The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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Scoop20906
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The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Scoop20906 »

So Mueller has been requesting emails from the Presidential Transition Team which White House Lawyers have been deciding what to turn over while going to the GSA to get all of them and being able to know what the WH decided NOT to share. Cagey. Needless to say the White House was not pleased.

https://www.axios.com/scoop-mueller-obt ... gn=organic
Special Counsel Robert Mueller has obtained “many tens of thousands" of Trump transition emails, including emails of Jared Kushner, transition team sources tell Axios.

Trump officials discovered Mueller had the emails when his prosecutors used them as the basis for questions to witnesses, the sources said.
The emails include 12 accounts, one of which contains about 7,000 emails, the sources said.
The accounts include the team's political leadership and the foreign-policy team, the sources said.
Why it matters: The transition emails are said to include sensitive exchanges on matters that include potential appointments, gossip about the views of particular senators involved in the confirmation process, speculation about vulnerabilities of Trump nominees, strategizing about press statements, and policy planning on everything from war to taxes.

“Mueller is using the emails to confirm things, and get new leads," a transition source told me.
How it happened: The sources say Mueller obtained the emails from the General Services Administration, the government agency that hosted the transition email system, which had addresses ending in “ptt.gov," for Presidential Transition Team.

Taking fight public: Charging "unlawful conduct," Kory Langhofer, counsel for the transition team, wrote in a letter to congressional committees Saturday that "career staff at the General Services Administration ... have unlawfully produced [transition team] private materials, including privileged communications, to the Special Counsel's Office."

The seven-page later, obtained by Axios, says: "We understand that the Special Counsel's Office has subsequently made extensive use of the materials it obtained from the GSA, including materials that are susceptible to privilege claims."
The letter says this was a violation of Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizure.
"Additionally, certain portions of the [transition] materials the Special Counsel's Office obtained from the GSA, including materials that are susceptible to privilege claims, have been leaked to the press by unknown persons."
The Special Counsel's office said: "We will decline to comment."

The transition sources said they were surprised about the emails because they have been in touch with Mueller's team and have cooperated.

The twist: The sources say that transition officials assumed that Mueller would come calling, and had sifted through the emails and separated the ones they considered privileged. But the sources said that was for naught, since Mueller has the complete cache from the dozen accounts.

Editor's Note: This story has been updated with details from the Langhofer letter to congressional committees.

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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Holman »

"BUT OUR EMAILS!!"
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by RunningMn9 »

When they say they are considered “privileged”, how so?

Executive privilege? He wasn’t President yet, and had no authority to claim “privilege”. So I assume they mean something else.

I assume his lawyers know that during the transition, Barack Obama was still President. And we only have one President at a time capable of invoking Executive Privilege.


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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Jaymann »

Translation: privileged = incriminating.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Holman »

Clinton and the DNC weren't 1% this panicky when their emails were obtained illegally and selectively leaked for maximum innuendo.

Trump and company are completely losing their shit over their emails being obtained legally and examined in full.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

This is a good sign. :roll:







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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Chaz »

So the argument is that anyone who's expressed negative opinions about Trump can't be trusted to do their jobs without bias, right?

Okay, so I'm sure they'll be applying that to everyone in the Trump admin who's expressed negative opinions about, say minorities, women, liberals, etc, and kicking them out, since they obviously can't be trusted to do their jobs fairly either.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by geezer »

Chaz wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:06 am So the argument is that anyone who's expressed negative opinions about Trump can't be trusted to do their jobs without bias, right?

Okay, so I'm sure they'll be applying that to everyone in the Trump admin who's expressed negative opinions about, say minorities, women, liberals, etc, and kicking them out, since they obviously can't be trusted to do their jobs fairly either.
The utter lack of self awareness, the hypocricy and the shamelessness from the same fools that supported multiple BENGHAZI!!! investigations boggles the mind, and makes me want to break things.
Last edited by geezer on Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by RunningMn9 »

It’s good that you mention Benghazi, as that gets to the root of the matter. These people misused their power to conduct a partisan witch hunt, which leads them to assume that anyone conducting an investigation must obviously be conducting a partisan witch hunt.

Because that’s exactly what they would have done (and have done).


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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

Chaz wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:06 amSo the argument is that anyone who's expressed negative opinions about Trump can't be trusted to do their jobs without bias, right?
Realizing they are losing the battle over information, they'll now switch tactics and go after the people sharing the information. Between this and the list of 7 forbidden words at the CDC, I am speechless.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Skinypupy »

The old adage that whatever the GOP is accusing others of doing is exactly what they are doing/have been doing seems to be as applicable as ever in this situation.

Not that it makes things any less shitty, but still.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by RunningMn9 »

To be charitable, it really isn’t something particular to the GOP, it’s more of a human nature issue.


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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Blackhawk »

I don't think this is a change of tactics at all. All along their tactic has been to discredit Mueller and his investigation. They've been searching high and low for anything that they could spin to look like misconduct to either/or use to 'prove' a witch hunt and use as an excuse to move against him.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Kraken »

Yup, the best defense is a good offense. Accusations don't need to be true, they just need to be repeated loudly and frequently. This will give Trump cover to fire Mueller and Congress cover to let it slide. EMAILS! works.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Chaz »

If Mueller does get fired this Tuesday, I'm planning on spending the weekend marching in Boston. Shit, maybe I'll talk to my wife about taking a road trip down to DC.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by malchior »

This is my take to the street moment as well. There are organizations drawing up plans right now for this contingency.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Zarathud »

Investigator Gonna Investigate....
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Pyperkub »

Chaz wrote:If Mueller does get fired this Tuesday, I'm planning on spending the weekend marching in Boston. Shit, maybe I'll talk to my wife about taking a road trip down to DC.
Rumours are over Christmas weekend, not Tuesday.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by msteelers »

malchior wrote:This is my take to the street moment as well. There are organizations drawing up plans right now for this contingency.
I will be out on the streets as well. I’m sure there will be protests at mar a lago to my south, but I’ll most likely be at my congressman’s office.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Alefroth »

Chaz wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:30 pm If Mueller does get fired this Tuesday, I'm planning on spending the weekend marching in Boston. Shit, maybe I'll talk to my wife about taking a road trip down to DC.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

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Pyperkub wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:51 pm
Chaz wrote:If Mueller does get fired this Tuesday, I'm planning on spending the weekend marching in Boston. Shit, maybe I'll talk to my wife about taking a road trip down to DC.
Rumours are over Christmas weekend, not Tuesday.
Yeah, I meant Friday, don't know where Tuesday came from.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Smoove_B »

He looks and sounds tired. Low energy. Sad.

EDIT: To clarify, when asked, he indicated no, he will not be firing Mueller this week.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by RunningMn9 »

To clarify, Trump can’t fire Mueller. He has to fire the people that won’t fire Mueller, and then appoint people and have them confirmed that will fire Mueller.


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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by GreenGoo »

Smoove_B wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:37 pm He looks and sounds tired. Low energy. Sad.

EDIT: To clarify, when asked, he indicated no, he will not be firing Mueller this week.
Yay. If he is suffering, it will help me sleep at night.

edit: to be clear, he is suffering because he took a job that he has no idea how to do and is in way over his head. I take pleasure in that, yes. It's his own doing.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Holman »

Smoove_B wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:37 pm He looks and sounds tired. Low energy. Sad.

EDIT: To clarify, when asked, he indicated no, he will not be firing Mueller this week.
As an aside, how ridiculous is it that the POTUS regularly appears in public wearing a cap with "45" and his own name on it?
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

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Holman wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:58 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:37 pm He looks and sounds tired. Low energy. Sad.

EDIT: To clarify, when asked, he indicated no, he will not be firing Mueller this week.
As an aside, how ridiculous is it that the POTUS regularly appears in public wearing a cap with "45" and his own name on it?
Dude. I rewatched his responses to the charlottesville march/protest/murder. He should have been impeached on that alone. How the Republicans swallow their bile and just pretend he's not a HUGE liability that is going to sink them I have no idea.

He's a monster. Wearing a hat that promotes himself is so low on his sins that it's practically a virtue.

He is embarrassing America both at home and abroad.

I will say this: He will be infamous in the history books for his sheer terribleness. Maybe that's enough for him.

I think everyone who voted for him should have to wear a giant red A on their clothes for 8 years. After that, they might get paroled if they can answer some basic political and economic questions. They should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. I don't give a crap how defiant they are or how much they decide to dig in and stand their ground. ASHAMED.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Holman »

GreenGoo wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:03 pm Dude. I rewatched his responses to the charlottesville march/protest/murder. He should have been impeached on that alone. How the Republicans swallow their bile and just pretend he's not a HUGE liability that is going to sink them I have no idea.
It's starting to look like the Republicans are resigned to losing big in 2018. Even Ryan is making retirement noises.

For them 2018 will be about writing corporate favors that get them hired as seven-figure lobbyists and partners in 2019.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by GreenGoo »

Who the hell is going to start cleaning up this mess, is what I want to know.

And I really look forward to the tweet storms from Drumpf about all the mistakes the new guy is making. Presumably the new guy's inauguration will be tiny compared to Drumpf's.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Defiant »

Smoove_B wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:37 pm He looks and sounds tired. Low energy. Sad.
If only that would work
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Jeff V »

GreenGoo wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:21 pm Who the hell is going to start cleaning up this mess, is what I want to know.

And I really look forward to the tweet storms from Drumpf about all the mistakes the new guy is making. Presumably the new guy's inauguration will be tiny compared to Drumpf's.
Of course it will. Do you recall Gerald Ford's inauguration?
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by GreenGoo »

How old do you think I am?

Also, I'm looking forward to the President Drumpf Library.

I assume it will have a barker and carnival rides.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Kraken »

GreenGoo wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:43 pm How old do you think I am?

Also, I'm looking forward to the President Drumpf Library.

I assume it will have a barker and carnival rides.
One hopes that he dies or gets locked away before he joins the honored circle of living ex-presidents. Carter and Bush 1 will probably have the good fortune of dying before Trump joins their circle, but Bush 2 and Obama might have to tolerate Trump for a long time.

Bush 2 might grudgingly find Trump tolerable because he makes Bush look so much better in retrospect, but I can't imagine Obama and Trump ever pretending to bury the hatchet.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Kraken »

Here's a good summary from Seth Abramson of ways in which this could all go down. (It's from yesterday, but I don't think it's been posted here -- apologies if I somehow missed it.)

1/ Trump cannot legally fire Bob Mueller. First, because that authority resides exclusively with Acting Attorney General Rosenstein; second, because even as head of the Executive Branch, Trump cannot exert his power for a criminal purpose. Firing Bob Mueller would be Obstruction.

2/ Mueller has seen all the evidence against Trump and his associates; the public has seen only a fraction of it. I can say—as a former criminal attorney and investigator researching this case since 2016—no exculpatory evidence has been found. All evidence points toward guilt.

3/ Further confirmation of this is that we don't hear from the media or Congressional Republicans any evidence—even claims—that Trump and his associates are innocent. We hear nothing but scurrilous attacks against the investigators. This is what people who know they're caught do.

4/ For these reasons—and because Trump can't legally fire Mueller—you should assume the Special Counsel will refuse to be fired directly by Trump if Trump attempts to do this. Instead, he will issue a statement saying that authority to end his investigation lies with Rosenstein.

5/ Rosenstein just made clear, via Congressional testimony, that he won't fire Mueller without cause, and presently sees no cause to do so. What this means is that Trump would have to fire Rosenstein in order to rid himself of Mueller. But Trump may elect more dangerous options.

6/ Trump knows firing Rosenstein and ordering Rachel Brand (next up at DOJ) to fire Mueller is a fool's errand: first, because Brand would likely refuse, as Mueller has done nothing to warrant being fired; second, because she's read history books—she knows this is Nixonian graft.

7/ While Trump could eventually find someone at DOJ to fire Mueller—he can just keep firing attorneys until he gets a stooge to do his bidding as the late Robert Bork did for Nixon—he could also seek recourse in an executive order he issued that arguably lets him name his own AG.

8/ Or, he could select the most dangerous option—one Nixon himself executed once Cox was gone. That would be declaring himself able to fire Mueller and then sending federal law enforcement officers to remove Bob Mueller and his agents from their office and lock down the premises.

9/ If Trump chooses Option A—firing everyone until he finds a stooge—it'll take many days and many firings and be a fiasco; Option B (using his own executive order) is substantially easier; whereas Option C could lead to some harrowing televised scenes of forcible federal action.

10/ Mueller is a good man; his whole his biography confirms it. He could acquiesce to being fired to avoid a fracture in the rule of law; he could seek a court injunction to prevent his firing; he could contact Congressional allies and pray a bill is passed to prevent his firing.

11/ Here's what we know: Trump doesn't have the power to fire Mueller, and Rosenstein won't do it. Trump arguably has the power to install an AG who will fire Mueller and Congress arguably has the power to pass a bill to stop it. Mueller will try to protect America's rule of law.

12/ One other thing is clear: Congressional Republicans lack the will—or, in the House, the interest—to stand up to Trump should he overturn the rule of law. That said, Democrats would only need a small number of Republican allies in the two houses of Congress to protect Mueller.

13/ Trump is guilty of everything people believe him guilty of; all the evidence establishes it. So we must predict his actions with that in mind.

This is a man who conspired with the Russians to steal an election, and now holds the reins of power at the seat of power he stole.

14/ The rumors over the past few days are that Kushner may soon be indicted; certainly, Mueller asking Kushner to answer questions on what Flynn said to him at a time Mueller knew—but Kushner didn't—Flynn was cooperating suggests Mueller has gotten Kushner to incriminate himself.

15/ The point is that Trump believes—rightly or not—this investigation is about to reach another of his right-hand men (two are already charged), this one a family member. And Trump knows he is guilty. And he's not emotionally well. So it's not clear what Trump is willing to do.

16/ The best-case scenario here: Trump keeps firing people at the DOJ—all of whom refuse to do his illegal bidding—until he runs out of political capital in Congress. The worst-case scenario: Trump uses federal agents to physically remove Mueller and his team from their offices.

17/ The second best-case scenario: this ends up in the courts—eventually SCOTUS—where we can assume (or at least pray) rule of law will prevail. The second worst-case scenario: Trump installs his own AG, who then fires Mueller, ending actual (but preserving apparent) rule of law.

18/ The middle-case scenarios are harder to see—but involve tepid Congressional action to move the probe forward with a new Trump-friendly Special Counsel, leading to a scam investigation; or, Congress ends the probe and creates its own political probe to (sort-of) "investigate."

19/ Understand that *all* of these scenarios *except* the unfettered continuation of the Mueller probe are a significant blow against the rule of law in America, to the point that Trump becomes as much a monarch as a president—in actuality above the normal operation of our laws.

20/ Any American who thinks there's even a 1% chance Trump conspired with our foes should want that 1% possibility 100% investigated. The only reason to want the Mueller probe ended entirely is because you want Donald Trump to reign over America as a king rather than a president.

21/ What all this means is that if Trump takes *any* action against Mueller, our rule of law is *gravely* threatened. Even if you think Mueller's work needs careful oversight, there's already a *Trump appointee*—Rosenstein—who's doing that and certifies the probe has been honest.

22/ So all Americans, no matter their political stripe or what chance you think there is that Trump is guilty—1% or 90%—should do what Americans did during the Watergate Era if Trump fires Mueller: take to the streets and swarm Congress' phone lines until rule of law is restored.

23/ If this happens, you can expect peaceful disruptions in American life for *some time*. Mass protests that block highways and buildings and shut down parts of cities; mass walkouts from jobs and schools; a media atmosphere in which only one story—this one—can be or is covered.

24/ The key here is that the protests must not and cannot stop until rule of law is restored: a Mueller investigation, overseen (as now) by Trump appointee Rosenstein, which has unfettered access to evidence and witnesses in an effort to find the truth—and justice—for Americans.

PS/ Other things to keep in mind: Mueller *could* speed up his indictments, and/or agents of his could (presumably without his approval) leak inculpatory evidence about Trump and his associates, in an effort to underscore the legitimacy of—and seek to protect—their investigation.

PS2/ Democrats (perhaps even with a few GOP allies) could go into a "lockdown scenario" in which they use every procedural measure at their disposal to shut down all operations of government—except emergency operations—until such time as Congress passes a bill protecting Mueller.

PS3/ American and international media could begin reporting, in real time, Americans' dramatic and quickly changing reactions to Trump's actions—which would be critical because firing Mueller would *almost certainly* drop Trump's approval ratings into the mid- (or even low) 20s.

PS4/ Trump's ability to appear in public for rallies or other public events may be severely curtailed due to the protests; reporters would be likely to shout questions at him during any public appearance. His presidency would be paralyzed—in Congress, in public, and in the media.

PS5/ Because firing Mueller would shake the foundations of American law and democracy to their core, we would expect *dramatic* market volatility for the entirety of the crisis. Likewise, we would expect a leaky White House and Congress to go from "leaky" to a veritable *deluge*.

SOURCES/ If you still need evidence of collusion, here it is. But as you read it, remember: (1) this is a *fraction* of the evidence Mueller has; (2) this only needs to make you 1% fearful Trump is guilty—as that's enough to 100% support an investigation.

SOURCES/ Here's the second-ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Jackie Speier (D-CA), discussing new rumors in Washington, D.C. that Trump plans to wait until all of Congress has left the capital to fire Special Counsel Bob Mueller.

Rep. Speier: ‘Rumor on the Hill’ is Trump to Fire Mueller Before Christmas
Congresswoman Jackie Speier (D-San Mateo) told KQED Newsroom on Friday that she believes Republicans are trying to shut down the House Intelligence Committee’s probe into alleged Russian interferenc
https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2017/12/15/co ... sia-probe/

NOTE/ I don't care if you read clickbait misrepresenting my background, views, and record. My knowledge of how criminals think comes from representing thousands of them—and my research is from major media—but feel free to ignore me and do your own research. This is too important.

NOTE2/ Many are writing to say they hope this goes the other way—that if Trump moves to fire Mueller directly, via Rosenstein or via a new Acting AG, Congress moves toward removal via either the 25th Amendment or impeachment. All I can say is: *please* do not depend on this take.
Twitter thread is here, if you want to get lost in the comments.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Scoop20906 »

I've got leave built up so I am considering heading into DC to congress to protest if this happens.


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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by pr0ner »

Abramson's way of "reporting" continues to irritate me to no end.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Kraken »

pr0ner wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:46 am Abramson's way of "reporting" continues to irritate me to no end.
Twitter irritates me to no end. Especially since Trump.

Is Abramson considered reliable/sane? IDK how much stock to put in that source.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Holman »

Abramson is rightly called hyperbolic and alarmist, but at least he never claims the secret sources and clairvoyant insight of a Louise Mensch. He's regarded as a Twitterdrama diva but not (AFAIK) a charlatan.

This thread is just laying out Trump's options, though, and it seems pretty clear that these are they. It could be called alarmist in ignoring the possibility that Trump could just leave the investigation alone and let Mueller find him innocent, but that's not what Trump's allies and surrogates are telling us to expect.
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RunningMn9
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by RunningMn9 »

RunningMn9 wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:47 pm To clarify, Trump can’t fire Mueller. He has to fire the people that won’t fire Mueller, and then appoint people and have them confirmed that will fire Mueller.
To clarify further, yes Trump can directly fire Mueller.

There's a lengthy twitter thread by one of the lawyers that wrote the Special Counsel rules, and they allow the President to fire Mueller directly. He also notes that doing so would immediately trigger a Constitutional Crisis. Which I don't agree with, since I think that the GOP would be complicit in the firing and nothing at all would happen from it.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by Remus West »

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:16 am
RunningMn9 wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:47 pm To clarify, Trump can’t fire Mueller. He has to fire the people that won’t fire Mueller, and then appoint people and have them confirmed that will fire Mueller.
To clarify further, yes Trump can directly fire Mueller.

There's a lengthy twitter thread by one of the lawyers that wrote the Special Counsel rules, and they allow the President to fire Mueller directly. He also notes that doing so would immediately trigger a Constitutional Crisis. Which I don't agree with, since I think that the GOP would be complicit in the firing and nothing at all would happen from it.
Except that "nothing" would be the crisis. The step needed to move us from the little piece of Democracy that we have left into full fledged authoritarianism.
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Re: The Trump Investigation Thread

Post by pr0ner »

Holman wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:20 am Abramson is rightly called hyperbolic and alarmist, but at least he never claims the secret sources and clairvoyant insight of a Louise Mensch. He's regarded as a Twitterdrama diva but not (AFAIK) a charlatan.
You can tell that the Twitter drama diva stuff is starting to get to him by his NOTE1. He's been called out lately in some tweets I've seen for posting clearly inaccurate material, and I think he feels he's above it because he thinks he so meticulously sources everything.

Wiki does say this about him:
After the 2016 U.S. presidential election, Abramson received widespread attention for his tweets alleging collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russian government. Several media publications have described Abramson as a conspiracy theorist, a label that Abramson himself rejects. Abramson's theory is that Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin made an agreement in 2013 whereby Trump would run for president and cause disruption in U.S. politics, and that Putin would in return greenlight the multibillion dollar Trump Tower Moscow deal. According to the Washington Post, Abramson's "evidence isn’t so clear cut. Abramson cites a 2014 tweet from a Russian lifestyle blogger (“I’m sure @realDonaldTrump will be great president! We’ll support you from Russia!“) as “proof” that Trump’s companions on the Moscow trip knew he’d run for president long before he announced it. But this ignores that Trump was openly flirting with a presidential run for years." The Washington Post notes that facts tend to be "sprinkled into his threads with more fantastic sounding claims," and "Abramson’s tweets link copiously to sources, but they range in quality from investigative news articles to off-the-wall Facebook posts and tweets from Tom Arnold."
There has to be better ways to present all this than epic Tweetstorms with post scripts and notes and everything else. It makes him come across as really self important.
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