The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:59 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:55 pm New reports are stating that Trump repeatedly asked Ukrainian officials to work with Rudy "My nose won't go further up there, sir!" Giuliani on the Biden thing, but says he never made withholding aid a part of it.

I assume he never does. He wants to be mob boss where loyalty is what he values most. You do what needs to be done without ever being told.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:39 pm

Except right after these phone calls he tried to withhold aid, right?

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:56 pm

Giuliani says "No I didn't" then turns around and says "Of course I did!" in the same interview.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/19/politics ... index.html

Also Trump makes no sense...who woulda thought it.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/20/politics ... index.html

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:37 pm

This may very well be my favorite example of the world’s dumbest lawyer in action.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:44 pm

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:11 pm

Is Warren the war chief they need? Maybe but until they don't I expect the Dems to wimp out. Even with all this Pelosi is just talking about passing a law to say a President can be indicted. That doesn't even make a lick of sense now. Pathetic.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:02 pm

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:17 pm

I would love to see Trump and Giuliani try to figure out a revolving door. That would be an amusing few hours.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:51 am

Holman wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:02 pm

I think it is possible to know there are many people listening to a call and to still be spied on.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:59 am

If he’s aware numerous people are listening in AND uses that as a point that he wouldn’t say anything wrong (as he clearly said), then he’s just lending credence to the belief that he DID say something wrong with this new angle. Otherwise it wouldn’t be spying, it would simply be a lie.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:13 am

Come now, hepcat. You''re trying to play Go Fish against someone playing three-dimensional chess. It's almost frightening - the level of his genius compared to your laughable analysis.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:01 am

Maybe playing Civ 5 against someone playing Leisure Suit Larry.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:49 am

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:00 pm

She's wrong but it is a scandal. Like the UK the national leadership on both sides is terrible but also like them for different reasons. Not doing anything as he continues to break the law is unacceptable. At this point, a goal for impeachment might as well be to tie him up and keep him under control until the election. That'd be a good result. Otherwise, we will have a federal investigation of the candidate and a broken 4th estate who will go along with it. FFS these assholes *are still talking about the Biden angle even though it was debunked already*. We are in deep, deep shit and these wimps aren't even going to go down putting up a fight at least.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:03 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:00 pm She's wrong but it is a scandal. Like the UK the national leadership on both sides is terrible but also like them for very different reasons.

+1

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:43 pm

Maybe it was innocent. I mean this looks a lot like innocence.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:51 pm

Yup. That's what I was just coming to post:

President Trump confirmed to reporters on the White House South Lawn Sunday that he discussed Joe Biden and his son during a phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on July 25.

"The conversation I had was largely congratulatory, with largely corruption — all of the corruption taking place — largely the fact that we don't want our people like Vice President Biden and his son creating to the corruption already in the Ukraine and Ukraine has got a lot of problems. The new president is saying that he's going to be able to rid the country of corruption, and I said that would be a great thing, we had a great conversation."

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:10 pm

I know Kurt Eichenwald is out of favor, but would people consider this an accurate summary of the BidenJr-Ukraine affair? I haven't followed it.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:25 pm

That is about the meat of it. It was debunked long ago. This is pizza gate like where right wing agitators and the President have drummed it up to smear the Dem frontrunner. And as usual you have some reckless news outlets who do a poor job explaining it.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:30 pm

Saw the orange turd complaing about it all and saying something about corruption doesn't belong in the government. Yet he thinks its ok to use corruption to find corruption.

69% polled dont like him personally. So 31% are ok with him and his shit.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:54 pm

The thought that Trump would attack anybody's integrity would be laughable in a rational universe.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:09 pm

To be fair, Trump isn't trying to use corruption to find corruption. He's trying to use corruption to cast aspersions in order to create the appearance of corruption.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:41 pm

The Dems in the House being likened to wimps...well to be fair...a quote from a member that they have been weak is front page on WaPo now. They definitely deserve it. Hopefully it will shame them into doing anything at all but I wont hold my breath. This system is being strangled right in front of us and no one will stand up for us. Maybe it is time to start talking about taking to the streets to go push for it ourselves.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:51 am

Pelosi is trying to have it both ways - give the appearance if carefully looking into everything while dragging her feet until election time when she can throw up her hands and say "Oh well, we just ran out of time."

The son of a bitch should have been impeached as soon as they took control of the House.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:22 am

I agree. If she wanted to find the votes, she would. The Speaker of the House is playing games at might be one of the most critical periods in US history.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:46 am

I do think it's worth impeaching Trump over this (well, over lots of stuff, but with this as the centerpiece). I have had a lot of sympathy for the logic against impeachment, because it has zero chance of removing Trump from office and thus is to a large degree a political game with an uncertain impact. That's all still true.

But at the same time I agree that if this isn't impeachable, nothing is. You couldn't write a more impeachable offense than withholding congressionally mandated foreign aid unless the receiving foreign government intervened to help the president against domestic political opponents. And if nothing else I think impeaching Trump over this will signal to low-information voters the seriousness of what Trump has been doing (and I think it helps that the core of Trump's actions here can be explained in sound bites). And, you know...what the hell.

People shouldn't be under any illusion that Trump would be removed from office as a result of this, though. That's still entirely dependent on the 2020 election.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:55 am

Cops don't refuse to arrest people for committing crimes because they think they might not go to jail.

I'm no under no illusions that impeachment would actually remove Trump from office, but not impeaching for an impeachable offense - regardless of the outcome - means there are literally no checks on the powers of the Presidency.

It's Congress' job to hold the executive branch accountable. It's not their job to hold the executive branch accountable only if it's politically expedient.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:34 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:46 am People shouldn't be under any illusion that Trump would be removed from office as a result of this, though. That's still entirely dependent on the 2020 election.

I'm not politically savvy but it seems that either his corruption is worth investigating or it's not. Once investigated it's either worth exposing or it's not. The House sitting on a threat makes the House out to be weak and ineffective at doing their job. If they get things going and the Senate don't do their job, that's a different story and places the burden on the Senate, which still puts the burden of the vote on us in 2020.

I've been in the impeachment camp ever since they steamrolled the last SC justice and IG in positions. OO documents me as joining that camp this past April. I am afraid of no consequences of impeachment but it seems to me we're already at the threat of impeachment is worse for democrats than for the GOP whom are emboldened by what they see as toothlessness.

Impeachment may not be the right thing to do but it's been shit or get off the pot for six months. My legs are getting numb.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:17 am

Like El Guapo, I've been on the fence regarding the wisdom of, versus the need for, impeachment...up to now. Trump's latest abuse of power has tipped me over the edge. You can't just wring your hands and watch the rule of law die without making a stand, however futile it might seem.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:17 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:46 am But at the same time I agree that if this isn't impeachable, nothing is.

Yeah, this is the one that took me over the edge as well. Even though it won't remove him from office, it will hopefully piss him off. At this point, that's really the best we can hope for. Let's face facts: Trump has made himself untouchable by gleefully telling Nixon's ghost to hold his beer while he tops everything the previous most corrupt administration ever did. He will stand over the body of democracy with a smoking gun and a page from his calendar sticking out of his pocket on which he's written "Shoot democracy today" and lie to your face about it...and KellyAnne Goebbels, Rudy "crazy eyes" Giuliani and A.G. Roseanne Barr will pop up out of his pants to shout, "EVERYONE ELSE IS LYING" and "WE ALL LOVE LIVING IN THIS MAN'S PANTS!" every few minutes.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:46 am

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:55 am Cops don't refuse to arrest people for committing crimes because they think they might not go to jail.

I'm no under no illusions that impeachment would actually remove Trump from office, but not impeaching for an impeachable offense - regardless of the outcome - means there are literally no checks on the powers of the Presidency.

It's Congress' job to hold the executive branch accountable. It's not their job to hold the executive branch accountable only if it's politically expedient.

I assume that if 0% of people arrested ultimately went to jail, that the police would absolutely change the way that they do their jobs (and arrest rates would plummet).

Also, I think we are already at a point where there are almost no checks on the powers of the presidency from Congress (there are still limitations by the judicial branch), and I don't think impeachment is likely to change that reality.

Like I said, I think it's worth doing over this Ukraine scandal, but at the end of the day it's going to be a moral act and a political statement, and not much else. The extent to which it will hold Trump "accountable" is hazy at best.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:36 pm

El Guapo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:46 am

I assume that if 0% of people arrested ultimately went to jail, that the police would absolutely change the way that they do their jobs (and arrest rates would plummet).

You don't have to assume. Talk to any copper working in Chicago. Proactive policing died right after the desire to prosecute.

[/Angry aside]

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:43 pm

El Guapo wrote:I assume that if 0% of people arrested ultimately went to jail, that the police would absolutely change the way that they do their jobs (and arrest rates would plummet).

When it comes to impeachment, we're working from a hell of a small sample size.

The only guarantee that "nothing will happen" is to do nothing. Otherwise I think it's foolhardy to assume anything in politics. That's what we all did in 2016 and look where that got us.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:54 pm

We seem to have reached the end of Democracy in America. Or rather we reached it several years ago when a certain someone refused to do anything other than obstruct for political gain and became more powerful because of it. America is dead. Hopefully 'Murica isn't far behind.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:58 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:43 pm
El Guapo wrote:I assume that if 0% of people arrested ultimately went to jail, that the police would absolutely change the way that they do their jobs (and arrest rates would plummet).
When it comes to impeachment, we're working from a hell of a small sample size.

The only guarantee that "nothing will happen" is to do nothing. Otherwise I think it's foolhardy to assume anything in politics. That's what we all did in 2016 and look where that got us.

I'm not going based on past impeachments, I'm going based on how the GOP has operated (and continues to operate) under Trump. Trump has borderline confessed to the Ukraine scandal, and the only Congressional Republican willing so far to even say that Trump should release the whistleblower complaint is Romney. Almost no Republicans have been even willing to tsk tsk Trump about what he's done, and even those people have been and are being promptly pushed out of the party and of office. But now all of the sudden 20 GOP senators from mostly red states are going to be willing to vote to convict Trump? And that's assuming that no Democratic senators defect - gets harder if that number is not zero obviously.

The odds aren't literally 0%. But they are on the order of .01%.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:01 pm

This is already going into the classic Trump/Fox News approach

1. Deny it ever happened
2. Admit it happened but that it was perfectly okay
3. Claim you want to information released
4. Accuse the other side of doing what you are accused of (His fav. thing in the world to do)
5. Spin the news to make it seem like everything is a ok
7. Refuse to provide information that you previously said you wanted to for bullshit reasons
8. Profit....

I have no hopes that anything useful will come from all this.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:14 pm

I think impeachment does three things that make it worth doing, regardless of whether or not Trump is removed from office:

1. It puts on record that Democrats stood up to the abuses of power of this administration, and thereby does not set a precedent for future administrations to act with impunity.

2. It puts on record that Republicans supported and aided this administration's abuses of power.

3. It potentially weakens Trump heading into the 2020 election. I know many people argue the opposite - that it strengthens him - but I don't see the evidence for that. Trump's popularity has never surged in the midst of his many scandals, and he couldn't even capitalize on the lack of repercussion from the Mueller report. I feel it's highly unlikely that swing voters who already overwhelmingly disapprove of Trump now would suddenly have a change of heart and feel that he's being unfairly attacked via an impeachment investigation.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:19 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:14 pm I think impeachment does three things that make it worth doing, regardless of whether or not Trump is removed from office:

1. It puts on record that Democrats stood up to the abuses of power of this administration, and thereby does not set a precedent for future administrations to act with impunity.

2. It puts on record that Republicans supported and aided this administration's abuses of power.

3. It potentially weakens Trump heading into the 2020 election. I know many people argue the opposite - that it strengthens him - but I don't see the evidence for that. Trump's popularity has never surged in the midst of his many scandals, and he couldn't even capitalize on the lack of repercussion from the Mueller report. I feel it's highly unlikely that swing voters who already overwhelmingly disapprove of Trump now would suddenly have a change of heart and feel that he's being unfairly attacked via an impeachment investigation.

I agree with most of this, but I have real doubts about the bolded / underlined part. Doesn't this show exactly how an administration can act with impunity, as long as you maintain your political base?

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:38 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:14 pm I think impeachment does three things that make it worth doing, regardless of whether or not Trump is removed from office:

1. It puts on record that Democrats...

2. It puts on record that Republicans supported and aided this administration's abuses of power.

That's me. Put everyone on record. If I can't affect history and I'm not privy to what is going on then I want every last member of Congress to fight for knowledge and go on record. If I can't judge those whose laws I must obey at least history can. And that starts with a decision. Impeach or admit nothing is impeach worthy. Not politically speaking, but that none of his actions are worthy considering him a legal disgrace to the office.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:41 pm

FWIW, putting everyone "on the record" about Trump potentially puts many of the recently flipped D seats in traditionally R districts in jeopardy.