I don't pop into R&P much these days (and my blood pressure is all the better for it ) but I found this article pretty thought provoking. I like David French and generally find his pieces intriguing even if I don't always agree with his analysis.
At an increasing rate, Americans separate themselves into culturally and ideologically homogeneous enclaves. Last week there were two telling incidents — one small, the other more consequential — that spoke volumes about the state of our national life. Let’s start small....
Are you a prostitute Rip? Because you blow the margins more than a $5 hooker. -rshetts2
Much like bravery is acting in spite of fear, being a functioning adult is acting responsibly in the face of temptation. -Isg
The problem is that the divorce or civil war is not based on geography. There are patches of people yelling at each other all over the country. Makes it hard to setup camp and build a wall.
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
Moliere wrote:The problem is that the divorce or civil war is not based on geography. There are patches of people yelling at each other all over the country. Makes it hard to setup camp and build a wall.
I had a conversation with someone about this. He was sure we were headed for fighting. I said I wasn't sure because how would you identify the 'enemy'? Many people aren't even party registered.
I think we are stuck with each other and it is going to be miserable because facts don't matter anymore. This system simply didn't scale and it has failed. Unfortunately there isn't any clean way to fix it. I imagine eventually there will be a crisis that won't be managed but that could be tomorrow or 50 years. Who knows...until then this ship will drift around as the world tries to deal with our dysfunction.
Will we be able to solve problems? Sure some will be easy because everyone agrees on them but only if they align with the wishes of the ultra wealthy. That will be the discriminator I believe over time. And it will lead to increasing unrest and social disorder which very well might be what finally precipitates the ultimate crisis.
Edit: penultimate != ultimate
Last edited by malchior on Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Moliere wrote:The problem is that the divorce or civil war is not based on geography. There are patches of people yelling at each other all over the country. Makes it hard to setup camp and build a wall.
There are always pockets of dissent inside regions that breakaway. Even in the Civil War, not everyone in the South wanted to secede. It would likely be the Center and maybe Gulf states (so the Center isn't landlocked) vs. the Coasts.
stessier wrote:It would likely be the Center and maybe Gulf states (so the Center isn't landlocked) vs. the Coasts.
The coasts don't even need to fight. They just need to stop funding the middle and gulf states. We can still be the USA, but we can invite anyone who doesn't want to move forward in history to go find a house in the swamp somewhere safely out of progress' way.
Black Lives Matter
2021-01-20: The first good night's sleep I had in 4 years.
stessier wrote:It would likely be the Center and maybe Gulf states (so the Center isn't landlocked) vs. the Coasts.
The coasts don't even need to fight. They just need to stop funding the middle and gulf states. We can still be the USA, but we can invite anyone who doesn't want to move forward in history to go find a house in the swamp somewhere safely out of progress' way.
How would this happen? They have disproportionate control over how money is spent.
stessier wrote:It would likely be the Center and maybe Gulf states (so the Center isn't landlocked) vs. the Coasts.
The coasts don't even need to fight. They just need to stop funding the middle and gulf states. We can still be the USA, but we can invite anyone who doesn't want to move forward in history to go find a house in the swamp somewhere safely out of progress' way.
How would this happen? They have disproportionate control over how money is spent.
Presumably the Coasts will un-invite the Center's representatives when the war starts.
French proposes a return to/re-emphasis on Federalism, but I think that might be a bit naive. Others here are touching on it, but it doesn't really solve the issues we're having as a country - it just pushes them down to a smaller level. Federalism might work for those states that are relatively uniform in ideology, but even in a deep blue state like Illinois, the geography is dominated by red once you're outside of the dense population of Chicago and the collar counties. Is French's solution to further split states so that we can have truly red and blue states (just a lot more of them)?
French acknowledges that much of the increasing polarization today comes from the ability of people to isolate themselves among like thinkers, and he's dead on there, I think. Just look at Twitter today and see how the left and right are treating the Comey hearings. To the left, most things are damning bombshells. To the right, there is vindication that there is nothing to see here. Each side takes its view into its own echo chamber and further convinces themselves that they are right. (We might be able to find some of that at work very near to here if we look hard enough. )
The problem with French's approach is that it appears to double down on this. By emphasizing state distinctions, it will further entrench each side into its positions. This won't save the union - eventually it could lead us even further toward the divorce he appears to want to avoid.
Sometimes I wish Lincoln had just let the Confederacy go. We'd have two backwards and impoverished nations to our south instead of one.
The public is more polarized than it's been in my lifetime, with no overlap and little dialog between sides. Some say our time resembles the run-up to the Civil War...except this time around the bad guys are in charge. Like Moliere, I don't see how we get into a classic shootin' war when we aren't neatly divided geographically. But something's got to change somehow, because we are headed for catastrophe now.
I see voters split into two hostile and roughly equal camps. Between those camps lie the 45% of Americans who don't care enough to even vote. Call them the Silent Plurality, maybe. IDK how, but I sense that they are the key to change if they can be awakened.
The right wing has seized control of the electoral process (gerrymandering, voter suppression, possible foreign collusion) so that the left can no longer win elections, even when they have more votes. Wife believes that people will rise up in a new democratic revolution the next time an election is clearly stolen. I doubt that. Conversely, imagine what will happen if/when Trump is removed from office. His supporters are not going to take that peacefully.
However it ultimately turns out -- and I'm not confident that it will resolve within my lifetime -- we're pretty clearly heading for one crisis or another, and I don't think we can simply go back to the pre-Trump universe anymore.
ImLawBoy wrote:
French acknowledges that much of the increasing polarization today comes from the ability of people to isolate themselves among like thinkers, and he's dead on there, I think. Just look at Twitter today and see how the left and right are treating the Comey hearings. To the left, most things are damning bombshells. To the right, there is vindication that there is nothing to see here. Each side takes its view into its own echo chamber and further convinces themselves that they are right. (We might be able to find some of that at work very near to here if we look hard enough. )
This is the big one right here. I have friends on both sides, politically. Thankfully, most of them are not the types to just shun someone for not being like minded.
However, there are LOADS of people in DC who are only interested in being friends with, or dating, or whatever, people who are exactly like they are. I heard someone once say (and this was before things *really* got polarized) that she found out after the fact that a guy she hooked up with was a Republican, and she never would have slept with him if she knew that before hand. I mean, seriously? I know it's DC, and things are more politicized here than most places, but the fact that politics seems to be deal breaker #1 for way too many people (and heaven forbid you dare be a moderate) is truly symbolic of many issues we're facing.
stessier wrote:It would likely be the Center and maybe Gulf states (so the Center isn't landlocked) vs. the Coasts.
The coasts don't even need to fight. They just need to stop funding the middle and gulf states. We can still be the USA, but we can invite anyone who doesn't want to move forward in history to go find a house in the swamp somewhere safely out of progress' way.
Sounds a little (or maybe a lot) like an argument for "states' rights." No?
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Some of the divide as generational, so with older voters gradually passing away and a new generation of post-Millenials come to voting age, the tide may start shifting, at least on local level. Moreover, if AHCA passes, a large fraction of the Republican base in the middle/flyover states will be legitimately too sick (or dead) to vote in a few election cycles.
The Black Plague notably ushered in the Italian Renaissance. At this point we'd need something out a Dan Brown novel to clean up this mess.
Is anybody planning to suffer thru the SotU tonight? Word is that Trump has been rehearsing and actively revising his speech for a week. He's really into these media extravaganzas.
I don't think I can force myself to watch it unless Wife insists. I expect a lot of self-congratulations, praise for NK, scary lies about the border, and a "national emergency" declaration threat. Probably no laundry list of policy priorities because Trump doesn't have any. He will also reportedly stress bipartisanship and unity.
I heard he's going to have a Wheel of Fortune style event with a board and everything. He's going to have McConnell put on a skimpy outfit and turn over letters to reveal such phrases as "Scary Mexicans" and "No Collusion".
I'll be enjoying dinner with some friends at a place with no televisions and nice Japanese whisky.
Will read AARs later.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:25 pm
I heard he's going to have a Wheel of Fortune style event with a board and everything. He's going to have McConnell put on a skimpy outfit and turn over letters to reveal such phrases as "Scary Mexicans" and "No Collusion".
I do think the real "divide" is most likely overblown. We see it because politics is infected with it, and because the extreme partisans are the most vocal in social media.
To be clear, I'm not saying it doesn't exist. Obviously it does; we have ample evidence of it in the closeness of recent elections. But I'm talking about "real world" divide that would lead to actual fighting.
Most people, regardless of how they actually vote, are more concerned with day to day living than party affiliation. Case in point, I work with many Trump supporters, but we don't really talk politics. I depend on them for work stuff, and they depend on me. We talk, we joke, we live life without the R or the D making any actual difference in our daily routine. I'd assume that's how the vast majority of Americans live, and as long as we're at that level, you don't have to worry about an actual civil war.
It's also evident from recent elections that if the divide was as hard and as fast as we tend to believe, then it would simply be a numbers game and one side should be able to hold superiority. Instead, we get fluctuations in the pendulum as we shift back and forth between Democrat and Republican leadership. Obviously there is a sizable contingent of people (whether by choice or simple disinterest) that bounce back and forth.
I guess my point is that I'm just cautioning against the idea that we are a country teetering on the edge of tearing itself apart. I don't know if I buy into that. Trump's approval may be in the high 70s-80s with Republicans, but it's clear the majority of the rest of the country doesn't buy into his bullshit. Partisanship is very high among people who care about politics - for everyone else, meh. Nobody's about to pick up weapons and start shooting each other over it.
hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:56 pm
Witch Hunt!
(I know what you wanted, but I'm not adding the C instead of the H, pal!)
"People who annoy you..."
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:23 pm
Is anybody planning to suffer thru the SotU tonight? Word is that Trump has been rehearsing and actively revising his speech for a week. He's really into these media extravaganzas.
I don't think I can force myself to watch it unless Wife insists. I expect a lot of self-congratulations, praise for NK, scary lies about the border, and a "national emergency" declaration threat. Probably no laundry list of policy priorities because Trump doesn't have any. He will also reportedly stress bipartisanship and unity.
The only way I would watch would be if Mueller were there
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Kraken wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:23 pm
Is anybody planning to suffer thru the SotU tonight? Word is that Trump has been rehearsing and actively revising his speech for a week. He's really into these media extravaganzas.
I don't think I can force myself to watch it unless Wife insists. I expect a lot of self-congratulations, praise for NK, scary lies about the border, and a "national emergency" declaration threat. Probably no laundry list of policy priorities because Trump doesn't have any. He will also reportedly stress bipartisanship and unity.
Not planning on watching but for those who do is there any wager being taken on stressing bipartisanship and unity being the same speech with somehow equating democrats being the proximate cause of problems fill in the blank.
hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:56 pm
Witch Hunt!
(I know what you wanted, but I'm not adding the C instead of the H, pal!)
It's a good thing you went first. C was already on the board. But sorry, the answer was BITCH RUNT
“We can never allow Murania to become desecrated by the presence of surface people. Our lives are serene, our minds are superior, our accomplishments greater. Gene Autry must be captured!!!” - Queen Tika, The Phantom Empire
Any sign of caravans breaking through the door yet? Fox News has a caravan tracker up on their screens right now and they’re showing 6000 of them about a hundred feet from the White House right now. Hannity just put on armor and he’s riding Ingraham around the studio.
Trump: "An economic miracle is taking place in the United States -- and the only thing that can stop it are foolish wars, politics, or ridiculous partisan investigations. If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
She'll be fine. She knows what Drumpf is and she's dealt with him many times. It's the American peoples' heads Drumpf should be worried about. He doesn't have the support he needs and he knows it.
Trump: "An economic miracle is taking place in the United States -- and the only thing that can stop it are foolish wars, politics, or ridiculous partisan investigations. If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
Holy Shit.
Hey, nice economy we have here. Would hate to see something happen to it because of some investigation...
Black lives matter!
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
Trump: "An economic miracle is taking place in the United States -- and the only thing that can stop it are foolish wars, politics, or ridiculous partisan investigations. If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
Holy Shit.
If Roger Stone was indicted for lying to Congress, what about the lying done by Comey, Brennan, Clapper, Lisa Page & lover, Baker and soooo many others? What about Hillary to FBI and her 33,000 deleted Emails? What about Lisa & Peter’s deleted texts & Wiener’s laptop? Much more!
...Funny thing about James Comey. Everybody wanted him fired, Republican and Democrat alike. After the rigged & botched Crooked Hillary investigation, where she was interviewed on July 4th Weekend, not recorded or sworn in, and where she said she didn’t know anything (a lie),...
Did you ever see an investigation more in search of a crime? At the same time Mueller and the Angry Democrats aren’t even looking at the atrocious, and perhaps subversive, crimes that were committed by Crooked Hillary Clinton and the Democrats. A total disgrace!
The Mueller Witch Hunt is a total disgrace. They are looking at supposedly stolen Crooked Hillary Clinton Emails (even though they don’t want to look at the DNC Server), but have no interest in the Emails that Hillary DELETED & acid washed AFTER getting a Congressional Subpoena!
Trump and Kim Jong Un are going on a Honeymoon in Vietnam?
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein "I don't stand by anything." - Trump “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867 “It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
) but I found this article pretty thought provoking. I like David French and generally find his pieces intriguing even if I don't always agree with his analysis. 
