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The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

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malchior
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:48 pm

Holman wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:06 pm
I'm kind of wondering if Pelosi's strategy is to slow-roll the process until impeachment hearings dominate the campaign season, setting the stage for November and denying the senate a chance to acquit until after the election.
It could be but I honestly think they simply are unable to control the story, they know that, and are too afraid of the risks. I almost dont blame them for their inability to do so. Especially with journalism dying in front of our eyes.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Kurth » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:58 pm

Does anyone think that maybe the polls are reflecting a reluctance to impeach because (1) as put forth very well by Grif, it’s pointless with this divided Congress; and/or (2) Americans are very hesitant to kick a duly elected president out of office?

Trump sucks. He’s literally the worst. But he won the election and is the President. Without a smoking gun that he committed a serious crime (not one that he committed a n broad daylight), most Americans would rather vote him out than have Congress (also super shitty and not respected as an institution) decide his fate.

I feel in my gut that impeachment is the wrong way to go if we want to get rid of Trump. And this whole “Constitutional duty to impeach” argument is total and complete bunk given the current state of play. But I still find a part of myself hoping Pelosi goes forward with impeachment. That’s how much I hate Trump. But that’s the lizard brain talking.

Impeachment is a dead end and not helpful if the goal is to make Trump no more than a 1 term President.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:11 pm

Kurth wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:58 pm
Trump sucks. He’s literally the worst. But he won the election and is the President. Without a smoking gun that he committed a serious crime (not one that he committed a n broad daylight), most Americans would rather vote him out than have Congress (also super shitty and not respected as an institution) decide his fate.
There is a smoking gun. The Mueller report details several crimes. As analyzed by over a 1000 former prosecutors now.
I feel in my gut that impeachment is the wrong way to go if we want to get rid of Trump. And this whole “Constitutional duty to impeach” argument is total and complete bunk given the current state of play. But I still find a part of myself hoping Pelosi goes forward with impeachment. That’s how much I hate Trump. But that’s the lizard brain talking.
I agree that it isnt a duty. Instead it is moreso an ethical imperative. We have explicit evidence of crimes documented, essentially referred to Congress for this purpose, and only one way to attempt to provide justice to the wronged party (the America people).
Impeachment is a dead end and not helpful if the goal is to make Trump no more than a 1 term President.
Maybe but not trying essentially cedes criminality as an implicit power of the White House. That should be scary to everyone. It is more than just removal of a President at stake.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Kraken » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:12 pm

Holman wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:43 pm
Grifman wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:22 pm
Holman wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:06 pm
Grifman wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:38 pm
That's being naive. What does "putting them on the record" really do?
"My opponent actually voted to acquit Trump despite -overwhelming- evidence of his crimes" is much stronger than "My opponent likes Trump."
Again, who are you going to convince? Republicans support him with 90% favorability. Democrats hate just as much. You've yet to explain how exactly this will move the needle in any significant way. You need to show that impeachment will move the needle for any significant or important group of voters. So far no one has done that.
Are there only two kinds of voter?

The independents are everything, and most of them are low-information enough that a sustained impeachment inquiry could seriously educate them. Most Americans know very little of the facts discussed by politically engaged types.

Also, I support the tools of justice being employed for the sake of justice.
Unfortunately for this argument, independent doesn't mean undecided, and they aren't split down the middle. They are strongly against impeachment. Are they persuadable? Maybe, IF Democrats can convince them that impeachment isn't a political power play. That's where Pelosi's insistence on building an airtight case on clear and overwhelming evidence comes in.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:07 am

Kurth wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:58 pm
Does anyone think that maybe the polls are reflecting a reluctance to impeach because (1) as put forth very well by Grif, it’s pointless with this divided Congress; and/or (2) Americans are very hesitant to kick a duly elected president out of office?
No.

Nixon polled better than drumpf is currently.

malchior has the rest covered.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Pyperkub » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:42 am

There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:23 am

Pyperkub wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:42 am
Nancy rocks! Eyes on the ball!
Pelosi has long argued that certain conditions must be met before Democrats begin impeachment — public support and strong bipartisan backing, neither of which have so far materialized.
Both are essentially impossible. Public support is around 41% right now. 20% more than Nixon before impeachment hearing began and they didn't have the evidence laid out the same way as the Mueller report has. They only had vague outlines. *AND* bipartisan support. Preposterous. She has set impossible conditions and I think she will be eventually seen as on the wrong side of history on this one. I think we are seeing the crack's here. In effect, I have to believe the story that Nadler is fighting with Pelosi over this was intentionally put out there. She has most of leadership behind her right now but she risks splitting the caucus if this turns into a backroom fight. Especially if the investigatory process drags out without results.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:55 am

“I don’t want to see him impeached, I want to see him in prison,” Pelosi said, according to multiple Democratic sources familiar with the meeting. Instead of impeachment, Pelosi still prefers to see Trump defeated at the ballot box and then prosecuted for his alleged crimes, according to the sources.
The perfect is the enemy of the good.

He can still go to prison if he is impeached but she wants him in jail in 2021. So that's the only path.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by ImLawBoy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:02 am

There's a strong chance of a pardon if he's impeached and Pence takes office.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:41 am

ImLawBoy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:02 am
There's a strong chance of a pardon if he's impeached and Pence takes office.
If he's impeached and [?]. Because just impeachment wouldn't lead to Pence in office, right? Or is it the preemptive pardon were talking about where Trump resigns and Pence pardons him for all potential charges? I'd imagine the criminal case would go way past Pence's tenure but if he can do the preemptive pardon...

Also, what about the NY AG case? No presidential pardon works there AFAIK.



Impeach the guy, win 2020, send him to prison. How are these mutually exclusive?
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by ImLawBoy » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:50 am

I meant impeachment and removal, obviously.

And I forgot about state crimes, although I'm sure they'd try to make an argument a president can pardon for state crimes, too.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Jeff V » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:39 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:50 am
I meant impeachment and removal, obviously.

And I forgot about state crimes, although I'm sure they'd try to make an argument a president can pardon for state crimes, too.
OK, so say NY orders him released but oooopsie, he is sent to the execution chamber instead. Can those responsible for this obviously innocent administrative error be pardoned from any wrongdoing?

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:54 pm

WaPo
The chairman of the House Judiciary Committee said Monday that he has reached a deal with the Justice Department to obtain “key evidence” related to special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s investigation into whether President Trump obstructed justice.

The deal, announced by Chairman Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.), appears to forestall contempt proceedings against Attorney General William P. Barr, who has been locked in a standoff with Nadler and House Democratic leaders over access to redacted parts of Mueller’s report as well as evidence gathered during his two-year investigation.

Nadler said in a statement that the Justice Department would be “opening Robert S. Mueller III’s most important files to us, providing us with key evidence that the Special Counsel used to assess whether the President and others obstructed justice or were engaged in other misconduct.”
...
The House is expected to proceed with a vote Tuesday on legislation authorizing the Judiciary Committee to seek court enforcement of its subpoenas. The committee said Monday that further action could be necessary to secure documents and testimony not covered under the new agreement.

The agreement does not address the committee’s request for testimony from former White House Counsel Donald McGahn — a key source for Mueller’s report who has declined to testify, citing the wishes of Trump administration lawyers.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:05 pm

Nothing to see here. Nothing at all odd about the number two person at DOJ personally intervening to keep Manafort from being transferred to Rikers.


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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:07 pm

Nothing will be done about it.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Smoove_B » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:57 pm

malchior wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:05 pm
Nothing to see here. Nothing at all odd about the number two person at DOJ personally intervening to keep Manafort from being transferred to Rikers.
And here's the letter that was sent:



and the reponse (linked PDF)

You're right - this is totally normal. Nothing to see here.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Smoove_B » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:28 am



Just business as usual while the White House lawyer objects to questions being asked of Hope Hicks.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:36 pm

These investigations are totally going to get to the bottom of things! Plus the press will definitely tell this story in a cohesive manner that explains the oddity of these tactics. Oh these weren't televised? I'm shocked, super shocked actually that the Dems are getting rolled by these guys...
Last edited by malchior on Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:38 pm

malchior wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:36 pm
These investigations are totally going to get to the bottom of things! Plus the press will definitely tell this story in a cohesive manner that explains the oddity of these tactics...
It's ok - all we have to do is label these hearings as impeachment hearings and suddenly everyone will get more cooperative. It's foolproof!

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:39 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:38 pm
malchior wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:36 pm
These investigations are totally going to get to the bottom of things! Plus the press will definitely tell this story in a cohesive manner that explains the oddity of these tactics...
It's ok - all we have to do is label these hearings as impeachment hearings and suddenly everyone will get more cooperative. It's foolproof!
They would be covered wall to wall and certainly televised. But yeah these committees getting no cooperation in closed door sessions and yelling at empty chairs is totally effective in any way.
Last edited by malchior on Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Jeff V » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:40 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:28 am
Just business as usual while the White House lawyer objects to questions being asked of Hope Hicks.
She's probably saving it for her sure-to-be-blockbuster tell-all book.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:52 pm

malchior wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:39 pm
El Guapo wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:38 pm
malchior wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:36 pm
These investigations are totally going to get to the bottom of things! Plus the press will definitely tell this story in a cohesive manner that explains the oddity of these tactics...
It's ok - all we have to do is label these hearings as impeachment hearings and suddenly everyone will get more cooperative. It's foolproof!
They would be covered wall to wall and certainly televised. But yeah these committees getting no cooperation in closed door sessions and yelling at empty chairs is totally effective in any way.
They can require that the hearings be public anyhow - not really sure why they didn't here. I would assume that given this response they will be less likely to have closed door hearings in the future.

Also while I am confident that an impeachment trial would get wall-to-wall coverage (though I expect that McConnell would keep cameras out of the impeachment trial), I am more skeptical that pre-impeachment hearings would get marginally different or more coverage.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Smoove_B » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:55 pm

You want to know what would get coverage? You want to know what would make a difference? Putting Trump in front of the committee and having him testify. That is what America needs to see.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:26 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:55 pm
You want to know what would get coverage? You want to know what would make a difference? Putting Trump in front of the committee and having him testify. That is what America needs to see.
100% agree. Trump would never voluntarily agree to appear, of course, but that's exactly the kind of battle that is worth fighting.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by stessier » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:32 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:26 pm
Smoove_B wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:55 pm
You want to know what would get coverage? You want to know what would make a difference? Putting Trump in front of the committee and having him testify. That is what America needs to see.
100% agree. Trump would never voluntarily agree to appear, of course, but that's exactly the kind of battle that is worth fighting.
I disagree - I think he would totally agree. He thinks he's smarter than everyone and can talk his way out of anything. And I think every lawyer and administration official he has would throw their bodies in front of it to keep it from happening.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Isgrimnur » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:35 pm

If Hillary can do it...
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by El Guapo » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:42 pm

stessier wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:32 pm
El Guapo wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:26 pm
Smoove_B wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:55 pm
You want to know what would get coverage? You want to know what would make a difference? Putting Trump in front of the committee and having him testify. That is what America needs to see.
100% agree. Trump would never voluntarily agree to appear, of course, but that's exactly the kind of battle that is worth fighting.
I disagree - I think he would totally agree. He thinks he's smarter than everyone and can talk his way out of anything. And I think every lawyer and administration official he has would throw their bodies in front of it to keep it from happening.
They managed to keep him from talking with Mueller's office, so I expect that they will be able to keep from agreeing to testify other than under legal compulsion (and who knows even then). But the 1% chance that he rushes into testimony is an upside.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by stessier » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:43 pm

There's not enough popcorn in the world for that eventuality.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by hepcat » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:48 pm

stessier wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:32 pm
El Guapo wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:26 pm
Smoove_B wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:55 pm
You want to know what would get coverage? You want to know what would make a difference? Putting Trump in front of the committee and having him testify. That is what America needs to see.
100% agree. Trump would never voluntarily agree to appear, of course, but that's exactly the kind of battle that is worth fighting.
I disagree - I think he would totally agree. He thinks he's smarter than everyone and can talk his way out of anything. And I think every lawyer and administration official he has would throw their bodies in front of it to keep it from happening.
This. By most accounts, the overwhelming reason he wasn't allowed to testify in person with Mueller is because his lawyers, family, friends, people outside a mall in Peoria, fictional characters from Disney films and house cats all know he'd perjure himself before he was even seated.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Smoove_B » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:03 pm

All we need to do is tell him that he'd set records with the ratings - it would be the most watched TV show in the history of America, maybe more than the Superbowl. Nothing would make me happier than to watch him testify and answer questions lasered in by professionals. Nothing.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Pyperkub » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:59 pm

Looks like Roger Stone could be waiting out the start of his trial from jail if prosecutors have their way:
"In the past several days, Stone posted statements on social media about this case and the special counsel's investigation and appears to have specifically targeted those posts at major media outlets," prosecutors said in a court filing Thursday.
"On or about June 18 and 19, 2019, the defendant posted to Instagram and Facebook, commenting about this case and inviting news organizations to cover the issue," prosecutors wrote. "This is a violation of the current conditions of release."
Stone was barred by Judge Amy Berman Jackson from making public statements about his case in February, after he posted on Instagram a photo of the judge with crosshairs behind her head. He apologized to Jackson, but she still warned him of severe consequences if he crossed the line of the court's orders.

A violation of his bail terms, which allow him to live at home in Florida, could mean Stone could await his November trial from jail, depending on how Jackson responds to the prosecutors' request Thursday.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Holman » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:53 pm



Goddammit, this is why you do public hearings.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by malchior » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:29 pm

Holman wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:53 pm
Goddammit, this is why you do public hearings.
In that case she just wouldn't have shown up. It isn't like there are any consequences.

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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:07 pm

More calls for Impeachment from those who actually have a say in the matter:
Today, U.S. Rep. Debbie Mucarsel-Powell (FL-26), member of the Judiciary Committee, issued the following statement regarding the House opening an impeachment inquiry:

“I did not run for office to impeach the President. I ran to lower health care costs, protect our communities from gun violence, and preserve our environment. While my constituents entrusted me to fight for them on these issues every day, they also entrusted me to represent them, protect their rights, and uphold the Constitution.

“As a member of the House Judiciary Committee, I have a heightened sense of duty to be a check and balance on this Administration. In this capacity, I have spent countless hours reading Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s report, analyzing the evidence on which the report is based, and listening to the testimony of constitutional experts, prosecutors, and some of the report’s key players.

“Mueller’s report recounts ten clear and unmistakable attempts by the President to attack the rule of law and obstruct the fair administration of justice. There is an undeniable pattern in the President’s actions that reveals his willingness to lie to the American people, his willingness to place his own interests above those of our democracy, and his willingness to break the law for his personal gain.

“Mueller confirmed these facts in writing.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Grifman » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:22 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:55 pm
You want to know what would get coverage? You want to know what would make a difference? Putting Trump in front of the committee and having him testify. That is what America needs to see.
Good luck with that, he didnt' testify for Mueller, what makes you think this will ever happen? :)
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Skinypupy » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:36 pm

Mueller to testify publicly on July 17.

A somewhat interesting development, although expect it to be nothing but a "NO OBSTRUCTION!! NO COLLUSION!!" circus.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Holman » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:11 am

Skinypupy wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:36 pm
Mueller to testify publicly on July 17.

A somewhat interesting development, although expect it to be nothing but a "NO OBSTRUCTION!! NO COLLUSION!!" circus.
It's going to be a double-header: testimony before the Intel committee and before the Judiciary committee, both the same day, with a closed session after.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Jaymon » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:53 pm

So have those two committees got their hands on the unredacted report?

if not, it might be a very boring q&a session.

"question"
"the answer to that questions is fully laid out in the report I submitted"

"followup question"
"the answer to that question is also fully laid out in the report I submitted"
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Jaymann » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:59 pm

Jaymon wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:53 pm
So have those two committees got their hands on the unredacted report?

if not, it might be a very boring q&a session.

"question"
"the answer to that questions is fully laid out in the report I submitted"

"followup question"
"the answer to that question is also fully laid out in the report I submitted"
Second followup:
Since President Trump obstructed us from getting the unredacted report, please enlighten us.
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Re: The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:31 pm

CNN
The Democrat-led House Ways and Means Committee filed a lawsuit on Tuesday to enforce subpoenas and obtain President Donald Trump's tax returns, an escalation in a fight for the President's personal financial information.

The lawsuit was filed in D.C. District Court against Treasury and the IRS and their respective leaders, Steve Mnuchin and Charles Rettig.

House Ways and Means Chairman Richard Neal is seeking the President's tax returns using a little-known IRS provision known as 6103, which allows the Chairmen of the House Ways and Means Committee and the Senate Finance Committee to request and obtain an individual's tax information for a legitimate legislative purpose.
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