at it this way, religion is clearly learned, but it's damn near an ubiquitous human trait. There is something in our genetics that leads to spirituality. It's not a given and it can be unlearned, but the default is some form of religion. I'd guess that 99.9% of human cultures have had religion. Different ones, to be sure, but they still have it.
Holman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:03 pm
I tend to see Wait But Why as shallow anthropology.
I'd love to see an argument that says xenophobia isn't innate yet can explain the consistent tribal violence and raiding that has existed for as long as we have anthropological evidence... even prior to city states let alone nation states.
The in-group/out-group pattern of course makes practical sense in a struggle over resources and power and etc. That’s (most of) why we have wars. And the capacity for even competing groups to negotiate peace shows that even intergroup dynamics are not inevitably hostile.
But the history of increasingly complex civilizations is the history of expanding the in-group, and that’s accomplished by cultural and political means.
The argument that “people can’t not be racist because xenophobia is innate” is really the argument that different races can’t share the same cultural/tribal/whatever group. THAT’s pernicious, and that’s what I’m arguing against.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:33 pm
by noxiousdog
coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:32 pm
Sorry I recently finished reading The New Jim Crow and we've had some pretty intense bias training at work recently and it's kind of leaking out my pores. Combine that with the other book I finished earlier this year, Fantasyland, about America's history of magical thinking that completely popped the balloon of American exceptionalism for me and my awareness has become almost painful, despite the fact that none of it really impacts me personally other than worrying about my children, who are also going to benefit from all the privilege.
Isn't this the point of anti-bias training? We ALL have bias. Every one of us. Even the most woke person. How can that not be innate?
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:36 pm
by noxiousdog
Holman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:32 pm
The argument that “people can’t not be racist because xenophobia is innate” is really the argument that different races can’t share the same cultural/tribal/whatever group. THAT’s pernicious, and that’s what I’m arguing against.
Well, of course. Just because something is innate doesn't mean you have to let it rule your life. We all want sugar and fat. We (try) to control that urge.
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:26 pm
Othering is.
Othering is not xenophobia. Recognizing differences is natural. Fearing them is learned.
You are naturally going to want to side with your team over the other team. There is flexibility in how you identify who is and isn't on your team. Awareness can mitigate that natural bias as well.
I guess the question is what is your natural team? Is it all humanity or just mom? Fear is natural. It's a defense mechanism. How do you know what to be afraid of though?
My reading hasn't gone there, but I have ideas.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:49 pm
by LawBeefaroni
WOLFE CITY, Texas -- A Black man who was fatally shot by a white police officer in a small East Texas city had offered a handshake to the officer, asking if he was "doing good," as the officer arrived at a convenience store to check out a report of a fight, according to a court document released Wednesday.
Wolfe City police officer Shaun Lucas has been charged with murder in the weekend death of 31-year-old Jonathan Price, whose funeral will be held Saturday at the high school football field in the city of about 1,500 people located about 70 miles northeast of Dallas.
Once again, have to wait and see but the officer was arrested and charged very quickly. Sounds very bad.
A Texas man who was fatally shot by a police officer over the weekend was killed in “an act of racism,” a former Major League Baseball player charged, while vowing that justice would be served in his death.
Will Middlebrooks, a former third baseman for the Boston Red Sox, spoke out about his childhood friend Jonathan Price, who was shot to death while breaking up a fight in Wolfe City late Saturday.
“This was purely an act of racism,” Middlebrooks wrote in a Facebook post on Sunday. “Period.”
Middlebrooks said Price, who had intervened when he saw a man and a woman brawling outside a gas station, was “singled out” by the responding police officer during the fatal shooting.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:23 am
by Paingod
A dash of levity for the thread.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:03 am
by dbt1949
I see where the gentle people of Portland have rioted protested our past presidents for being anti indigenous people because today is Columbus day.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:00 pm
by The Meal
dbt1949 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:03 am
I see where the gentle people of Portland have rioted protested our past presidents for being anti indigenous people because today is Columbus day.
The right-wing is making a big deal about the shooter's space invaders tattoo and that he wasn't a licensed security guard. Does that even matter? Isn't it self defense?
The right-wing is making a big deal about the shooter's space invaders tattoo and that he wasn't a licensed security guard. Does that even matter? Isn't it self defense?
Unlike Trump supporters, Biden supporters won’t hail the guy as a hero and hold special events for his mother.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:32 pm
by Little Raven
Alefroth wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:24 pmThe right-wing is making a big deal about the shooter's space invaders tattoo and that he wasn't a licensed security guard. Does that even matter? Isn't it self defense?
It wouldn't matter in Texas. I don't know the details of Colorado law, but I wouldn't THINK it would matter.
But this is why we have courts and juries. They'll sort it out.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:07 am
by Little Raven
So it turns out the details matter.
Colorado doesn't have a "duty to retreat" but the law does say that "any action taken in self-defense must be generally proportionate to the attack." Meaning - even if you reasonably believe that someone is going to punch you, you're not allowed to shoot them. You're only allowed to punch back. I'm not at all fond of this kind of law because it really puts women and people with disabilities in a tough spot, but I don't make the laws in Colorado. That may well complicate Dolloff's self-defense claim. Also, Colorado law says that if you START a fight, you're not allowed to claim self-defense, unless you make it ultra-super clear you'd like to stop now. Dolloff never ran away, like Rittenhouse did.
Here's a long article about it. Long story short - this one is complicated. I hope Dolloff can manage one hell of a GoFund Me....I suspect he'll need it.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:30 am
by LawBeefaroni
If Keltner was reaching for OC spray or a gun, it may be justified but it's kind of unclear. Civilians are held to a higher standard than cops. I'd think he'd have to have seen the gun/OC rather than the guy just reaching for something.
Both men yelled and postured
Regardless of legal justification, I see the problem right here.
I'll say this, in all my civilian training, it's stressed that your first duty is to retreat and disengage when you're armed. Someone's robbing a store? Back away and get to cover/concealment. Someone road raging? Let them pass you until they're out of sight then stop to get more distance. They follow you? Drive to a police station or public space with cameras. Someone insulting you and calling you a "bitch"? Be the "bitch", walk away.
Anyway, both these guys escalated and seemed to be emboldened by being armed (one with a gun, one with OC and possibly a gun). Not properly trained or not heeding proper training.
Also "unofficial" armed security? That's not security. That's liability.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:53 am
by Isgrimnur
Thank you for unlocking the thread, ILB!
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:00 am
by Little Raven
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:30 amAlso "unofficial" armed security? That's not security. That's liability.
Staff at Denver’s 9News did not know a security guard protecting their journalists at protests over the weekend was armed until the guard opened fire and killed a protester, the station announced Tuesday.
“As stated yesterday, 9NEWS does not contract directly with individual security personnel. 9NEWS contracted with Pinkerton and had directed that security guards accompanying our personnel not be armed,” Mark Cornetta, president and general manager of the station, said in a statement. “None of 9NEWS’ crew accompanied by Mr. Dolloff on Saturday were aware that he was armed.”
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:06 am
by LawBeefaroni
My bad on locking, fat-fingered it.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:21 am
by Isgrimnur
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:06 am
My bad on locking, fat-fingered it.
All good. I was amused.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:12 pm
by dbt1949
and I was confused.
Re: Racism in America (with data)
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:40 am
by malchior
Philadelphia police shot and killed a mentally ill black man with a knife today. He was definitely approaching them while his mother was chasing him telling him to put it down. It is hard to fault the officers in this case. They attempted to put distance between them several times. It is a horrible situation that is a no win for all involved. In any case, the whole thing has quickly gotten out of control - hopefully not in your part of town @Holman. The people on the street started yelling at the police throughout the shooting investigation and opportunistic rioting has broken out in parts of the city complete with setting police vehicles on fire.
Sad situation and bad, bad timing. I expect to hear Trump crowing about this in the morning. As usual the right-wing racists and agitators like the excretable Andy Ngo are calling them black lives matter rioters. This is inevitable. It doesn't matter how legitimate the actions are. The populace has had it with police violence no matter how justified. Just throw it on the pile of massive problems we face. At least Biden has a shot at calming it down whereas I expect Trump to pour jet fuel on it.